How lucrative is a career in Computer Science?

mr_fegelien

I'm going to do a Bachelors in CS in a private university for four years. I thought that a journalism degree while great if you become successful, is a really difficult field to break into.

So I'm going for computer science. I know it has a high dropout rate and I'm prepared to do work at home.

Once I graduate, how difficult will it be to find employment? I've seen that the U.S. pays software developers well but I'm very put off by the sociopolitical climate of America and that would be the last place I go to. What about Switzerland, Australia?

youcancallmeal

Look at glassdoor to get an idea of average salaries, for example Software Developer is 45k average in Dublin. That's just one role you might get into after completing a Computer Science degree. I couldn't tell you how difficult it is to find employment as a graduate, I'm way past that stage of my career. As for work abroad it's a very general question and there's no telling what the job market in Switzerland or Australia will be like by the time you've got a degree and built up enough experience. One thing that should probably go without saying is don't bother with Computer Science unless you have an interest in it. This is why the dropout rate is high and even if you did struggle through it you will find it hard to keep up with the ever evolving tech industry.

mr_fegelien

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I'm going to do a Bachelors in CS in a private university for four years. I thought that a journalism degree while great if you become successful, is a really difficult field to break into.

So I'm going for computer science. I know it has a high dropout rate and I'm prepared to do work at home.

Once I graduate, how difficult will it be to find employment? I've seen that the U.S. pays software developers well but I'm very put off by the sociopolitical climate of America and that would be the last place I go to. What about Switzerland, Australia?

Have you a genuine interest in computers? Have you done any programming?


I know people who breezed through CS but they had quite a bit of experience already. I didn't do CS, but I wrote my first program in C at the age of 14.



If you've not done any programming yet, I suggest you do some code academy courses and check do you actually like it

Rikand

If you're good at coding it's extremely lucrative.

If you're rubbish at it, does the idea of a career in the civil service sound appealing to you ?

nedkelly123

its very lucrative.. if you are good and talented ,engage in community etc ,you could expect 70 k after 5 years
more if you go contracting .. i have friends getting 450 per day .. with no shortage of work
im daily rate in a place the last 7 years on 370 per day..prob could get more elsewhere but i like it here

mr_fegelien

nedkelly123 wrote: »

its very lucrative.. if you are good and talented ,engage in community etc ,you could expect 70 k after 5 years
more if you go contracting .. i have friends getting 450 per day .. with no shortage of work
im daily rate in a place the last 7 years on 370 per day..prob could get more elsewhere but i like it here

What do your friends do? I'm learning Java at the moment.

nedkelly123

c# , react , mvc , they are working in sharepoint and dynamics 365

OMM 0000

The people who do computer science for the job opportunities tend to hate it and wished they were doing something else.

You only get one life, so spending most of it doing something you aren't good at or dislike is hell.

I love computer science and I've been in this industry for over 20 years.

It's a HUGE area and your employability depends on what your skillset it.

For example, a C programmer who does embedded stuff, although this is some of the hardest work it's one of the lower paid and there are fewer opportunities. On the other hand a full stack javascript guy, which is not difficult and full of bull****ters, is probably the most in demand and the money is good. I work in senior management but I still do full stack javascript stuff on the side as I can earn about EUR 200 per hour.

Programming isn't for most people (they can't do it and they hate it) so there's the world of networking and security. These jobs tends to be a bit more sociable and they're "easier" although (for example) the security world is so large and so continuously evolving that you need to constantly learn and adapt.

And that's a "problem" with the computer science world in general. Remember I told you I have over 20 years experience? I still read a few computer science books every month. There is continuous learning. You cannot just do a degree and that's it. You have to keep buying books and keep reading them. Right now I'm reading a C network programming book and a risk analysis book. Up next is a reverse engineering book and a linux API book. It is never ending. I like this stuff so it's fine, but imagine if you hated it?

Be really sure computer science is for you.

Look into product manager (business analyst) and project manager roles. They may suit you.

youcancallmeal

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Look at glassdoor to get an idea of average salaries, for example Software Developer is 45k average in Dublin.

That can't be accurate is it?

Hardly worth the effort that a CS degree needs if that is the average pay in Dublin. Software Development is the better paid discipline as well. Others - BA, Sys Admin, etc would probably pay even lower.

Fr Tod Umptious

I was going to reply with some other information that I thought might be helpful but then I saw who the OP was and left it at this.

youcancallmeal

salonfire wrote: »

That can't be accurate is it?

Hardly worth the effort that a CS degree needs if that is the average pay in Dublin. Software Development is the better paid discipline as well. Others - BA, Sys Admin, etc would probably pay even lower.

Other sites have the average even lower, dunno where they are getting their data from though. The average matches with my experience as a Software Dev but it's been nearly 10 year since I worked in a role like that.

beauf

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I was going to reply with some other information that I thought might be helpful but then I saw who the OP was and left it at this.

How does his account information show zero threads started when he started this one.

belfe

IT here, agree with the averages mentioned previously. After 5-6 years in DEV, you can get 70k, you can even reach 100k if you're specially good at it and if you are in the right place on the right time.

About Java or what language... this is one of the biggest issues here. I can tell you that today the best idea would be Java and associated frameworks or python, also a bit of cloud (better AWS), but in four years nobody knows. You need to be continuously learning new things, and if you don't, then you're out, that's the reason many people leave after some years.Also we don't know if in 5-6 years AI will overtake our jobs. Google's AI is starting to be very good at programming. So, if you're not truly passionate about computers, think about it twice. It is a very good job if you like playing with new technologies and new ways to do things.

* I'm talking about DEV because it was my choice and I don't really know that much about other areas, but in QA (automated) you've got similar salaries and similar issues, with the difference that, for some reason, there are more DEV hating their jobs than QA doing the same. I'd never recommend sys admin because all the programmers hate sys admins (joke, but the reality is that I wouldn't recommend sys admin, less pay, continuously on-call...)

Once I graduate, how difficult will it be to find employment?

You mentioned Switzerland, there is plenty of IT jobs there, and also in Germany/Netherlands. But moving abroad without experience could be an issue, the first IT job is the hardest to find. It would be better to start 6-12 months in Ireland, that BTW is the EU country where is easier to find an IT job. After that, basically you can move to any country.

Notmything

Private university ? Have you won the lotto?

A few months ago you were begging for money off strangers online and looking for medical card

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114297419

bobbyy gee

It's not about the money

Enjoy the work

colm_c

salonfire wrote: »

That can't be accurate is it?

Hardly worth the effort that a CS degree needs if that is the average pay in Dublin. Software Development is the better paid discipline as well. Others - BA, Sys Admin, etc would probably pay even lower.

Not accurate in my experience.

40k is average for a grad these days.

So maybe if there are a lot of grads it brings the average down.

Anyone with experience and has moved jobs in the last 2 years is getting well paid.

Key here is moving jobs regularly. Every 2-3 years you either need to move up or out.

If you stay at the same company it is likely that your salary will stagnate.

Range of salaries for a software developer in Dublin is 40-150k+

Top end are roles at Google/MS/Facebook/Fintech.

A lot of devs tend to to hit a ceiling at ~100k

A2LUE42

Notmything wrote: »

Private university ? Have you won the lotto?

A few months ago you were begging for money off strangers online and looking for medical card

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114297419

or doing voiceovers

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114792985

:rolleyes:

thomas 123

OP what is the private university your considering? I am looking to up skill in that area myself.

Also from my experience look closer at what you can do with certain languages, CS degrees can be super broad and what you specialize in will be what makes the difference between being paid the average wage and the rockstar day rates.

SVI40

A2LUE42 wrote: »

or doing voiceovers

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114792985

:rolleyes:

Maybe they will get better answers here?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1008

mr_fegelien

bobbyy gee wrote: »

It's not about the money

Enjoy the work

You need enough money not to be on the streets.

Money may not make you 100% happy but being broke can make you 100% miserable.

mr_fegelien

Notmything wrote: »

Private university ? Have you won the lotto?

A few months ago you were begging for money off strangers online and looking for medical card

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114297419

Mummy and Daddy are paying.

bobbyy gee

no carreer in Ireland is lucrative you need to go to usa

Irish_rat

mr_fegelien wrote: »

You need enough money not to be on the streets.

Money may not make you 100% happy but being broke can make you 100% miserable.

Disagree 100% on that.

Jim2007

bobbyy gee wrote: »

no carreer in Ireland is lucrative you need to go to usa

Rubbish. You can earn better money in Switzerland working less hours for example. In thirty years I've never worked more that 20 hours OT per year and that was normally paid out at 200%.

Tij da feen

Just to add here. There's IT jobs out there that aren't Software Dev. DBA, Data engineers, Data Analysts, DevOps, Networking, Systems etc...

The 40k average is definitely off for software dev. I was making 50k in an enterprise tech support role in Cork before I moved to a Business Intelligence role.

Oranage2

No need to do a 4 year degree unless you really like it. Try an online course, plenty of free ones, and do a boot camp, usually last 3-6 months, then you're well on your way to being a developer

OMM 0000

Oranage2 wrote: »

No need to do a 4 year degree unless you really like it. Try an online course, plenty of free ones, and do a boot camp, usually last 3-6 months, then you're well on your way to being a developer

Usually a crap developer though.

We stopped hiring these bootcamp guys because (a) they only have a superficial understanding of things and (b) the bootcamps brainwash people into thinking they're great, so they end up not realising how little they know.

But I agree with your general point of trying it before commiting to 4 years.

TuringBot47

Oranage2 wrote: »

No need to do a 4 year degree unless you really like it. Try an online course, plenty of free ones, and do a boot camp, usually last 3-6 months, then you're well on your way to being a developer

Rubbish.
Most companies won't even look at your CV without a degree.
Search the adverts on irishjobs.ie for a java developer to see.
They'll either say a degree or X years of experience.

Oranage2

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Rubbish.
Most companies won't even look at your CV without a degree.
Search the adverts on irishjobs.ie for a java developer to see.
They'll either say a degree or X years of experience.

So the only way to get into development is to do a CS degree? Now that's rubbish!

If you had proper comprehensive skills you could see that I wrote a boot camp can get you on your way to a developer job. Start low, work hard on your coding and gain that experience.

mr_fegelien

Oranage2 wrote: »

So the only way to get into development is to do a CS degree? Now that's rubbish!

If you had proper comprehensive skills you could see that I wrote a boot camp can get you on your way to a developer job. Start low, work hard on your coding and gain that experience.

But the way I look it at it, the job market has become so competitive that employers can chose to be picky. A self taught developer is probably as good as one that has gone to college but there are certain things the self taught one is unlikely to know and they want to weed out any chances of hiring someone who isn't up for it so they'll almost always go for someone with a CV.

It's the same thing with having a criminal record. Someone could be the best degree in the world and have a record but 99 times out of 100 companies will interview hundreds of others who have the same degree but no record.

GarIT

Oranage2 wrote: »

So the only way to get into development is to do a CS degree? Now that's rubbish!

If you had proper comprehensive skills you could see that I wrote a boot camp can get you on your way to a developer job. Start low, work hard on your coding and gain that experience.

You writing it doesn't make it true, hopefully that's easy enough for you to understand after you didn't get it the first time.

OMM 0000

You can absolutely get a junior job via one of those bootcamps if you have a portfolio and a naive/desperate employer.

I know many of these guys who now work as programmers.

They are all crap though. You'll notice they use MongoDB for everything, even though it should really only be used as a bucket for non-relational data. The problem is they don't understand the fundamentals. A computer science degree teaches you these fundamentals.

kingbhome

nedkelly123 wrote: »

its very lucrative.. if you are good and talented ,engage in community etc ,you could expect 70 k after 5 years
more if you go contracting .. i have friends getting 450 per day .. with no shortage of work
im daily rate in a place the last 7 years on 370 per day..prob could get more elsewhere but i like it here

How long does it take to get the qualifications needed for a salary like this. Is the 5 years you mentioned after the degree or this length of time to get it.

Oranage2

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You can absolutely get a junior job via one of those bootcamps if you have a portfolio and a naive/desperate employer.

I know many of these guys who now work as programmers.

They are all crap though. You'll notice they use MongoDB for everything, even though it should really only be used as a bucket for non-relational data. The problem is they don't understand the fundamentals. A computer science degree teaches you these fundamentals.

There are so many great developers who have arts, statistics, business degrees. A computer science degree isn't the be all and end all to getting a job in software. In fact I know some guys that have a CS degrees that aren't great programmers.

OMM 0000

Oranage2 wrote: »

There are so many great developers who have arts, statistics, business degrees. A computer science degree isn't the be all and end all to getting a job in software. In fact I know some guys that have a CS degrees that aren't great programmers.

These people have an aptitude for it. They're rare.

Just like many (most) computer science graduates aren't good programmers.

The best programmer I know didn't even go to college.

But the problem with these bootcamps if they fool their graduates into thinking they are competent, when in fact they know almost nothing.

Being a good programmer requires a large amount of knowledge, continuous learning, striving for continuous improvements, an aptitude for it, and a passion for it.

Oranage2

OMM 0000 wrote: »

These people have an aptitude for it. They're rare.

Just like many (most) computer science graduates aren't good programmers.

The best programmer I know didn't even go to college.

But the problem with these bootcamps if they fool their graduates into thinking they are competent, when in fact they know almost nothing.

Being a good programmer requires a large amount of knowledge, continuous learning, striving for continuous improvements, an aptitude for it, and a passion for it.

I agree there are a lot of boot camps are money grabs but there are some good ones out there, go to a boot camp for 6 months and work on projects and developing skills at the weekend will leave you well competent for an entry level or junior developer role. Work hard and in 3 - 5 years, build up your contacts and then you'll be making the big bucks and moving into a contracting role with plenty of work.

I was letting the op know that there are many alternative ways to get into software other than a CS degree but many insisted it was rubbish and if only a degree from MIT was good enough.

GalwayGrrrrrl

kingbhome wrote: »

How long does it take to get the qualifications needed for a salary like this. Is the 5 years you mentioned after the degree or this length of time to get it.

It would be 5 years after the 4 year degree. So 9 years from now if you started today.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

These people have an aptitude for it. They're rare.

And yet the average office clerk, who has no more interest in programming than the man on the moon , has the "aptitude" to write macro programs or to automate tasks.

How is that possible if it the aptitude do be able to do it is so "rare"? Could the average office clerk do a bit of tinkering in brain surgery on the side you think? Tinker in industrial chemistry?

I have pulled you up on your constant negativity on this topic before.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

They are all crap though. You'll notice they use MongoDB for everything, even though it should really only be used as a bucket for non-relational data. The problem is they don't understand the fundamentals. A computer science degree teaches you these fundamentals.

If I am frontend developer, why do I care what the database is? If the wrong database is used, is not normalized correctly, missing indexes, not my problem. It is up to the DBA or backend team. So what if the developer does not have a understanding of the fundamentals if they don't work on backend.

Oranage2

Oranage2 wrote: »

I was letting the op know that there are many alternative ways to get into software other than a CS degree but many insisted it was rubbish and if only a degree from MIT was good enough.

I agree.

I know people who started in a call centre after the Leaving Cert who are now developers without setting foot in college and worked upwards within the company.

I know others coming from Arts who could barely use a computer now working as developers.

You don't have to be top of the pile to be a developer. There's a reason the biggest Q&A site on the Internet is named after a programming error.

beauf

There is a world of difference in recording the odd macro and programming. Likewise when it comes to things like databases, doing it correctly, and hacking something together to get it working.
There are advantages in having done a CS degree, gives a grounding in a lot of area's, that people will be less likely to learn coming from any other route.

But there is a element of snobbery about it, and its become a barrier to entry in lots of area's.
That said you do meet CS Programmers who really are not very good, and even the good ones make common sense errors due to their own Narcissism.

Narcissistic Coder Syndrome https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Narcissistic%20Coder%20Syndrome

pwurple

Computer science is far broader than simply software development and programming.

Architecture, modules for graphic design, Business analysis, UI design etc.

The careers available from it are vast. It's what you make of it, as with any other degree. It can range from extremely lucrative long term leadership positions, or remain as as a helpdesk junior support team member. Somewhere in between it ranged from DBAs, to creative work. Depends what you want, and how you work for it. Not everyone wants a high flying career with responsibility and pressure. Not everyone wants to take that consultancy contracting job with some risk. Plenty are perfectly happy with a lower stress DBA job running service desk tickets and clocking off to have stable family time at 4pm for just 3 days a week.

To answer the question, it's as lucrative as you make it.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

There is a world of difference in recording the odd macro and programming.

I agree, but my point is anybody can pickup the very basics. So someone looking to build a career needs to work from there.

beauf wrote: »

But there is a element of snobbery about it, and its become a barrier to entry in lots of area's.

Agree. There's spades of it in this thread.

beauf wrote: »

That said you do meet CS Programmers who really are not very good, and even the good ones make common sense errors due to their own Narcissism.

That's the same of any profession; bus drivers, nurses, dentists.

Not all our teachers were good. Mostly were average or poor. One or two good or exceptional ones that we remember after leaving school.

Not all doctors are good. Most are average and middle-of-the-road who struggled through med school with Pass degrees. Still are doctors though.


But one poster here continues to put people off if you are not exceptional.

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

And yet the average office clerk, who has no more interest in programming than the man on the moon , has the "aptitude" to write macro programs or to automate tasks.

How is that possible if it the aptitude do be able to do it is so "rare"? Could the average office clerk do a bit of tinkering in brain surgery on the side you think? Tinker in industrial chemistry?

I have pulled you up on your constant negativity on this topic before.

salonfire wrote: »

If I am frontend developer, why do I care what the database is? If the wrong database is used, is not normalized correctly, missing indexes, not my problem. It is up to the DBA or backend team. So what if the developer does not have a understanding of the fundamentals if they don't work on backend.

We've had this conversation many times before.

You have no understanding of programming.

Stop pretending you're a frontend developer. You're not. You've admitted it before. You also admitted your only "experience" is writing some macros for Excel to automate some tasks. As I told you before, writing macros for Excel is completely different to development and the two should not be compared. It's like saying you can do surgery because you've cut a steak before.

Computer science has the highest drop out rate of any course. It's because of programming. Most people cannot do it. In previous conversations, even a computer science lecturer told you this, but you keep pretending it's not true.

I don't understand what's going on with you.

beauf

salonfire wrote: »

I agree, but my point is anybody can pickup the very basics. So someone looking to build a career needs to work from there.

The majority people aren't able to progress past the basics though. That is not always true of every other careers. More people would be able to drive a bus for example.

Basically I think there is middle ground between everyone can code, and only an exceptional few can do it properly.

But for sure there's more to IT than programmers ad engineers. Steve jobs was a case in point. But its also true to say not everyone has to top of their field, to have a rewarding career in it.

beauf

salonfire wrote: »

If I am frontend developer, why do I care what the database is? If the wrong database is used, is not normalized correctly, missing indexes, not my problem. It is up to the DBA or backend team. So what if the developer does not have a understanding of the fundamentals if they don't work on backend.

I'm sure you've heard the joke...

https://ifunny.co/picture/why-do-frontend-developers-eat-lunch-alone-AeRccxYm7

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You have no understanding of programming.

Incorrect.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Stop pretending you're a frontend developer. You're not.

Correct

salonfire wrote: »

If I am frontend developer,

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You also admitted your only "experience" is writing some macros for Excel to automate some tasks.

Incorrect. I give examples how office clerks and administrators are able to understand the basics of programming.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

As I told you before, writing macros for Excel is completely different to development and the two should not be compared.

I did not say there were. I said the basics could be understood.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Computer science has the highest drop out rate of any course. It's because of programming. Most people cannot do it.

And the low points and entry criteria has nothing to do with it?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't understand what's going on with you.

You come into all of these threads espousing how fantastic and exceptional you need to be to work as a developer. I am taking the opposite opinion to you based on what I see every day. That's how a discussion forum works.

beauf

You should check out the OP history of thread starting, if you think think this was a genuine query.

Multi-posting is a friend of no-one.

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

You come into all of these threads espousing how fantastic and exceptional you need to be to work as a developer.

How have you come to that conclusion?

I have stated most people can't program and don't like it (we know this is true from computer science drop out rates) and how every tech company struggles to get programmers.

I have also stated you don't need a degree to work as a programmer (e.g. you can do one of those crappy bootcamps), but because you lack the fundamentals you are not going to be good. I know this from experience, having hired hundreds of developers, and interviewed probably a thousand.

Obviously there are all sorts of exceptions.

But it is a fact most people can't program. Writing an Excel macro isn't programming. This is the fundamental issue here. You have no idea what the job of a programmer entails. Yet weirdly you have extremely aggressive opinions on this topic.

What always happens is you end up revealing how little you know and then run away. This thread is a good example: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2057981623

OMM 0000

salonfire, here's some of your previous insights into programming:

* any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"

* writing financial software only requires basic software development skills

* people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly

* a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

* design patterns are only for cutting edge developers

You are free to continue giving your stupid opinion on this topic.

mr_fegelien

beauf wrote: »

You should check out the OP history of thread starting, if you think think this was a genuine query.

Multi-posting is a friend of no-one.

No, this time I really am genuine. I've been given an ultimatum by parents. Either do this course or get out of the house.