The state of comments online about road traffic deaths and cycling

Thelonious Monk

MODERATOR NOTE: Moved the first 22 posts here to a new thread as few of them relate to speed limits in Dublin and thus off-topic on the 30km/h thread.

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-hit-by-truck-charleville-5212906-Sep2020/

This man was killed today. I had a look at the street he was killed on, typical straight road going through a typical car dominated town. We don't know the details but this kind of thing should not be happening in a town centre. If you look at the street here, you'll see it's just a straight road that you could put the foot down on if you wanted, even though it's a town centre. The street should not be designed like this, it should not be possible to floor it on a main street of a town.
I would guess this man's death could have been avoided if the street wasn't designed purely for cars.

Also why do Journal commenters only comment on road accident articles if bicycles are involved?

SeanW

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-hit-by-truck-charleville-5212906-Sep2020/

This man was killed today. I had a look at the street he was killed on, typical straight road going through a typical car dominated town. We don't know the details but this kind of thing should not be happening in a town centre. If you look at the street here, you'll see it's just a straight road that you could put the foot down on if you wanted, even though it's a town centre. The street should not be designed like this, it should not be possible to floor it on a main street of a town.
I would guess this man's death could have been avoided if the street wasn't designed purely for cars.

Also why do Journal commenters only comment on road accident articles if bicycles are involved?

Firstly, RIP to the pedestrian.

I would caution against reading too much into that accident for two reasons:

1. Firstly, and this is the most important, Main St. Charleville comprises part of the main Cork-Limerick road. As such, much of the traffic *in* Charleville has no business there and is only passing through. But a "street" that is serving as a main long distance road can never function effectively as a street. This situation should improve if/when the M20 is built and the town is bypassed. At least then, drivers in the town will be there because they have reason to be there.
2. We don't know the details of the accident, culpability etc.

Thelonious Monk

SeanW wrote: »

Firstly, RIP to the pedestrian.

I would caution against reading too much into that accident for two reasons:

1. Firstly, and this is the most important, Main St. Charleville comprises part of the main Cork-Limerick road. As such, much of the traffic *in* Charleville has no business there and is only passing through. But a "street" that is serving as a main long distance road can never function effectively as a street. This situation should improve if/when the M20 is built and the town is bypassed. At least then, drivers in the town will be there because they have reason to be there.
2. We don't know the details of the accident, culpability etc.

We don't know the details but I would wager the anti-pedestrian layout of the town is responsible for this man's death. Most towns in Ireland are like this, planning disasters.

MJohnston

I don't know that you can attribute any of this to planning, rather to a lack of it.

It's the same lack of planning that has allowed streets in Dublin City to become 2 lane dual carriageways with equivalent design speed limits.

Thelonious Monk

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't know that you can attribute any of this to planning, rather to a lack of it.

It's the same lack of planning that has allowed streets in Dublin City to become 2 lane dual carriageways with equivalent design speed limits.

Lack of planning is what I meant yeah

Thelonious Monk

I'm finding this just ridiculous at this stage. Once again a teenager dies in a horror crash last night, 3 comments on the Journal. No one cares, and it's likely they could have been speeding or drunk. Why aren't the road safety enthusiasts that appear on cycling articles all over these deaths? It's a teenager ffs.

Zebra3

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm finding this just ridiculous at this stage. Once again a teenager dies in a horror crash last night, 3 comments on the Journal. No one cares, and it's likely they could have been speeding or drunk. Why aren't the road safety enthusiasts that appear on cycling articles all over these deaths? It's a teenager ffs.

Hatred.

Thelonious Monk

Zebra3 wrote: »

Hatred.

They're clearly hating the wrong people

SeanW

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We don't know the details but I would wager the anti-pedestrian layout of the town is responsible for this man's death. Most towns in Ireland are like this, planning disasters.

Just to clarify, are you suggesting the fact that the town's main street is also the main Cork-Limerick road had nothing to do with it? Would it not be relevant that 10,000-20,000 vehicles whose drivers have no business in the town are being forced through it?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm finding this just ridiculous at this stage. Once again a teenager dies in a horror crash last night, 3 comments on the Journal. No one cares, and it's likely they could have been speeding or drunk. Why aren't the road safety enthusiasts that appear on cycling articles all over these deaths? It's a teenager ffs.

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-dies-crash-co-mayo-5214360-Sep2020/

I'm not sure I understand the problem. There were 3 comments, all along the lines of "condolences" and "RIP". Seems perfectly appropriate for a tragedy of this kind.

Thelonious Monk

SeanW wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand the problem. There were 3 comments, all along the lines of "condolences" and "RIP". Seems perfectly appropriate for a tragedy of this kind.

Why were there 50+ on the bicycle death last week with many of them blaming the cyclist? The 84 year old pedestrian killed the other day had 3 comments I think.
How come people aren't going on about motorists they saw speeding or breaking lights, so it's no wonder the teenager died?
There's no point discussing this with you I know, but I just find the whole thing fascinating, the hatred that is aimed at cyclists.

MJohnston

It’s truly fücked up that The Journal leave comments open for stories about deaths. Really inappropriate imo.

But anyway, this is all off topic.

Thelonious Monk

MJohnston wrote: »

It’s truly fücked up that The Journal leave comments open for stories about deaths. Really inappropriate imo.

But anyway, this is all off topic.

I agree, especially when you see how toxic they can get if there's a bicycle involved

Spook_ie

Nothing to do with the toxicity that comes from some cyclists then?

"Funny how two journal commenters witnessed the crash on such a narrow road. I wouldn't be surprised if they're making it up so they can blame the cyclist, that's how f*cked up they are."

Cyclists don’t help themselves.

Thelonious Monk

Spook_ie wrote: »

Nothing to do with the toxicity that comes from some cyclists then?

"Funny how two journal commenters witnessed the crash on such a narrow road. I wouldn't be surprised if they're making it up so they can blame the cyclist, that's how f*cked up they are."

I stand by that, with all the victim blaming that goes on and the hatred for cyclists displayed.
There was a man on an electric scooter killed last night, again 50+ comments.
I just don't get why people are so quick to judge if there's a bike or scooter involved, but zero interest if it's just the usual cars killing other motorists or killing pedestrians.
Anyway this is all off topic, but I would think more 30kp/h areas would save lives.

Thelonious Monk

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Cyclists don’t help themselves.

what do you mean?

Diarmuid

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

what do you mean?

He means he once saw a cyclist break a red light hence all other cyclists are fair game for criticism

Thelonious Monk

Diarmuid wrote: »

He means he once saw a cyclist break a red light hence all other cyclists are fair game for criticism

And fair game to be run over and killed

MJohnston

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Cyclists don’t help themselves.

When it comes to road safety, there’s very little cyclists *can* do to help themselves.

Unfortunately driver education doesn’t really work, for whatever reason, and the Garda have decided to not bother enforcing road laws in general.

The only things that has a possibility of working in Dublin is car reduction measures.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.thejournal.ie/pedestrian-killed-van-douglas-cork-5215706-Sep2020/

Another elderly pedestrian killed by a motorist. In a car park ffs. 2 or 3 RIPs should be all we see here.

monument

MODERATOR NOTE: Moved the first 22 posts here to a new thread as few of them relate to speed limits in Dublin and thus off-topic on the 30km/h thread.

is_that_so

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Lack of planning is what I meant yeah

Eh it's a 1200 year old city that has evolved with a warren of streets. For the vast majority of that time people couldn't tell you what a car or bicycle is. Blame games are not solutions, even if they make you feel good.

is_that_so

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We don't know the details but I would wager the anti-pedestrian layout of the town is responsible for this man's death. Most towns in Ireland are like this, planning disasters.

The problem about rants is that they get completely ignored. What exactly is anti-pedestrian? No paths and hills?

What's the point of this thread exactly? Using the comments section of road fatality articles on one website to set up another cyclysts v the rest of the world scenario?

A lot of town mainstreets were designed a long time before cars came along.

Thelonious Monk

is_that_so wrote: »

What exactly is anti-pedestrian? No paths and hills?

lack of pedestrian crossing, no traffic calming measures put in place

is_that_so

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

lack of pedestrian crossing, no traffic calming measures put in place

Can easily think of at least a dozen places off the top of my head which tick all of these boxes. One street is not the whole country.

monument

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the point of this thread exactly?

To discuss what's in the topic title, not just what's in the opening post. There's more than enough demand for such a discussion given that such discussion crops up in a load of other threads.

If you don't want to discuss such in line with the forum's charter, there's no need to comment.

-- Moderator

monument

is_that_so wrote: »

Eh it's a 1200 year old city that has evolved with a warren of streets. For the vast majority of that time people couldn't tell you what a car or bicycle is. Blame games are not solutions, even if they make you feel good.

You mean you cannot design safe streets in old cities?

monument

monument wrote: »

To discuss what's in the topic title, not just what's in the opening post. There's more than enough demand for such a discussion given that such discussion crops up in a load of other threads.

If you don't want to discuss such in line with the forum's charter, there's no need to comment.

-- Moderator

The title says road traffic deaths And cycling. The topic seems to be road traffic deaths V cycling deaths.
Poor taste topic in my opinion seeing as you are talking about real tragedies that effect real families and using it as another cyclist agenda thread.

monument

Deleted User wrote: »

The title says road traffic deaths And cycling. The topic seems to be road traffic deaths V cycling deaths.
Poor taste topic in my opinion seeing as you are talking about real tragedies that effect real families and using it as another cyclist agenda thread.

Read the charter: No responding to moderation in-thread.

The topic is not road traffic deaths V cycling deaths. Cycling deaths are in fact also real tragedies that effect real families.

-- moderator

Spook_ie

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

lack of pedestrian crossing, no traffic calming measures put in place

Would seem that there was a pedestrian facility within 20 yards and that it wasn't speed as the cause but blind spots on HGVs and pedestrians crossing where it's convenient for them .

A tragic incident but traffic calming and pedestrian facilities would not likely have had an effect on the circumstances.

Father of four Eddie Goggin (83) from Beech Avenue, Brindle Hill in Charleville, was crossing Main Street in the town just before 11am on Wednesday when he was struck by a truck.

Mr Goggin was crossing through the traffic which was stopped and less than 20 yards from a pedestrian crossing when the traffic began to move off and he was fatally injured.

The emergency services were alerted and paramedics and personnel from Charleville Fire Brigade were quickly on the scene and worked to save Mr Goggin but he was pronounced dead at the scene.

SeanW

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why were there 50+ on the bicycle death last week with many of them blaming the cyclist? The 84 year old pedestrian killed the other day had 3 comments I think.
How come people aren't going on about motorists they saw speeding or breaking lights, so it's no wonder the teenager died?
There's no point discussing this with you I know, but I just find the whole thing fascinating, the hatred that is aimed at cyclists.

I'm asking because I genuinely did not understand the problem. I had to look up the first article and on a prima facie basis, 3 comments along the lines of "RIP" seemed appropriate. Is your problem with these comments specifically or comments on other articles? Or both?

Then there were things that I found disturbing, like when you said "It's a teenager, ffs." Not he - it. And that after a bunch of speculation about him drinking or speeding.

I also want to repeat my question regarding the case in Charleville specifically, because you seem to have avoided that. Do you seriously expect a so-called "Main Street" that forms part of a major intercity thoroughfare can function effectively as a street with 10,000-20,000 through movements a day?

MJohnston wrote: »

When it comes to road safety, there’s very little cyclists *can* do to help themselves.

Well they could start by obeying road laws.

Unfortunately driver education doesn’t really work, for whatever reason, and the Garda have decided to not bother enforcing road laws in general.

Yes, it's all doom-and-gloom and everything is so horrible ... Yet Ireland has among the safest roads in the world, provably so by every measure and to a large degree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
I wonder if this has anything to do with it?

magicbastarder

SeanW wrote: »

Yet Ireland has among the safest roads in the world, provably so by every measure and to a large degree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

you say every measure, but keep repeating a single stat.
so i'll keep repeating the shark filled pool analogy.

SeanW

magicbastarder wrote: »

you say every measure, but keep repeating a single stat.
so i'll keep repeating the shark filled pool analogy.

Actually no, not just a single stat but a variety of measurements. Absolute numbers (like 148 died last year) are of little use in comparing road safety in one country vs. others because countries have different population sizes, some countries are more rural others more urban etc. That's why you have to look at not just absolute fatality counts, but fatalities per 100,000 inhabitants, per 100,000 vehicles and per billion kilometres driven. These add context to the absolute numbers. My defense of Irish drivers comes from the fact that our fatality statistics compare well with the international context under all of these headings.

More broadly though, if I understand your analogy correctly, it's that Irish roads are actually very dangerous, ergo people opt not to cycle (pedestrians don't have any such issue) and so don't get killed. Whereas in other countries where things are "safer" more people would cycle and then get killed ... so we should be like those countries where more people die?

My response to that would be very simple:

1. The supposed shark filled pool analogy does not apply to active travel as a whole - as a lifelong pedestrian in Ireland's major cities, towns and countryside, fear of horrible Irish motorists doesn't stop me from walking wherever I want, and it doesn't stop countless thousands of others from walking wherever and whenever they want or need. The data bears out my experience that if you have a bit of cop-on you're probably going to be OK.
2. The fact that people are not dying is a good thing in and of itself, surely?
3. The fact that people are not dying, ipso facto, is evidence that at least some decisions are being made correctly.

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

you say every measure, but keep repeating a single stat.
so i'll keep repeating the shark filled pool analogy.

Yet people will swim in a large pool (The sea) with a large number of sharks, so your analogy is that we need a bigger pool ( more roads )?

whisky_galore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also why do Journal commenters only comment on road accident articles if bicycles are involved?

Because motorists and cyclists hate one another, isn't it obvious?

Thelonious Monk

whisky_galore wrote: »

Because motorists and cyclists hate one another, isn't it obvious?

I am both and I don't think I hate myself

whisky_galore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I am both and I don't think I hate myself

I'll cut your spaghetti into small pieces for you to eat... because SOME cyclists and SOME motorists hate each other.

Stark

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I am both and I don't think I hate myself

I'm both though I usually find myself arguing against the motorist views as that's where the bulk of the entitlement culture seems to be on display.

Thelonious Monk

whisky_galore wrote: »

I'll cut your spaghetti into small pieces for you to eat... because SOME cyclists and SOME motorists hate each other.

Well I would say most cyclists drive. It's just when you see all the vitriol aimed at cyclists and victim blaming when there's a cycling accident, you'd start to think there's an irrational hatred of them out there.
Anyway, these conversations go on forever with no resolution. They seem to be slowly improving cycling facilities in Dublin and hopefully separate cycling infrastructure will lead to a better relationship between motorists and cyclists if they can't bother each other.

Zebra3

Anyone who thinks the roads are safe must never cycle.

I haven't been killed yet while out cycling, yet the amount of close passes I get while cycling for 30 minutes on the road is absolutely frightening.

But you know, the cars haven't actually hit me yet, so all is well. :rolleyes:

jackofalltrades

Spook_ie wrote: »

Would seem that there was a pedestrian facility within 20 yards and that it wasn't speed as the cause but blind spots on HGVs and pedestrians crossing where it's convenient for them .

Blind spots shouldn't exist in this day and age.
It's madness that we accept large vehicles driving around where the driver can't see what's going on around them.

Duckjob

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Blind spots shouldn't exist in this day and age.
It's madness that we accept large vehicles driving around where the driver can't see what's going on around them.

When driving around rural Netherlands last year, one of the things that struck me was the attention to sight-lines. They simply don't allow roads not to have a clear line of sight when there's a junction, a roundabout etc. We just don't "get" the importance of proper sight-lines here

AndrewJRenko

Zebra3 wrote: »

Anyone who thinks the roads are safe must never cycle.

I disagree. The roads are quite safe.

It's the bloody drivers that are dangerous.

Spook_ie

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I stand by that, with all the victim blaming that goes on and the hatred for cyclists displayed.
There was a man on an electric scooter killed last night, again 50+ comments.
I just don't get why people are so quick to judge if there's a bike or scooter involved, but zero interest if it's just the usual cars killing other motorists or killing pedestrians.
Anyway this is all off topic, but I would think more 30kp/h areas would save lives.

Yep loads of comments about drunk drivers, scumbag hit n run etc.

https://www.thejournal.ie/death-scooter-user-co-meath-5215455-Sep2020/#comments


Wonder where they've all ****ed off to now?

https://www.thejournal.ie/escooter-meath-5216545-Sep2020/#comments

SeanW

Yeah the comments were hilarious. The initial comments were full of speculation about hit and run drivers, there was one poster in particular (Fun Gerry) who was just ranting about "cars need to go" "he was murdered" and then some bizarre conspiracy theories about how the "car industry" was silencing him.

It will surprise precisely nobody this this fellow did not post under the updated article when the investigation showed this to be most likely a single vehicle accident (like a lot of our fatal accidents).

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I disagree. The roads are quite safe.

It's the bloody drivers that are dangerous.

Again, the facts don't really support your narrative. Some road profiles, by their very nature, decrease or increase the risk to all road users, all other things being equal. Things like the post above that you thanked, talking about how Dutch junctions have much better sight lines.

Or, where you have a large traffic flow, e.g. Cork-Limerick, such flows are safer on something like a motorway, as opposed to being funneled through small towns, like Charleville and it's main street.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

MODERATOR NOTE: Moved the first 22 posts here to a new thread as few of them relate to speed limits in Dublin and thus off-topic on the 30km/h thread.

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-hit-by-truck-charleville-5212906-Sep2020/

This man was killed today. I had a look at the street he was killed on, typical straight road going through a typical car dominated town. We don't know the details but this kind of thing should not be happening in a town centre. If you look at the street here, you'll see it's just a straight road that you could put the foot down on if you wanted, even though it's a town centre. The street should not be designed like this, it should not be possible to floor it on a main street of a town.
I would guess this man's death could have been avoided if the street wasn't designed purely for cars.

Again, I have to ask the OP:

1. Do you expect Charleville Main "Street" to be able to function effectively as a street - under any circumstances - when it also forms part of the main Cork-Limerick road?
2. Do you not see a problem with ramming 10,000-20,000 through vehicles per day through a town's main street?
3. What is your position on the proposed M20 motorway?

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

Yeah the comments were hilarious. The initial comments were full of speculation about hit and run drivers, there was one poster in particular (Fun Gerry) who was just ranting about "cars need to go" "he was murdered" and then some bizarre conspiracy theories about how the "car industry" was silencing him.

It will surprise precisely nobody this this fellow did not post under the updated article when the investigation showed this to be most likely a single vehicle accident (like a lot of our fatal accidents).

Again, the facts don't really support your narrative. Some road profiles, by their very nature, decrease or increase the risk to all road users, all other things being equal. Things like the post above that you thanked, talking about how Dutch junctions have much better sight lines.

Or, where you have a large traffic flow, e.g. Cork-Limerick, such flows are safer on something like a motorway, as opposed to being funneled through small towns, like Charleville and it's main street.

Again, I have to ask the OP:

1. Do you expect Charleville Main "Street" to be able to function effectively as a street - under any circumstances - when it also forms part of the main Cork-Limerick road?
2. Do you not see a problem with ramming 10,000-20,000 through vehicles per day through a town's main street?
3. What is your position on the proposed M20 motorway?

We’ve more than enough motorways. We need better public transport. We need to invest in public transport, improve broadband in rural areas to allow more workers to work from home or at least work locally. Etc.

Spook_ie

07Lapierre wrote: »

We’ve more than enough motorways. We need better public transport. We need to invest in public transport, improve broadband in rural areas to allow more workers to work from home or at least work locally. Etc.

Yeah more PT between Limerick and Cork will solve the fundamental problem of Charleville in that everything goes down the main street.

beauf

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

....
Also why do Journal commenters only comment on road accident articles if bicycles are involved?

Journal is really a cesspit for comments. Its entirely pointless reading it, its full of tolls and baiting. Best not to read it. Same with boards. Just put the usual suspects on ignore and the thread immediately improves. Indeed lightens the whole mood as they are just out to sow misery.

The media focus on click bait, means they have a anti cyclist agenda as it populist.

But what this has done, is to sow the idea that its dangerous to cycle and you must drive everywhere. I was remined this, in a recent discussion where people objected furiously to the idea of a 5 min diversion in a car, kids walking 25 mins, or indeed cycling 15 mins. End result congestion all over. Complaining about gridlock, but no concept of the idea that you don't want traffic, don't be traffic. Just doesn't seem to sink in.

What is needed is a cultural mindset shift. We are long way from that. The medias anti cycling agenda, just reinforces this constantly.

Let people be traffic, just do your own thing. That includes never reading comments on social media like the journal, from crazy people.

Thelonious Monk

There was a girl knocked off a bike by a bus on Parnell st yesterday, the comments on the article on Facebook were from grown men and women with pictures of their kids in their profile pictures and using their real names, expressing their delight in the accident, and hoping that the bus driver was ok. These are fellow Irish people making these comments about the poor girl. So yeah, never going down that rabbit hole again, found it quite upsetting.

magicbastarder

beauf wrote: »

The media focus on click bait, means they have a anti cyclist agenda as it populist.

also, many of the main news shows on radio are sponsored by car companies (or maybe it just seems that way), so radio stations are not likely to have segments critical of motorists.