Wife speaking her native language to our kids and I feel alienated

lainey_d_123

looksee wrote: »

This is a three year old, as has been pointed out. The fact that she answers in her mother's language just suggests that she has not yet figured out there are two languages involved, she understands something said by the OP and just answers, she does not particularly sort out the language to answer in. As soon as she goes to playschool or school she will start using English more familiarly. It will get to a stage where English becomes the more usual language in the house, at which point your wife will have to make an effort to make sure the children learn to speak her language a level beyond a five year old's.

In the meantime it must be very relaxing for your wife to be able to communicate in her own language, if only to a three year old.

On the subject of how easy it is to learn a language, (and it sounds as though the OP has done brilliantly) my husband had the same theory, a person could learn anything if they set their mind to it, he told me so many times. He was a linguist and an academic. I was never a linguist and wasted many years trying to learn both French and Spanish with almost no long-lasting results. However it was amazing how many of the things I could do he never 'wanted' to do, he could not deal with processes, could not have planned anything that might be constructed, whether a house or assembling a piece of Ikea furniture. While it came naturally to me, he was completely incapable.

Don't tell people what they can do if they try, you have no idea, and it is condescending.

I don't believe it is condescending. I actually think it's more condescending to think some people are just bad at things and they should just give up. It's far, far more likely that you weren't learning the languages in a way that worked for you, and that's why they never stuck.

It will also obviously always be more more difficult to learn something with no real motivation to do so. If sometimes decides they fancy learning a language just because, it's going to be a much harder slog than someone who has a real and immediate need to learn it (communicating with extended family and understanding their own kids).

I've said my piece anyway. I have a very long career history in teaching languages and believe OP should be able to give it a decent go. And if he really, really can't or won't, then he should accept that the kids' bilingualism and future opportunities are more important than his comfort.

Frankie Machine

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I have a very long career history in teaching languages and believe OP should be able to give it a decent go. And if he really, really can't or won't, then he should accept that the kids' bilingualism and future opportunities are more important than his comfort.

For someone with your alleged teaching skills, your own reading comprehension is spectacularly deficient.

From the OP -

I have made every effort to learn the language and can understand some sentences and most words but it's not an easy language to learn. I have been as opened minded and patient as possible. Put myself in her shoes.

What part of that did you fail to understand ?

What experience do you have of learning a Slavic language ?

lainey_d_123

Frankie Machine wrote: »

For someone with your alleged teaching skills, your own reading comprehension is spectacularly deficient.

From the OP -



What part of that did you fail to understand ?

What experience do you have of learning a Slavic language ?

God, do keep up. I've already addressed the fact (multiple times) that people's idea of 'trying really hard' is often far from the reality. Most of the time they're either not really doing much, or they're working very hard and not smart, doing the wrong things and not learning in a way that works for them.

I have learned Russian to a decent elementary level and know a good bit of basic Polish from the two times I went there (short trips as a tourist to stay with friends).

Anything else?

Antares35

eviltwin wrote: »

My mother is foreign and never spoke to us in her native tongue because it was seen as inappropriate not to use English. As a result I have a passable ability to speak her language but regretful that I don't have the same fluency other children have in their parents.

I also feel a bit sorry for my mother that something so personal to her as her culture was being diluted because she lived here. Language is a gift and there is no better way to learn than to be around a native speaker and pick it up by osmosis. It will be huge benefit to the children.

Obviously the wife has gone to the trouble and effort to learn English, I can't see why the OP can't do the same.

That's a good point about it being a gift. Our little girl has a very small family, her only two cousins being on my partner's side in France, and for her to be able to interact with them (and her aunts and nanna in France) she will need the language. Well, the children will probably have English but it will be nice for her to be able to just go to France to see French relatives and you know, speak French!

Looking into a nanny and OH asked if we can get a French speaking one, which I'm giving serious thought to because like that, she will be bombarded with English everywhere else so no harm trying to balance things a bit.

Frankie Machine

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

God, do keep up. I've already addressed the fact (multiple times) that people's idea of 'trying really hard' is often far from the reality. Most of the time they're either not really doing much, or they're working very hard and not smart, doing the wrong things and not learning in a way that works for them.

What you said, and what I am responding to, is the following -

OP should be able to give it a decent go. And if he really, really can't or won't...

That's a specific statement about a specific individual, and not the general observation you are now backtracking it to be.

Since you've been told more than once here that your assumptions about the language acquisition skills of others are misguided and inded patronising, we must conclude that you are simply incapable of empathising with people who don't have the language acquisition skills you claim to have.

Such a lack of empathy is a serious flaw in any teacher.

I have learned Russian to a decent elementary level and know a good bit of basic Polish from the two times I went there (short trips as a tourist to stay with friends).

Anything else?

Yes.

I've been going to Poland frequently for 15 years, am married to a Polish woman, am deeply interested in their culture and society, and can communicate tentatively in Polish.

I say with great confidence that the value of the Polish you could pick up from two short trips as a tourist to stay with friends, is precious little.

That a language teacher would so nonchalantly dismiss the overwhelming 'otherness' of Slavic languages, is actually risible.

sammyjo90

I tried to learn polish, Wanted to be able to understand some of what my boyfriend at the time was saying to his best friend who only spoke polish.
So i had reason to and wanted to. I got nowhere...what i was learning in the apps etc was completely different to the way he spoke. It was like ulster and munster Irish, they sounded like completely different languages so even trying to get him to teach me and then go off and learn it myself was useless.
We arent together anymore but The only things i can remember 3 years later are the words for fish, milk and bread..

The OP never said he wanted his kids to stop speaking it..he has tried to learn it and struggles. He just wanted to know if he has any cause to ask his wife to speak English in front of him so his children answer back to him in a language he understands.

People have told him once they go to school the children will adapt to knowing daddy only speaks enlglish and soon his feelings of isolation will change. I think this is really all the OP needs to take on board.

Frankie Machine

Returning to the OP, and the request for advice -

You are perfectly entitled to point out to your other half that things are out of balance here.

Meekly accepting that your child persistently speaks to you in a different language than the one you address her in, is a ridiculous concession to the dogma that children are the centre of the universe, and that any attempt to correct them is somehow some kind of child abuse.

You are entitled to that respect as a parent, from the child's other parent.

What people are attempting to portray here as some kind of unqualified glory of polyglotism, often comes about because of what is more convenient for the over-worked parent for whom the 'second' language is native to them. Human nature.

lainey_d_123

Frankie Machine wrote: »

What you said, and what I am responding to, is the following -



That's a specific statement about a specific individual, and not the general observation you are now backtracking it to be.

Since you've been told more than once here that your assumptions about the language acquisition skills of others are misguided and inded patronising, we must conclude that you are simply incapable of empathising with people who don't have the language acquisition skills you claim to have.

Such a lack of empathy is a serious flaw in any teacher.



Yes.

I've been going to Poland frequently for 15 years, am married to a Polish woman, am deeply interested in their culture and society, and can communicate tentatively in Polish.

I say with great confidence that the value of the Polish you could pick up from two short trips as a tourist to stay with friends, is precious little.

That a language teacher would so nonchalantly dismiss the overwhelming 'otherness' of Slavic languages, is actually risible.

And I know an English woman who is married to a Polish man, has been learning for about 5 or 6 years, and is completely fluent. What is your point?

I have plenty of empathy for the fact people learn at different speeds and some find it easier than others. I have little patience for the idea that it's impossible for people to learn at all.

I never said my Polish was great - I said I picked up the basics. As in, I recognise a lot of the most common words, especially food words. I was staying in a house with a Polish family and had fun learning bits and pieces with them. It's not a language or culture I'm particularly interested in. I'm fairly confident that if I were married to a Polish man and he spoke Polish to my own children at home, I'd manage a fair bit more than that.

I'm not dismissing the 'otherness' at all. I'm not saying OP should be shooting for C2 level, I'm saying that even with 'difficult' languages, anyone who is making a serious effort and who has a native speaker on hand should make reasonable progress. Certainly enough to understand a three year old asking for ketchup or a glass of water. The idea you think this isn't realistic is what's risible.

Frankie Machine

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

And I know an English woman who is married to a Polish man, has been learning for about 5 or 6 years, and is completely fluent. What is your point?

That unlike your previous attitude, people's language acquisition abilities vary.
Thanks for proving it, however anecdotally.

I have plenty of empathy for the fact people learn at different speeds and some find it easier than others. I have little patience for the idea that it's impossible for people to learn at all.

Who said that ?

I never said my Polish was great - I said I picked up the basics. As in, I recognise a lot of the most common words, especially food words.

And like I already said, vocabulary does not constitute even 'basics'. It isn't even close. Especially in a highly inflected language such as Polish.

I'm not dismissing the 'otherness' at all. I'm not saying OP should be shooting for C2 level, I'm saying that even with 'difficult' languages, anyone who is making a serious effort and who has a native speaker on hand should make reasonable progress. Certainly enough to understand a three year old asking for ketchup or a glass of water. The idea you think this isn't realistic is what's risible.

Well we certainly needn't be C2 to know what a child is asking for when they say, po Polsku, 'keczup !'

But anyway, that is your (poor) example, and no-one else's.

It gives one the strong impression that you know even less about three-year old children than about Polish grammar.

In any event, since that is the standard you've set, a more careful reading of the OP would have cleared matters up.

I have made every effort to learn the language and can understand some sentences and most words but it's not an easy language to learn.

.

lainey_d_123

Frankie Machine wrote: »

That unlike your previous attitude, people's language acquisition abilities vary.
Thanks for proving it, however anecdotally.

I have never said otherwise. I said that it's usually perfectly possible to make up for a lack of natural ability by putting more work in. I found the first few weeks of my programming course unbelievably hard. I was way behind most of the others, unlike most of them had no solid maths or comp sci background, was a good bit older. Should I have just thrown in the towel and quit?

Who said that ?

Several people have claimed not everyone can learn a language to even a conversational level.

And like I already said, vocabulary does not constitute even 'basics'. It isn't even close. Especially in a highly inflected language such as Polish.

Who says? What do you think the word 'basic' means? It certainly doesn't mean constructing perfect sentences. I think most people understand 'basics' to be things like saying hello, introducing yourself, ordering a coffee, asking for the time and understanding the answer, recognising common words like 'bread' and 'milk'.

Well we certainly needn't be C2 to know what a child is asking for when they say, po Polsku, 'keczup !'

But anyway, that is your (poor) example, and no-one else's.

It gives one the strong impression that you know even less about three-year old children than about Polish grammar.

In any event, since that is the standard you've set, a more careful reading of the OP would have cleared matters up.

Jesus Christ, that was the entire point.

ILoveYourVibes

Frankie Machine wrote: »

Meekly accepting that your child persistently speaks to you in a different language than the one you address her in, is a ridiculous concession to the dogma that children are the centre of the universe, and that any attempt to correct them is somehow some kind of child abuse.

You are entitled to that respect as a parent, from the child's other parent.

What people are attempting to portray here as some kind of unqualified glory of polyglotism, often comes about because of what is more convenient for the over-worked parent for whom the 'second' language is native to them. Human nature.

This comes off kinda racist.

How would you feel if you were told to not speak English in Bulgaria?

I mean do you realize there are communities of English speakers in spain who never learn spanish?

I dunno maybe don't marry people with a culture different to yours if you are feeling that way.

The op has his partner living in his country.

Why did he marry someone from another culture?

Well silly to ask now he did.

Well now his children are also a part of that culture.

And he isn't.

If he can't learn the language ...he has to accept he is not apart of it.

And telling children how they can express themselves in their own home is kinda weird.

You should have the right to speak whichever langauge you choose at home.

What is he going to go punish them for speaking polish (or what language it is?)

He is being unacceptable. Its not good parenting.

He is focused on HIS needs.

He feels children are there to NURTURE HIM. Children are not meant to nurture their parents. Parents are meant to nurture them.

Needy parents are very bad for a child's development.

Adults are supposed to be able to meet their own emotional needs by that time.

Hannibal_Smith

Mod Note

As the thread continues to stray into general discussion as opposed to advice, I'm going to close it there. I think the OP has plenty to go on.

If you want the thread reopened OP, just let one of the Mod Team know.

Thanks to all who offered help and advice.

HS