Plug socket etiquette

redcup342

Wondering what you think.

If there are plug sockets placed over parking spaces in an Underground car park and the car park is not attended so there is nobody to ask would you use it to charge with your travel charger ?

Just asking as I've heard half and half, in France people say if the plug socket is there it's Fair game. In Germany and Austria is considered stealing

Whats your opinion ?

Black_Knight

Depends for me.
If it's my apartments underground car park i'd use it until I could get a unit installed, but I wouldn't be thinking "wohoo, free charging for life". If management slow things down or say no, then i've no sympathy, juice up.
If it was just a random car park I wouldn't "freeload", but if I needed it I would plug in (like if there was one in IKEA I totally would).

Closest scenario I have is my in laws house. 80km away, so 160km round trip. The Ioniq will do that no bother in summer, but with a bit of driving around their locale it gets tighter, so I plug in overnight.

ELM327

If there's an available socket in a public area I plug in.
If you provide public access to the socket and it's powered up, you should have access controlled by a switch or a payment method.
I have a charger in my parking spot which is accessible to the public.
A leaf tried to plug in a while ago when I was between EVs. I laughed at them from my window as I have "2FA" access controlled. The power needs to be switched on from the fuseboard (behind the door, so key needed) and also the charger has a key controlled on off switch.

the_amazing_raisin

Personally I'd try to ask, if it's a hotel or guest house or similar. For example I was thinking of travelling to France and renting a mobile home. I checked with the holiday company first if they were okay and once I explained that it wasn't drawing more power than a hairdryer they were fine.

Having said that, if I was desperate then I might just plug in. Especially if it's an apartment complex where the management company is typically uncontactable and just says no to everything anyway

I did hear one story on EV Man where someone came home to find a note in their letterbox saying that a passing EV driver had been desperate for a charge and had plugged in for 30 mins. If they hadn't left the note it's likely the guy would never have noticed. They even left a fiver to pay for the electricity, probably 100x what it was worth.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

If there's an available socket in a public area I plug in.
If you provide public access to the socket and it's powered up, you should have access controlled by a switch or a payment method.
I have a charger in my parking spot which is accessible to the public.
A leaf tried to plug in a while ago when I was between EVs. I laughed at them from my window as I have "2FA" access controlled. The power needs to be switched on from the fuseboard (behind the door, so key needed) and also the charger has a key controlled on off switch.

Did they think it was a public charger or were they just stuck for a charge.


Most importantly, what unit rate did you negotiate, €1/kWh?

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Did they think it was a public charger or were they just stuck for a charge.


Most importantly, what unit rate did you negotiate, €1/kWh?

I'd say they thought it was publicly available


I didnt talk to them, it was funnier to watch!

the_amazing_raisin

redcup342 wrote: »

Just asking as I've heard half and half, in France people say if the plug socket is there it's Fair game. In Germany and Austria is considered stealing

Only in Germany would stealing €2 worth of electricity be considered a major crime :rolleyes:

BENDYBINN

ELM327 wrote: »

I'd say they thought it was publicly available


I didnt talk to them, it was funnier to watch!

Good man!.....laughing at other people’s misfortune
Could at least offered to help.....you’ll be stuck someday too!

redcup342

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Only in Germany would stealing €2 worth of electricity be considered a major crime :rolleyes:

Lots and of things are illegal, I’ve never heard of anyone being done for it and I’m sure the case would be thrown out anyway as a court would say that it should have been adequately secured.

Saying that it’s more of a social etiquette I’m wondering about, so far the Irish seems to be it’s fair game and the Germans think it’s morally wrong 🀣🀣

liamog

I think it's morally wrong, I wouldn't be plugging in to random plug sockets just because I could.
I don't see it as a crime as the cost is so low, but I'd still ask permission before I did it.

the_amazing_raisin

Oh I agree it isn't right to be stealing electricity. I think a lot of people would try to ask first and would only do it if they were desperate.

The one caveat as Black_knight mentioned is if you're living in an apartment. You're paying a management company as part of your residence there and while that doesn't mean you own the facilities, it gives you a more legitimate case to use a socket in the parking area. Particularly if the management company is blocking you installing a charger of your own.

EVM actually did a video on whether it's likely someone is going to rob your electricity to charge an EV (via a home charger in this case)

The long story short is that the risk of being caught dramatically outweighs the potential reward. You'd need to be sitting there for several hours to save any reasonable amount of money which dramatically increases the risk of being caught. This is hugely increased for using a 3 pin charger

So I think beyond the occasional emergency top up, using sockets without permission isn't going to be a big issue

ELM327

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Good man!.....laughing at other people’s misfortune
Could at least offered to help.....you’ll be stuck someday too!

They shouldnt be trying to freeload from my bloody home charger!

liamog

I remember when I first got the e-Up! the woman across the road called round to let us know someone had been using our charger

Black_Knight

What about when getting your car serviced? Would you drop the car off and plug it in before it's taken in? 7kW+ unit, parked for a while at least, getting bent over for a pollen filter change...

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

What about when getting your car serviced? Would you drop the car off and plug it in before it's taken in? 7kW+ unit, parked for a while at least, getting bent over for a pollen filter change...

Well that's different, you're a paying customer and if the mechanic provides chargers then you can legitimately request to use them.

The Nissan garage in Airside for example has a 50kW charger for anyone to use, can't imagine them saying no to a quick top up

Casati

liamog wrote: »

I think it's morally wrong, I wouldn't be plugging in to random plug sockets just because I could.
I don't see it as a crime as the cost is so low, but I'd still ask permission before I did it.

Is stealing a bar of chocolate from a shop not a crime or just morally wrong?

It’s not going to get you 5 years in the Joy but I would have presumed any theft regardless of value of goods stolen is a crime

liamog

I, much like the Irish statute book, define the crime of theft as taking something with the intent to deprive the original owner of it.
So in the case of a chocolate bar, as the shopkeeper no longer has the chocolate bar obviously a crime has been committed.

I am not a lawyer, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Taking electricity without permission is more complicated ...
Have you deprived them of the electrons, not really. But they do probably have to pay a higher bill, I don't think theft has occurred.
You've not entered into a service agreement with the payer of the bill, so there is no crime of illegally obtaining the service.

Like I say, do I think it's wrong, yes, but do I believe a crime has been committed, I'm not sure what would cover it.

Peregrinus

liamog wrote: »

I, much like the Irish statute book, define the crime of theft as taking something with the intent to deprive the original owner of it.
So in the case of a chocolate bar, as the shopkeeper no longer has the chocolate bar obviously a crime has been committed.

I am not a lawyer, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Taking electricity without permission is more complicated ...
Have you deprived them of the electrons, not really. But they do probably have to pay a higher bill, I don't think theft has occurred.
You've not entered into a service agreement with the payer of the bill, so there is no crime of illegally obtaining the service.

Like I say, do I think it's wrong, yes, but do I believe a crime has been committed, I'm not sure what would cover it.

Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1995 s. 15(2) covers it.

(2) (a) A person who dishonestly uses, or causes to be wasted or diverted, any electricity or gas shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) For the purposes of this subsection an act is done by a person dishonestly if the person does the act without claim of legal right.

So, if you plug your appliance into a socket that you don't pay the bills for, and you have no plausible reason to think you have express or implied permission to do so from the person who does pay the bills, or otherwise have the right to do so, you are guilty of the s.15(2) offence.

salamiii

i have a solar charger as long as its sunny my phone charges

Peregrinus

salamiii wrote: »

i have a solar charger as long as its sunny my phone charges

Could take a while to charge the car, though.

ted1

A leaf driver , drove over a kerb and footpath to plug in to a charger at work. Needless to say that airport security where happy to tow it away. Security can turn in and off the charger at reception

It’s theft. As simple as that.

DrPhilG

I have once or twice plugged into a socket in the multi storey car park at work. They charge £6 for the days parking so I was glad to reduce my bill a little.

I wouldn't be arsed for the most part. I only did it because I was late and missed all the free parking at my own building.

Even when the car park was free during Covid lockdown (the first one) I'd rather park outside my building than have a 5 minute walk in the pis$ing rain just to get a few quids worth of electricity.

Casati

DrPhilG wrote: »

I have once or twice plugged into a socket in the multi storey car park at work. They charge £6 for the days parking so I was glad to reduce my bill a little.

I wouldn't be arsed for the most part. I only did it because I was late and missed all the free parking at my own building.

Even when the car park was free during Covid lockdown (the first one) I'd rather park outside my building than have a 5 minute walk in the pis$ing rain just to get a few quids worth of electricity.

If you paid only for parking rather than for electricity then it would appear you have committed a crime?

With more EV's on the road this will become more of a problem for car park operators- what you consider small money to you, might be the profit margin or more for the operator, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of them decided to take a case or potentially test other by-laws and maybe clamp a car that was illegally plugged in.

BENDYBINN

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

Casati

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

They should have proper charging points available but I wouldn’t expect them them to be free

innrain

I agree with you and I think just the idea of plugging into someones socket is wrong. There may be nuances I admit.

Casati wrote: »

With more EV's on the road this will become more of a problem for car park operators- what you consider small money to you, might be the profit margin or more for the operator, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of them decided to take a case or potentially test other by-laws and maybe clamp a car that was illegally plugged in.

Wouldn't be more business minded to install chargers and charge for use? I think the best way to convey a message is to provide the way and then deny some options.

BENDYBINN

Casati wrote: »

They should have proper charging points available but I wouldn’t expect them them to be free

Anyone know what it costs to have public charger installed for businesses?

DrPhilG

Casati wrote: »

If you paid only for parking rather than for electricity then it would appear you have committed a crime?

Have you ever plugged in your mobile while at work?

Casati

DrPhilG wrote: »

Have you ever plugged in your mobile while at work?

I sure you can find plenty of dirt on me but that doesn't detract from the law does it?

innrain

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Anyone know what it costs to have public charger installed for businesses?

The cheapest is in hundreds. The best approach I saw in Dublin is the Lexicon in DLR

https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/389604.jpg
These units are bare minimum. Should you wish billing associated add another couple of hundreds. For a parking business this cost is a laugh.

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

The cheapest is in hundreds. The best approach I saw in Dublin is the Lexicon in DLR

https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/389604.jpg
These units are bare minimum. Should you wish billing associated add another couple of hundreds. For a parking business this cost is a laugh.

Also you can claim a large portion of the expense back against tax under ACA, so the cost for chargers is even cheaper

the_amazing_raisin

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

Absolutely yes, there's even a website that allows you to search for hotels that have chargers (chargehotels.com)

Booking.com also have the ability to filter by EV charging I've noticed as well

Peregrinus

DrPhilG wrote: »

Have you ever plugged in your mobile while at work?

Slight difference, though. A full charge for a mobile phone costs between 0.2 and 0.4 cents, depending on the phone. A full charge for a car costs maybe €10 to €25, or more, depending on the vehicle.

As far as the legislation goes, the theft of any amount of electricity is an offence. But it's relevant to the question of whether you're acting dishonestly, which is an element of the offence. I can readily believe that I have implied permission from my employer to charge my phone at work, at a cost to him of less than half a cent, much more easily than I can believe that I have implied permission to charge my car, which is literally thousands of times more valuable as a perk.

In other words, the difference in cost would be relevant to the credibility of any claim that you honestly believed you were allowed to charge your stuff at your employer's expense.

The other area where the issue would arise would be if you were actually prosecuted. In the absence of special factors, most district judges would throw out a prosecution for a theft whose value would be rounded to zero by any accountant as oppressive and an abuse of the courts.

innrain

Peregrinus wrote: »

A full charge for a car costs anything up to €25, or more, depending on the vehicle.

2kW*8h =16kWh*€.20 = €3.2

Casati

innrain wrote: »

The cheapest is in hundreds. The best approach I saw in Dublin is the Lexicon in DLR

https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/389604.jpg
These units are bare minimum. Should you wish billing associated add another couple of hundreds. For a parking business this cost is a laugh.

These type of chargers should be everywhere that has ample parking - i.e. outside hardware/ food shops, doctors, carpark at your local park, other offices people visit for say an hour or more. Businesses that typically don't charge for parking should be able to recoup and potentially grow revenue by charging to charge.

The amounts for the EV owner are so tiny that they should not begrudge paying a nominal fee but over the course of week or month it might make a tidy bit of extra revenue for the shop owner- maybe enough for them to invest in PV on the roof.

If a private national charging network like this was in place you'd see EV adoption really take off - and the EV's people could buy wouldn't have to be long range very expensive cars but the lower range/ cheaper options like the Mini or indeed PHEV's would be much more attractive

If EV owners are too mean to pay for fuel then of course you won't see as much of an incentive for small business owners or other groups to make an investment

Del2005

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

I've never stayed in a hotel that has petrol pumps or gives you a litre of petrol at check-in and a lot more people drive ICE than EV.

The cost of installing and maintenance of the sockets would be a substantial amount for businesses which run on narrow margins and provide a limited benefit to the business.

Peregrinus

innrain wrote: »

2kW*8h =16kWh*€.20 = €3.2

By "full charge" I mean the cost of charging the battery from fully depleted to full capacity.

The Nissan Leaf, for example, is rated at 10kWh/100 km, and claims a range of 400km. Thus a full charge of the battery requires 40 kWh. Average household electricity price in Ireland, Google tells me, is 25.46c/Kwh. That gives me €10.14 for a full charge.

(The €25 figure represents a similar calculation for a Jaguar I-Pace. I can dream, can't I?)

the_amazing_raisin

Leaving the legal question aside, I guess there's a question of practicality here, unless you're consistently plugging into the same socket without permission for weeks you're unlikely to incur much of an expense to the owner of that socket.

That doesn't make it right to plug in without permission, but in the case where you're paying for some facility and using the plug, it's likely that they're making money at a higher rate that you're costing them in electricity.

Consider a restaurant for example. You spend two hours there charging costing the restaurant around €0.65 probably. During this time you spend €25 on a meal and drinks, at a profit of probably €12.50 to the restaurant. If you stay for dessert, you'll cost then an additional €0.32, but probably increase their profit by €5

The other side is morality. I think most people agree that theft is wrong and most people would equate stealing electricity to stealing food from a shop.

However, if I was hungry enough, I'd be tempted to steal some food. Equally if I was running out of battery and I saw a plug, I'd be very tempted to plug in. I'd make every effort to find the owner, get permission and pay for the electricity. But if I'm unable to do that, then I might plug in for a bit to get enough juice to get to the next charger and just live with myself

ELM327

Peregrinus wrote: »

Slight difference, though. A full charge for a mobile phone costs between 0.2 and 0.4 cents, depending on the phone. A full charge for a car costs maybe €10 to €25, or more, depending on the vehicle.

As far as the legislation goes, the theft of any amount of electricity is an offence. But it's relevant to the question of whether you're acting dishonestly, which is an element of the offence. I can readily believe that I have implied permission from my employer to charge my phone at work, at a cost to him of less than half a cent, much more easily than I can believe that I have implied permission to charge my car, which is literally thousands of times more valuable as a perk.

In other words, the difference in cost would be relevant to the credibility of any claim that you honestly believed you were allowed to charge your stuff at your employer's expense.

The other area where the issue would arise would be if you were actually prosecuted. In the absence of special factors, most district judges would throw out a prosecution for a theft whose value would be rounded to zero by any accountant as oppressive and an abuse of the courts.

I charge my S90D overnight and costs about €5-6 for a full 0-100 charge

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

I charge my S90D overnight and costs about €5-6 for a full 0-100 charge

That's how much it costs for you to charge your car at your location.

That's not how much it costs to charge at every other location.

innrain

Peregrinus wrote: »

By "full charge" I mean the cost of charging the battery from fully depleted to full capacity.

The Nissan Leaf, for example, is rated at 10kWh/100 km, and claims a range of 400km. Thus a full charge of the battery requires 40 kWh. Average household electricity price in Ireland, Google tells me, is 25.46c/Kwh. That gives me €10.14 for a full charge.

(The €25 figure represents a similar calculation for a Jaguar I-Pace. I can dream, can't I?)

You can but that is the max you get from a 3pin socket during 8 hours should you be charging at work; in fact if you want to quantify it per hours charging is 40c @20c per kWh.

Google is wrong. ecars charges 23c/kWh for standard charging. Anything more expensive than that is nuts. People with EV's would have night tariffs paying 7-10c per kWh

ELM327

redcup342 wrote: »

That's how much it costs for you to charge your car at your location.

That's not how much it costs to charge at every other location.

Yes, it can be more or less.


The point was the unilateral statement was incorrect.
No one pays 25c per kWh. Industrial rates are a lot cheaper than domestic. I used to work in commercial energy pricing.

liamog

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

ELM327

innrain wrote: »

You can but that is the max you get from a 3pin socket during 8 hours should you be charging at work; in fact if you want to quantify it per hours charging is 40c @20c per kWh.

Google is wrong. ecars charges 23c/kWh for standard charging. Anything more expensive than that is nuts. People with EV's would have night tariffs paying 7-10c per kWh

And even at that, there were complaints that it was more expensive than standard day rate

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, it can be more or less.


The point was the unilateral statement was incorrect.
No one pays 25c per kWh. Industrial rates are a lot cheaper than domestic. I used to work in commercial energy pricing.

That's usually about what you pay directly in most of Europe.

I currently pay 35 euros a month for Flat Rate AC Charging, 2 Euros if roaming.

liamog wrote: »

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

Well the socket could be there since before EVs became mainstream. Might be there to charge cleaning equipment.

Peregrinus

liamog wrote: »

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

Because the cost of allowing you to charge your car is vastly greater than the cost of allowing you to charge your phone, and because the cost of parking is usually vastly less than the costs associated with occuping a restaurant table. So you'd be assuming that they are providing a massively more valuable perk on a substantially lower purchase. Which is not really a realistic assumption.

It's an assumption you can easily test, though. Ask them.

ELM327

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because the cost of allowing you to charge your car is vastly greater than the cost of allowing you to charge your phone, and because the cost of parking is usually vastly less than the costs associated with occuping a restaurant table. So you'd be assuming that they are providing a massively more valuable perk on a substantially lower purchase. Which is not really a realistic assumption.

It's an assumption you can easily test, though. Ask them.

What decides what the "reasonable" allowed cost of opportunistic plugging in is.


If my laptop has a bigger battery am I not allowed plug that in? What about a laptop powerbank?
What about the battery for my electric scooter?
Etc, Etc.


Either opportunistic use of available plugs is ok or it isnt

liamog

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because the cost of allowing you to charge your car is vastly greater than the cost of allowing you to charge your phone, and because the cost of parking is usually vastly less than the costs associated with occuping a restaurant table. So you'd be assuming that they are providing a massively more valuable perk on a substantially lower purchase. Which is not really a realistic assumption.

It's an assumption you can easily test, though. Ask them.

The cost of charging on a 3 pin plug isn't that high, so your threshold for 'theft' is what, 40c/hour?

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

If you're in a cafe using the plugs, you're likely paying for a coffee or food.


If you're in a car park, does the same apply always?

Yes if it's a paid car park, but what if it's free?
Can you be sure the plug owner is the same as the car park owner?


It's always better to ask permission before plugging in

ted1

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

Sure if they gave away free pints they’d attract customers too

Peregrinus

liamog wrote: »

The cost of charging on a 3 pin plug isn't that high, so your threshold for 'theft' is what, 40c/hour?

That's not my "threshold for theft"; you didn't ask about theft. You asked whether, if a restaurant allows patrons to charge their phones at a plug socket near the table, it is reasonable to assume that a car park allows patrons to charge their cars at a plug socket near the parking bay. The answer is no, it's not reasonable, because the ratio of perk to purchase is wildly different. Like, different by orders of magnitude.

Maybe the are happy to allow you to charge your car. I don't know. Why not ask them? But it is wildly irrational to assume that, because the restaurant lets you charge your phone, the car park must be happy to let you charge your car.