Bullet HQ

onedmc

So Bullethq has just sent me an email to say that their Free-Forever package is no longer free.

No warning - bang - you have to pay to have access to you accounts.

Anyone else think that that is DISHONEST

I did get an email to say that they were updating their free pricing but no mention that it would not longer be free or that I would now have to pay to have access to MY historical account information.

I'm kinda stunned at this sort of behaviour from a company that you are supposed to trust with your accounts information.

ObiTwoKenobi

At least you got an e-mail - I received nothing at all.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057131523

"100% Free Online Accounts & Invoicing Forever, No Limits Or Caps"

in2dark

onedmc wrote: »

So Bullethq has just sent me an email to say that their Free-Forever package is no longer free.

No warning - bang - you have to pay to have access to you accounts.

Anyone else think that that is DISHONEST

I did get an email to say that they were updating their free pricing but no mention that it would not longer be free or that I would now have to pay to have access to MY historical account information.

I'm kinda stunned at this sort of behaviour from a company that you are supposed to trust with your accounts information.

Totally dishonest! Agree with you...

Im using my own local server and running invoiceninja.
Totally free and not sharing my clients info anymore with the smarty bullet...

ObiTwoKenobi

in2dark wrote: »

Totally dishonest! Agree with you...

Im using my own local server and running invoiceninja.
Totally free and not sharing my clients info anymore with the smarty bullet...

Invoice Ninja is a great system - but Bullet was handy for all the other stuff inc VAT returns, but I see this is exclusive to the top-tier package now. I wish they had another package in between the €15 and €28 but there seems to be no demand for it. I can find very little chatter about bullet on-line apart from their own forum which is most likely censored anyway. Maybe they don't have that many clients and so have to squeeze them now to make ends meet?

in2dark

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

Invoice Ninja is a great system - but Bullet was handy for all the other stuff inc VAT returns, but I see this is exclusive to the top-tier package now. I wish they had another package in between the €15 and €28 but there seems to be no demand for it. I can find very little chatter about bullet on-line apart from their own forum which is most likely censored anyway. Maybe they don't have that many clients and so have to squeeze them now to make ends meet?

Dont find it hard to do my own vat returns to be honest every 2 months....
I also do my vies once a month

ObiTwoKenobi

in2dark wrote: »

Dont find it hard to do my own vat returns to be honest every 2 months....
I also do my vies once a month

Yes VAT returns are easy enough, but it was a nice touch to Bullet.
Have you ever looked at GnuCash? It seems to be well supported and has a setup for small business accounts. I think I'm going to give it a whirl. I've looked at two other self-hosted solutions, Front Accounting and WebZash but both seemed quite hard to use.

in2dark

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

Yes VAT returns are easy enough, but it was a nice touch to Bullet.
Have you ever looked at GnuCash? It seems to be well supported and has a setup for small business accounts. I think I'm going to give it a whirl. I've looked at two other self-hosted solutions, Front Accounting and WebZash but both seemed quite hard to use.

I had a look @gnucash now, still believe that my ninja
A. Looks better
B. Has all the features I need

I am not utilising all its features ... If I wanted I could have it working fully automatically for me (taking payments from customers, sending reminders etc)

For my needs I have it configured the way I wanted.

Plus, it is free forever and 100% private.

All I had to do was to follow a very easy guide and install it on a virtual machine at home

vintagecosmos

onedmc wrote: »

So Bullethq has just sent me an email to say that their Free-Forever package is no longer free.

No warning - bang - you have to pay to have access to you accounts.

Anyone else think that that is DISHONEST

I did get an email to say that they were updating their free pricing but no mention that it would not longer be free or that I would now have to pay to have access to MY historical account information.

I'm kinda stunned at this sort of behaviour from a company that you are supposed to trust with your accounts information.

Check out wave accounts for invoicing and day to day bookkeeping.

Bullet used to be free forever. Then it was free for 5 invoices. Now it's paid for a basic feature. Do yourself a favour and export your data and fine someone reputable and with a solid track record. Have heard some horror stories around bullet and accountants charging a packet to start from scratch and do up accounts. (Although probably the fault of peoples input) regardless, You just can't trust a legal compliance matter to such a small venture.

"Awarding Winning Online Accounting Software for Ireland. Free Invoicing Software, Free Accounting Software, Free Mileage Software. No caps, Limits or Tricks "

Misleading. And the award was a 2012 beta Dublin startup award which was an informal meetup where people in attendance voted on the night. Hardly an endorsement at all. Lad gets pat on back by mates does not equal award winning.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/start-ups/new-start-ups-make-their-debut-at-dublin-beta

vintagecosmos

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

Invoice Ninja is a great system - but Bullet was handy for all the other stuff inc VAT returns, but I see this is exclusive to the top-tier package now. I wish they had another package in between the €15 and €28 but there seems to be no demand for it. I can find very little chatter about bullet on-line apart from their own forum which is most likely censored anyway. Maybe they don't have that many clients and so have to squeeze them now to make ends meet?

I noticed the forums and social media is heavily censored. Owner seems to be a a bit stuck up. Made a dope of himself on twitter when someone suggested doing more in Irish. Amazing how many 5 star reviews they have from people with only one review....

Anyway. As you can tell. I'm not a fan.

ObiTwoKenobi

vintagecosmos wrote: »

I noticed the forums and social media is heavily censored. Owner seems to be a a bit stuck up. Made a dope of himself on twitter when someone suggested doing more in Irish. Amazing how many 5 star reviews they have from people with only one review....

Anyway. As you can tell. I'm not a fan.

LOL yes I found them to be quite arrogant. Bullet would not accept new dates when my VAT reporting changed. They insisted that I had to talk to revenue as no-one else had the problem, but in fact I figured it out myself that their implementation was a bit quirky and got it entered. When I alerted them to the "problem" I was ignored. Another time they replied that display problems in the browser was the fault of my computer.

ObiTwoKenobi

vintagecosmos wrote: »

Have heard some horror stories around bullet and accountants charging a packet to start from scratch and do up accounts. (Although probably the fault of peoples input) regardless, You just can't trust a legal compliance matter to such a small venture.

They introduced me to one of their recommended accountants who could help out as he was familiar with the Bullet system - trouble was he was four times more expensive than the competition.

vintagecosmos

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

LOL yes I found them to be quite arrogant. Bullet would not accept new dates when my VAT reporting changed. They insisted that I had to talk to revenue as no-one else had the problem, but in fact I figured it out myself that their implementation was a bit quirky and got it entered. When I alerted them to the "problem" I was ignored. Another time they replied that display problems in the browser was the fault of my computer.

Yes I had a similar experience. Reported multiple errors in the software but was blanked when there wasnt a quick fix. Had to rely on fixes/workarounds to get it somewhat right. When the founder of the "award winning" company is manning the customer support chat it really makes you wonder about the scale of the business. Nothing wrong with it for a small business but unusual for someone who declares themselves as global and an alternative to the bigger brands like Big Red Cloud, Sage etc.

vintagecosmos

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

They introduced me to one of their recommended accountants who could help out as he was familiar with the Bullet system - trouble was he was four times more expensive than the competition.

Didnt realise they did recommendations. I thought their aim was to get rid of accountants

Any accountant I spoke to has issues with Bullet. But as I mentioned above, issues are more related to the data users input. I guess bullet makes you think it is straightforward and you don't need an accountant. But if you have been entering items in the wrong accounts, or not depreciating etc then it can make quite an issue when producing a set of accounts. No accountant I know uses it. And they have charged extra to start from the beginning as they just couldnt trust the figures in Bullet. They mentioned a case where someone over paid VAT and another underpaid it....

For business owners trying to bootstrap and do it all themselves I highly recommend finding an accountant you can work with. So you can spend your time building up the business, not the admin. Your evenings should be with your family and friends not slumped over a computer doing accounts on bullet of all things.

ObiTwoKenobi

Can anyone clarify another point? - Bullet told me "it's tax deductible, so it comes out of your tax not your profit, and so is in effect free". My accountant says that this is incorrect and the Bullet fees will come off your taxable profits before /U] tax is calculated. So the saving is actually 12.5%, not 100% or "free".

vintagecosmos

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

Can anyone clarify another point? - Bullet told me "it's tax deductible, so it comes out of your tax not your profit, and so is in effect free". My accountant says that this is incorrect and the Bullet fees will come off your taxable profits before /U] tax is calculated. So the saving is actually 12.5%, not 100% or "free".

That's hilarious. They must think you are thick. As an example, So if you spend 100k on business stationery it's a business expense so you won't pay corporation tax on it so therefore it's free? Where is the 100k gone then

Royale with Cheese

I got emails about pricing changes but quickly scanning them was told their €7 package wasn't increasing price so I thought grand. First of the month rolls round and I try to create an invoice... nope that'll cost you €15 a month now. More than double the price.

vintagecosmos

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I got emails about pricing changes but quickly scanning them was told their €7 package wasn't increasing price so I thought grand. First of the month rolls round and I try to create an invoice... nope that'll cost you €15 a month now. More than double the price.

It really is underhand. Wait til you are invested in a system that they promise is free forever etc etc, then extort money out of you. Wave is great for invoicing, you can take payments with Stripe etc. Very neat and has zapier integration so you can integrate it with your other systems.

ObiTwoKenobi

vintagecosmos wrote: »

That's hilarious. They must think you are thick. As an example, So if you spend 100k on business stationery it's a business expense so you won't pay corporation tax on it so therefore it's free? Where is the 100k gone then

I assume their point is that the 100k has been paid by the state in lost CT effectively subsidising your stationery. I've asked more than one accountant about this and they have all said that it's "misleading".

vintagecosmos

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

I assume their point is that the 100k has been paid by the state in lost CT effectively subsidising your stationery.

it is a peculiar marketing message. Like if you cant convince them, confuse them.

They would have been better to say "here is why we are good value bla bla bla..."

ObiTwoKenobi

vintagecosmos wrote: »

it is a peculiar marketing message. Like if you cant convince them, confuse them.

They would have been better to say "here is why we are good value bla bla bla..."

Agreed. I don't have an objection to paying for Bullet. I pay outright for some software I use and lease others. That's OK. What I object to is that they set off as "free", became "freemium" and now are "premium", trapping the users after they have loaded several years of data onto their servers. Also the pricing model is a bit cynical, as the base package of 5-a-month for invoice and bills and not VAT returns is basically useless, so in effect it's €28 a month.

seamus

The "free, forever" thing was probably done in good faith. But as companies so often discover, when you give away the milk for free, nobody will buy the dairy cows that you're selling.
It's a common mistake I've seen with a lot of software startups. Where it would have made more sense to have usage limits that encouraged people to sign up without binding themselves into a "free forever" agreement.

At some point it was likely decided that the bad PR from shutting down free accounts was worth the cost savings/income that it would yield.

ObiTwoKenobi

seamus wrote: »

The "free, forever" thing was probably done in good faith. But as companies so often discover, when you give away the milk for free, nobody will buy the dairy cows that you're selling.
It's a common mistake I've seen with a lot of software startups. Where it would have made more sense to have usage limits that encouraged people to sign up without binding themselves into a "free forever" agreement.

At some point it was likely decided that the bad PR from shutting down free accounts was worth the cost savings/income that it would yield.

Yes agreed - I'm sure the business model was born out of naivety rather than anything else.

vintagecosmos

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

Yes agreed - I'm sure the business model was born out of naivety rather than anything else.

True. I suppose it would have been nice for users to have free honoured and fees for new customers. Or perhaps a one time payment for a licence.

onedmc

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

naivety

Closer to stupidity.

When I saw bullet was free forever, I simply though that's a bit stupid when you could have said "free for five years".

vintagecosmos

onedmc wrote: »

Closer to stupidity.

When I saw bullet was free forever, I simply though that's a bit stupid when you could have said "free for five years".

I suppose the question is, would you trust them to be around in the next few years if the shift to paid plans doesn't work?

I'm sure it's costly to maintain it with all the continuous changes, especially the PAYE online etc. Their website isn't in great shape too. Quite dated content and looks terrible on mobile.

To measure it against another Irish company, Big Red Cloud, has a strong paying customer base for years on their big red book software. Then they shifted to the cloud and seem to be going strong.

Wave is free, but they have a sustainable model in partnership with Stripe i.e. they charge standard rates to the client for online payments, but get a percentage from Stripe.

meijin

vintagecosmos wrote: »

Wave is free, but they have a sustainable model in partnership with Stripe i.e. they charge standard rates to the client for online payments, but get a percentage from Stripe.

3rd time you're suggesting Wave here... do you work for them?

vintagecosmos

meijin wrote: »

3rd time you're suggesting Wave here... do you work for them?

Nope. Just a user. What do you use for invoicing?

John_Mc

I never received any notification from them at all. I was paying for Payroll but nothing else. I logged in 2 days ago to find that I couldn't access any of my data and the price was now €28 + VAT.

It's not as if they have added a lot of new functionality over the last few years and really enhanced it to justify this massive increase. The UI is dated and very simplistic. The Android app never worked for me and I came across quite a lot of bugs over the years.

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

LOL yes I found them to be quite arrogant. Bullet would not accept new dates when my VAT reporting changed. They insisted that I had to talk to revenue as no-one else had the problem, but in fact I figured it out myself that their implementation was a bit quirky and got it entered. When I alerted them to the "problem" I was ignored. Another time they replied that display problems in the browser was the fault of my computer.

Yes, Pete is absolutely arrogant and horrible to deal with. The other girl didn't understand at all and was wasting my time with her suggestions.

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

Can anyone clarify another point? - Bullet told me "it's tax deductible, so it comes out of your tax not your profit, and so is in effect free". My accountant says that this is incorrect and the Bullet fees will come off your taxable profits before /U] tax is calculated. So the saving is actually 12.5%, not 100% or "free".

She said this to me also. It's so idiotic. Imagine justifying a pay rise to your boss with the same logic?

I had recommended Bullet to some contractors and now regret doing so as this terrible move by them. I wish them the worst as that's what they deserve after this.

ObiTwoKenobi

It will be interesting to see what happens. I imaging they're going to lose a lot of clients now as their value proposition is weak compared to the more established alternatives now at the same monthly price. The whole transition was handled poorly. They never offered any discount or anything by way of a customer loyalty program - I was paying for payroll only also.

I know that if I treated my customers with the same level of contempt I would not be in business at all.

vintagecosmos

Since I plugged wave so much looks like I'll need an alternative

https://community.waveapps.com/discussion/9686?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=101479219&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_OnhKLRMlhMldE0TTROi84BIqsB7lEHmF60D_8kAJMf3BlW7y7ASpRoOdEefE4ISA0Kz70vWM59kGMMLc2_M77b6RWeQ&utm_content=101479219&utm_source=hs_email

ObiTwoKenobi

OK so Bullet are obliged to retain your data but not obliged to give you access to it without payment.
I assume that is legal under the current laws? Just interested in any opinions out there.

For what it's worth my advice would be to get your data off the system (and also at regular intervals if you stay on board) for sake-keeping but they don't make that particularly easy. As far as I know there is no bulk dump for everything at once.

ObiTwoKenobi

vintagecosmos wrote: »

Since I plugged wave so much looks like I'll need an alternative

https://community.waveapps.com/discussion/9686?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=101479219&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_OnhKLRMlhMldE0TTROi84BIqsB7lEHmF60D_8kAJMf3BlW7y7ASpRoOdEefE4ISA0Kz70vWM59kGMMLc2_M77b6RWeQ&utm_content=101479219&utm_source=hs_email

Pity - this is only going to strengthen Bullet's position.

John_Mc

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

OK so Bullet are obliged to retain your data but not obliged to give you access to it without payment.
I assume that is legal under the current laws? Just interested in any opinions out there.

For what it's worth my advice would be to get your data off the system (and also at regular intervals if you stay on board) for sake-keeping but they don't make that particularly easy. As far as I know there is no bulk dump for everything at once.

I asked them to give me access to export my data or I'd submit a request under GDPR. They gave me 2 days free access.

You can export everything in the settings. At least I think it's everything but I haven't verified it yet.

Trojan

I've used FreeAgent (which is UK based) for about 11 years now.

I initially used it purely for invoicing (it supports Stripe & Paypal), but they have a full accounting system built in, which works great.

Recently I've had trouble connecting the BOI banking feed, and that has caused me to have to manually upload transactions, which is a pain, so I am considering moving to QuickBooks, but I'll probably stick with FreeAgent until 2020 accounts are completed next year.

ironclaw

ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »

OK so Bullet are obliged to retain your data but not obliged to give you access to it without payment.
I assume that is legal under the current laws? Just interested in any opinions out there.

Under GDPR, a company can charge a small fee (I think it's capped at 12EUR or something) to process a request. It's not widely known but it is part of the guidelines. However, that applies to an individual requesting their data.

As you would be asking for bulk export of your data as a business, it would depend on the contract and the terms in place. In theory, it should be free, as any well-designed system would have the ability to self serve and trigger a bulk export. The cost is minimal from the tech side. But if they had to do some digging and collecting, they could charge a reasonable fee for the export. The big question would be what is a 'reasonable' fee. Legally though, they could charge you for their time to do it.

return guide

Anybody having trouble logging on to Bullet since the new year?

John_Mc

return guide wrote: »

Anybody having trouble logging on to Bullet since the new year?

I can login but it brings me straight to the page to enter my credit card details as I've cancelled all payments.

It's useless now unless you pay them at least €320 a year

fm

return guide wrote: »

Anybody having trouble logging on to Bullet since the new year?

yes can't log on and no reply from them since yesterday.

vintagecosmos

John_Mc wrote: »

I can login but it brings me straight to the page to enter my credit card details as I've cancelled all payments.

It's useless now unless you pay them at least €320 a year

Jeepers. The definition of ransomware. Free forever.... Hope you get sorted.

John_Mc

vintagecosmos wrote: »

Jeepers. The definition of ransomware. Free forever.... Hope you get sorted.

Yeah it really is scandalous stuff. Luckily for me I've switched from contracting to PAYE so I'm not as dependent on it.

As a software engineer myself, I'm tempted to build a similar product that caters for the same user base that Bullet used to. I'd be nicer about it though and build a better product :pac:

vintagecosmos

John_Mc wrote: »

Yeah it really is scandalous stuff. Luckily for me I've switched from contracting to PAYE so I'm not as dependent on it.

As a software engineer myself, I'm tempted to build a similar product that caters for the same user base that Bullet used to. I'd be nicer about it though and build a better product :pac:

Plenty of grants out there if you do 😉

onedmc

John_Mc wrote: »

Yeah it really is scandalous stuff. Luckily for me I've switched from contracting to PAYE so I'm not as dependent on it.

As a software engineer myself, I'm tempted to build a similar product that caters for the same user base that Bullet used to. I'd be nicer about it though and build a better product :pac:

I figure they are looking to be taken over and need to get rid of costly underpaying customers to make it viable for a purchaser.

Also adding in payroll made it too complicated for a small company. Basic accounting features are easy to build but all the bells and whistles create the problems. Though it would be nice to see Irish VAT done right.

robbie1001

Same as, I simply went in to check an invoice and was logged out. Just put up a trustpilot review for all that it is worth. Shady stuff no better than a switch and bait / scammers / ransome ware site.

John_Mc

Yeah I left a review after seeing your post.

It says a lot that they still have "free" in their twitter byline. Says a lot really