Advertisement
We've partnered up with Nixers.com to offer a space where you can talk directly to Peter from Nixers.com and get an exclusive Boards.ie discount code for a free job listing. If you are recruiting or know anyone else who is please check out the forum here.
If you have a new account but can't post, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help to verify your email address. Thanks :)

Michael McNamara TD getting to the truth, Cases, PCR testing flaws.

  • 29-09-2020 6:37pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    There you have it folks CCO of the HSE admits PCR testing picking up covid weeks after infection...these are recorded as positive covid results.



    How cases are recorded is also questionable.



    Will the general public ever understand what the daily cases actually mean rather then just getting frightened by them, we really need the Media to start getting at the truth of what's happening.

    Mix all the above in with the false positive rates and they're little justification for how the Government are behaving.


«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭ 3xh


    Great to see. Michael McNamara TD has been only one of a very few TDs willing to question the figures coming out from Government and NPHET.

    Hopefully this doesn’t fizzle out. If NPHET and their numbers are all above board, they’ll have nothing to hide nor worry about, as they say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    The numbers are real but the public don't understand them.
    PCR testing here is the same as the UK and shows a positive covid result up to 78 days.
    They have everything to worry about....


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,143 ✭✭✭ normanoffside


    The Department of Health always report that x number of people with Covid have died.
    It's the mainstream media who misreport this and say that x number have people have died from Covid.

    Case in point from today

    https://twitter.com/roinnslainte/status/1310987729291882496


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,143 ✭✭✭ normanoffside


    The numbers are real but the media misreport them
    .

    FYP


  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭ 3xh


    The numbers are real but the public don't understand them.
    PCR testing here is the same as the UK and shows a positive covid result up to 78 days.
    They have everything to worry about....

    Sorry, yep. My post gives the impression I thought the numbers were being massaged. I don’t think that.

    The numbers are real, it’s the test used and how it picks up expired virus debris that is the story to come once the media choose to start highlighting it and telling people the case numbers aren’t actually that bad.

    Plus, how a broken leg patient with Covid in hospital is included in the hospitalisation figures and portrayed as being in hospital because of Covid primarily. It should be clarified to the media each day the difference between that and a patient primarily admitted due to Covid and reported accordingly in the daily print runs/news programming.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,143 ✭✭✭ normanoffside


    3xh wrote: »
    Sorry, yep. My post gives the impression I thought the numbers were being massaged. I don’t think that.

    The numbers are real, it’s the test used and how it picks up expired virus debris that is the story to come once the media choose to start highlighting it and telling people the case numbers aren’t actually that bad.

    Plus, how a broken leg patient with Covid in hospital is included in the hospitalisation figures and portrayed as being in hospital because of Covid primarily. It should be clarified to the media each day the difference between that and a patient primarily admitted due to Covid and reported accordingly in the daily print runs/news programming.

    This is the thing.
    The more people have Covid in Society then naturally the more people will be hospitalised with Covid (But not necessarily because of it).
    The more people will die with Covid (but not necessarily because of it).

    I do think we deserve those numbers but the media do nothing to ask for them and in fact misreport all the death statistics to suit what seems to be their own agenda of doom and gloom.

    What we are missing is a critical and investigative media.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,100 ✭✭✭ prunudo


    The numbers are real but the public don't understand them.
    PCR testing here is the same as the UK and shows a positive covid result up to 78 days.
    They have everything to worry about....

    78 days, is that for real, on every test or just possible on some tests given certain circumstances.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,898 ✭✭✭✭ niallo27


    I didn't know about the 78 day thing, it does mean the chances of a positive case today being symptomatic is much lower than we actually thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭ dalyboy


    This 78 day inaccuracy is exactly why Belgium , since last week , use only hospital ICU and deaths as a covid seriousness metric .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭ ShineOn7


    I really don't know what to believe, there seems to be conflicting information from both sides every day

    On one hand: is this just another Casedemic myth if we dig a little deeper into the facts?

    On the other hand:

    The government and NPHET know that if they came out and said "these new high numbers aren't as serious as they look" that the Irish would party like 19 Paddy's Days all rolled into one. There's a serious drinking problem in this country and they know it

    If they admitted that the case numbers aren't a worry you'd see an even bigger surge in house parties and scenes like we've seen in Galway and more


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭ ShineOn7


    What we are missing is a critical and investigative media.

    What you'll get: appalling "journalists" asking about weddings and Halloween


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    prunudo wrote: »
    78 days, is that for real, on every test or just possible on some tests given certain circumstances.

    It's all tests, That's one issue the other is the false positive rates, it's estimated 9 out of 10 positives are false.

    McNamara mentioned it above but the CCO started talking about false negatives. To know the rate is very important as we've based all our restrictions around the daily positive test result number.

    Should be an interesting day ahead tomorrow...

    Screenshot-20200929-205301-2.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ Johnny0Toole


    There you have it folks CCO of the HSE admits PCR testing picking up covid weeks after infection...these are recorded as positive covid results.



    How cases are recorded is also questionable.



    Will the general public ever understand what the daily cases actually mean rather then just getting frightened by them, we really need the Media to start getting at the truth of what's happening.

    Mix all the above in with the false positive rates and they're little justification for how the Government are behaving.

    At what level of hospitalisations would you accept restrictions?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    At what level of hospitalisations would you accept restrictions?

    What are you counting as hospitalisations? What's an acceptable test result to base policy on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ Johnny0Toole


    What are you counting as hospitalisations? What's an acceptable test result to base policy on?

    I'm counting people being hospitalised as a result of Covid 19, the disease caused by the virus and diagnosed by a Doctor. So at what level of hospitalisations caused by Covid 19 would you accept restrictions? 500? 1000? 5000?

    If we never reach the point you'd be worried about then there's no issue. But if you're going down the route of claiming you don't trust the test or that some cases aren't cases at all, you should also be willing to explain at what level of pressure on the health service you might think some restrictions would be necessary as clearly you are confident we would never reach that point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,041 ✭✭✭ Danno


    I'm counting people being hospitalised as a result of Covid 19, the disease caused by the virus and diagnosed by a Doctor. So at what level of hospitalisations caused by Covid 19 would you accept restrictions? 500? 1000? 5000?

    If we never reach the point you'd be worried about then there's no issue. But if you're going down the route of claiming you don't trust the test or that some cases aren't cases at all, you should also be willing to explain at what level of pressure on the health service you might think some restrictions would be necessary as clearly you are confident we would never reach that point.

    4.99 million. It would then be all over in a fortnight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    I'm counting people being hospitalised as a result of Covid 19, the disease caused by the virus and diagnosed by a Doctor. So at what level of hospitalisations caused by Covid 19 would you accept restrictions? 500? 1000? 5000?

    If you want a number, 882 deaths in the next 6mts as a direct result of Covid and related complications
    That's probably about 8000 hospitalisations I'm not sure.

    Would you be ok with those numbers yourself?


  • Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ Johnny0Toole


    If you want a number, 882 deaths in the next 6mts as a direct result of Covid and related complications
    That's probably about 8000 hospitalisations I'm not sure.

    Would you be ok with those numbers yourself?

    8000 hospitalisations in six months is an average of 300 a week, we can probably cope with that if spread evenly.

    The problem is we are currently recording about 70 to 100 hospitalisations a week. Cases are doubling about every three weeks. So in 9 weeks we are at maybe 250 weekly hospitalisations. Then 3 weeks after that it's 400 to 500. At this point our hospitals won't cope. It will also make it very difficult to stop it spreading in the hospital itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,179 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    8000 hospitalisations in six months is an average of 300 a week, we can probably cope with that if spread evenly.

    The problem is we are currently recording about 70 to 100 hospitalisations a week. Cases are doubling about every three weeks. So in 9 weeks we are at maybe 250 weekly hospitalisations. Then 3 weeks after that it's 400 to 500. At this point our hospitals won't cope. It will also make it very difficult to stop it spreading in the hospital itself.

    That is all just theory at this point. Fact is that we have no clue how many cases are there simply due to the nature of covid - unprecedented high percentage of non symptomatic cases make any estimate just a guess.
    For what we know there could be 10x or 40x more cases than what is caught by testing. Doubling therefore will not happen many times as soon there may be quite nobody who was not exposed yet.
    Since virus is in circulation pretty much about a year now how do you know you never had it? Or anyone else?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭ zerosugarbuzz


    ShineOn7 wrote: »
    I really don't know what to believe, there seems to be conflicting information from both sides every day

    On one hand: is this just another Casedemic myth if we dig a little deeper into the facts?

    On the other hand:

    The government and NPHET know that if they came out and said "these new high numbers aren't as serious as they look" that the Irish would party like 19 Paddy's Days all rolled into one. There's a serious drinking problem in this country and they know it

    If they admitted that the case numbers aren't a worry you'd see an even bigger surge in house parties and scenes like we've seen in Galway and more

    You’re probably right there. The problem is the longer this charade goes on the bigger the eventual party will be. Another few weeks of littlenor no real deaths and even the meekest of sheep will see reality.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    8000 hospitalisations in six months is an average of 300 a week, we can probably cope with that if spread evenly.

    The problem is we are currently recording about 70 to 100 hospitalisations a week. Cases are doubling about every three weeks. So in 9 weeks we are at maybe 250 weekly hospitalisations. Then 3 weeks after that it's 400 to 500. At this point our hospitals won't cope. It will also make it very difficult to stop it spreading in the hospital itself.

    Well we should be able to cope those are previous Irish Flu season figures I gave you.

    Now on to your hospitalisations. You say were currently recording 70 to 100 hospitalisations a week, the problem is and it was highlighted by McNamara above those 70 or 100 aren't in fact hospitalisations from Covid. These are people who could have ended up in hospital from a car crash etc and may have no signs of Covid except for testing positive that tells us they had it sometime in the last couple of months, we don't know if they currently have it, it's not the reason there in hospital. Possibly some have active covid but I'd revise those hospitalisations down by 90% to estimate who's actually in hospital sick as a direct result of catching covid.
    We know 9 out of 10 cases are false positives.
    Your exponential growth estimate can't happen as we know the virus isn't that deadly.
    Your also making the assumption that anybody going into hospital never comes out to free up capacity.

    Your not on your own Professor Samuel McConkey is making the same mistake and Professor Nolan in also doing it in his charting. They both also base their figures on nobody having any underlying immunity from previous coronaviruses, that's completely wrong as we know plenty have as the virus has 0 effect on them.

    McNamara knows enough about covid to skewer the 4 chaps in the dock this morning. He's been listening to all the experts over the last few weeks, looking forward to watching it.
    They've very serious questions to answer this morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭ funnydoggy


    Will this meeting be recorded? Have a college lecture but would love to watch after


  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭ 3xh


    Here’s the oireachtas website......

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/?tab=committee

    If you scroll down the page, they’ll have a previous videos link to click. Should be there later.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey




  • Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭ Sir Guy who smiles


    There you have it folks CCO of the HSE admits PCR testing picking up covid weeks after infection...Mix all the above in with the false positive rates and they're little justification for how the Government are behaving.

    I have worked with PCR tests for over a decade, admittedly in animals, but general characteristics of these tests are:

    1. You are far more likely to get a false negative than a false positive.

    2. You may get positive tests for a while after the organism is no longer viable, but that will be in a small minority of cases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭ Sir Guy who smiles


    prunudo wrote: »
    78 days, is that for real, on every test or just possible on some tests given certain circumstances.

    It can happen but I would think it would be rare. In most cases the RNA fragments will be removed by the host's immune system along with the live virus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭ Sir Guy who smiles


    It's all tests, That's one issue the other is the false positive rates, it's estimated 9 out of 10 positives are false

    Estimated by who?
    I think this is bollox.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,166 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_



    Watching this now and it's clear to me that Glynn hasn't a notion. Every answer is vague and non-committal and driven by his fear of being wrong compounded by being limited by his own area of (academic) expertise

    As I've said already, the job is too big for him I think, and yet this is the man Government are looking to for the decisions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    It can happen but I would think it would be rare. In most cases the RNA fragments will be removed by the host's immune system along with the live virus.

    What do you mean by this, are you suggesting that once the virus is no longer active that it won't be picked up, for someone with years of experience of these tests you should know that the number of cycles will effect the result. The CCO could not give the number of cycles were using yesterday. If were using the same as the UK which I think someone said we are that time limit for picking up traces of RNA for a positive result of Covid is 78 days.
    The CCO said it himself yesterday it's for week after infection.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Estimated by who?
    I think this is bollox.

    To give you a 100% accurate answer to that question we need to know the false positive rate in Ireland we know the UK rate, the CCO didn't know yesterday.
    I'm waiting to hear the answer at the moment i'm sure McNamara will ask it again.
    If you have a false positive rate of 1% over 10,000 cases and we are reporting 100 positives a day you'll know what the true positivity rate is from your work. Which would be?


Advertisement