The state of comments online about road traffic deaths and cycling

Spook_ie

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So to summarise, incidents of cyclists injuring pedestrians are:

- very rarely reported in the press
- never come up in Garda appeals for information
- never come from health insurance companies as a particular cause
- never come up as significant in various rounds of medical research looking at injuries treated by doctors

Meanwhile, drivers are killing 2 or 3 people each week (including 30-40 pedestrians each year), and seriously injuring about 10 people each week.

I can see why 'deflection' would be to the fore of your mind.

Talk about deflection, are you among those trying to say that if it isn't in the news it isn't happening?

Stark

We've had people feel the need to come on here and start threads because a cyclist came within a metre of them and stopped. Or passed within a couple of metres without using a bell. Yes, I'm very certain that if we're not hearing about it then it isn't happening. It's like air traffic control, every "near miss" is news.

Thelonious Monk

Yes it's always the same, "The amount of times I've nearly been hit by cyclists on the footpath!".

breezy1985

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes it's always the same, "The amount of times I've nearly been hit by cyclists on the footpath!".

I've had people scream this at me as I pass them while they are walking down a cycle lane

AndrewJRenko

Spook_ie wrote: »

Talk about deflection, are you among those trying to say that if it isn't in the news it isn't happening?

What I'm saying is what I've actually said - that as a public health or public safety issue, it is a negligible issue. More people are killed by wasps than by cyclists.

The much vaunted 'granny got nearly murdered by a cyclist on the footpath' doesn't appear in any medical research or Garda report or other credible source.

Do some people get hit and actually injured by cyclists on footpath? Yes, I'm sure they do.

Is this a public health or public safety issue that deserves any significant attention, while we have drivers killing 2 or 3 people each week on our roads?

No. No, it's not.

breezy1985

If the granny tripped over the curb of a normal path would we be talking about it on the newspapers?

No is the answer

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

Well hidden among the posts are things like this

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114450902&postcount=3516



So as the question I posed wasn't answered I'll ask it again

Ok so falling off a bike hurts. Tripping over a pavement and falling hurts. Not sure what the point is? Should all pavements wear hi-viz? If walking and cycling is so deadly, should people who drive cars have to wear helmets?

Spook_ie

07Lapierre wrote: »

Ok so falling off a bike hurts. Tripping over a pavement and falling hurts. Not sure what the point is? Should all pavements wear hi-viz? If walking and cycling is so deadly, should people who drive cars have to wear helmets?

So does being ridden into by someone on a bicycle hurt, according to some then
a No it doesn't
and
b If it does we're cyclists and it doesn't happen often enough for us to care

Phil.x

https://mol.im/a/8973709

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

So does being ridden into by someone on a bicycle hurt, according to some then
a No it doesn't
and
b If it does we're cyclists and it doesn't happen often enough for us to care

Yep that’s right. Thousands of people are being injured and killed every week! It’s such a huge problem, the left wing media cover it up by blaming all these injuries on motorists and Covid-19! Ask Trump he’ll tell you the truth.

magicbastarder

Phil.x wrote: »

https://mol.im/a/8973709

presented without comment?
or even a hint as to what the article was about.

anyway, i think the journalist's ire is somewhat misplaced. or else he doesn't understand the implications of what he's writing about.

edit: i am loathe to describe someone who works for the mail as a 'journalist'.

breezy1985

Agree please warn people before we go giving that Nazi rag clicks

magicbastarder

to summarise, so people don't have to click on a daily mail link which is kinda disguised - the daily mail have a shock horror story citing this estimate that every £5000 spent on cycling infrastructure adds one commuting cyclist to cyclist numbers:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X2030215X

or else, shock horror! - infrastructure is expensive.

the widening of the M50 cost about a billion and i think increased its capacity by about 50,000 daily motorists. or €20,000 *per motorist* added to the road.

let's say they did that level of investment for cyclists, taking the above spend; a billion spent on cycling would add - by the study they cite without critique - nearly 200,000 cyclists. i.e. fantastic value for money, compared to building infrastructure for motorists.

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

to summarise, so people don't have to click on a daily mail link which is kinda disguised - the daily mail have a shock horror story citing this estimate that every £5000 spent on cycling infrastructure adds one commuting cyclist to cyclist numbers:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X2030215X

or else, shock horror! - infrastructure is expensive.

the widening of the M50 cost about a billion and i think increased its capacity by about 50,000 daily motorists. or €20,000 *per motorist* added to the road.

let's say they did that level of investment for cyclists, taking the above spend; a billion spent on cycling would add - by the study they cite without critique - nearly 200,000 cyclists. i.e. fantastic value for money, compared to building infrastructure for motorists.

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/charlie-weston-the-amount-of-tax-paid-by-motorists-is-unfair-and-it-is-high-time-it-was-reduced-37017911.html

The total tax take from motorists has been rising steadily in recent years. It now stands at over €5.4bn a year, according to Dail replies received by Fianna Fail spokesman Michael McGrath.

How typical though as a cyclist to neglect (as usual) the taxation that motorists pay, wonder what we should spend the other €4.5 billion on, maybe some cycle lanes for the cyclists to moan about (as usual)

a_squirrelman

Spook_ie wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/charlie-weston-the-amount-of-tax-paid-by-motorists-is-unfair-and-it-is-high-time-it-was-reduced-37017911.html


How typical though as a cyclist to neglect (as usual) the taxation that motorists pay, wonder what we should spend the other €4.5 billion on, maybe some cycle lanes for the cyclists to moan about (as usual)

You know loads of cyclists are motorists as well right?

breezy1985

Spook_ie wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/charlie-weston-the-amount-of-tax-paid-by-motorists-is-unfair-and-it-is-high-time-it-was-reduced-37017911.html


How typical though as a cyclist to neglect (as usual) the taxation that motorists pay, wonder what we should spend the other €4.5 billion on, maybe some cycle lanes for the cyclists to moan about (as usual)

I will follow up the usual tax moan with the usual motor tax isn't the only income source for road projects. The EU and income tax play a large part too

AndrewJRenko

Spook_ie wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/charlie-weston-the-amount-of-tax-paid-by-motorists-is-unfair-and-it-is-high-time-it-was-reduced-37017911.html


How typical though as a cyclist to neglect (as usual) the taxation that motorists pay, wonder what we should spend the other €4.5 billion on, maybe some cycle lanes for the cyclists to moan about (as usual)

Charlie knows how to play to the gallery, for sure. Pity he forgot to cover the other side of the income and expenditure account, and cover the total damage to the environment caused by motorists, the cost of the motorist's share of the 1500 premature deaths each year, the costs of the obesity, diabetes, hypertension, coronary heart disease, cancer and more that arise from our car-bound lifestyle.

There's a reason why other countries are paying cyclists to cycle.

magicbastarder

Spook_ie wrote: »

How typical though as a cyclist to neglect (as usual) the taxation that motorists pay

i'm a motorist too.

breezy1985

How about we make a deal.
All motor tax will go to roads but nothing else and in exchange all the public infrastructure money and EU money goes to pedestrians and cyclists and we'll see how long it takes before the motorists come back crying.

Also all the road signage clogging up public paths gets moved on to the roads and cars actually stay off public paths

SeanW

breezy1985 wrote: »

How about we make a deal.
All motor tax will go to roads but nothing else and in exchange all the public infrastructure money and EU money goes to pedestrians and cyclists and we'll see how long it takes before the motorists come back crying.

I was unaware that motorists who paid motoring related taxes were automatically exempt from paying any other forms of general taxation as well. Unless such a rule has been made that I am not aware of, it's safe to say motorists pay their fair share, that is even if motoring related taxes don't pay for road needs.

breezy1985 wrote: »

Agree please warn people before we go giving that Nazi rag clicks

Perhaps you read the Daily Mail more than myself, but I don't recall them publishing an article calling for Jews, gays, Slavs etc. to be gassed in concentration camps ... or an invasion of Poland, or a policy of Lebensraum. Though I'm sure (like a lot of other claims that have been made in this thread :rolleyes:) that you have evidence that the Daily Mail adheres to core tenets of fascism or World War II era national socialism.

Spook_ie

a_squirrelman wrote: »

You know loads of cyclists are motorists as well right?

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm a motorist too.

And your motoring taxes are a welcome addition to the 5.5 billion that motorists pay, now how exactly does that square with the £5000 per cyclist? or perhaps you think that because you're a motorist and a cyclist that it means you can spend the taxation twice?

a_squirrelman

Spook_ie wrote: »

And your motoring taxes are a welcome addition to the 5.5 billion that motorists pay, now how exactly does that square with the £5000 per cyclist? or perhaps you think that because you're a motorist and a cyclist that it means you can spend the taxation twice?

I obviously don't get your issue, or perhaps I missed it earlier. Infrastructure costs money, so you don't think any money should be spent on cycling?

magicbastarder

i would prefer my taxes are spent on infrastructure which leads to less gridlock/air pollution/greater efficiency etc.

anyway, unlike many punters, i accept that motor tax is a tax, not a fee, and that it doesn't necessarily need to be spent on the activity it was levied on. that'd be a weird way to run a country.

AndrewJRenko

Interesting data on costs of motoring and cycling.

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1331124600449626112?s=19

Duckjob

https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/tax-breaks-bike-commuters-european-trend

There's a reason governments of countries in mainland Europe are now investing heavily in proper cycle infrastructure and actually going so far as giving people per km tax breaks to cycle to work.

It's not some altruistic act on the part of those governments - they understand that it's an incredibly sound investment, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

SeanW

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Interesting data on costs of motoring and cycling.

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1331124600449626112?s=19

So if the government raises VRT, (or fuel duty, or road/"motor" tax) by €1,000 per year, that means the cost to society has risen by €9200 per year? By that calculation, the cost to society as determined by taxes levied on Irish motorists is €49.68 billion (motoring taxes net €5.4 billion per year) and that's just from what people spend on motoring related taxes. If you include the portion of Irish motorist expenditure that is not taxation (hypothetically let's guesstimate that tax takes up 1/3 of a motorists expenditure) then that means - according to your twitter post - that motoring costs the Irish people €149.04 billion per year. All of that with absolutely zero benefits to the people from personal mobility, the delivery of goods etc.

(€5.4 * 3 * 9.2 = €149.04)

I would love to see the details for how your study can prove that motoring costs the Irish people anything like that ... all with no benefits to society for such an inordinate sum.

Stark

Saw a Facebook post the other day regarding the introduction of variable speed limits on the M50 (A measure designed to improve traffic flow and ultimately allow people to get where they want to go more quickly). After reading the long thread of comments with people nearly unanimously up in arms ("war on motorists", "cyclists again", "how are deliveries supposed to be made on time", etc.), I've come to the conclusion that you are dealing with people of very low intelligence and no amount of education or convincing is going to work.

Pinch Flat

Stark wrote: »

Saw a Facebook post the other day regarding the introduction of variable speed limits on the M50 (A measure designed to improve traffic flow and ultimately allow people to get where they want to go more quickly). After reading the long thread of comments with people nearly unanimously up in arms ("war on motorists", "cyclists again", "how are deliveries supposed to be made on time", etc.), I've come to the conclusion that you are dealing with people of very low intelligence and no amount of education or convincing is going to work.

yeah motorist's logic can be weird ok. The roads are generally grid locked around Dublin by - you've guessed it - other motorists. I've never seen a post of FB "held up by the 1000's of cars in front of me on my way to work this morning". Usually it's is a hyperbolic over reaction to a few cyclists on a Sunday while someone's popping out for the Sunday papers a few hundred meters from their home "I was held up for almost 10km behind a bunch of lyra clad fools, travelling 7 abreast and having a good chat. And they don't even pay "road tax".

Thelonious Monk

https://www.thejournal.ie/clancy-amendment-5277149-Nov2020

So many commenters seem to be of the opinion that it's ok to drive without a licence. This is what you're up against.

My favourite one, it's actually scary

Between 2014 – 2017 there were 35 fatalities in road accidents involving unaccompanied leaner drivers, but over the same period in total there were 703 fatalities, so clearly the figures don’t support the demonising unaccompanied learner drivers.

Ah sure it's only 35 people killed by people who weren't on the road legally.

magicbastarder

if you were to stop a car at random, what are the chances the driver is an unaccompanied learner?
i.e. is it greater or less than the 5% the fatality figures show?