Land with no entitlements

morphy87

I am after getting the opportunity to lease 40 acres, the land is eligible for disadvantaged area but there are no entitlements in the land, I am a young trained farmer with an off farm job,I am just wondering if I leased the land would I be entitled to calm anything on it?

keepalive213

morphy87 wrote: »

I am after getting the opportunity to lease 40 acres, the land is eligible for disadvantaged area but there are no entitlements in the land, I am a young trained farmer with an off farm job,I am just wondering if I leased the land would I be entitled to calm anything on it?

I asked a similar question here a while back and never got an answer, ask your planner.

Good loser

You could probably purchase entitlements and attach them to the land.

The high value entitlements are dearer than the low value ones. You can purchase outright.

Check with Teagasc.

morphy87

Good loser wrote: »

You could probably purchase entitlements and attach them to the land.

The high value entitlements are dearer than the low value ones. You can purchase outright.

Check with Teagasc.

I thought with naked land you could apply for national reserve through the young farmers scheme?

mr.stonewall

morphy87 wrote: »

I thought with naked land you could apply for national reserve through the young farmers scheme?

When the national reserve was open you could apply of entitlements for naked or low value entitlements to bring them up to national average. Part of the deal was that if you had off farm income it had to be below 40k gross. Don't know if the national reserve will run with the new cap on the way whenever it gets going. You have to weigh up the options, but for me it would buy low value and very low value entitlements for this land.

morphy87

mr.stonewall wrote: »

When the national reserve was open you could apply of entitlements for naked or low value entitlements to bring them up to national average. Part of the deal was that if you had off farm income it had to be below 40k gross. Don't know if the national reserve will run with the new cap on the way whenever it gets going. You have to weigh up the options, but for me it would buy low value and very low value entitlements for this land.

What do you call low value entitlements? And what would be the advantages of buying low value entitlements?

mr.stonewall

morphy87 wrote: »

What do you call low value entitlements? And what would be the advantages of buying low value entitlements?

With convergence of entitlements on the cards to some level. Makes the lower entitlements a better bet. Preference would be entitlements would be around the 80-120 bracket

Sheep breeder

Handy thing to do is lease entitlements and start off.

morphy87

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Handy thing to do is lease entitlements and start off.

How does leasing work? I presume they would be worth half there value?

Bass Reeves

mr.stonewall wrote: »

With convergence of entitlements on the cards to some level. Makes the lower entitlements a better bet. Preference would be entitlements would be around the 80-120 bracket

Lowest value entitlements are 150 euro/HA now.

morphy87

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Lowest value entitlements are 150 euro/HA now.

Is that 150 to buy them or are they worth 150 to claim off?

mr.stonewall

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Lowest value entitlements are 150 euro/HA now.

Not in the market. Hadn't realised that convergence had already bought it up to that level. Is the €150/ha including or ex greening

Bass Reeves

mr.stonewall wrote: »

Not in the market. Hadn't realised that convergence had already bought it up to that level. Is the €150/ha including or ex greening

We are at the end of this phase of CAP all entitlements have a minimum base value of 150 euro and a max of 750. This includes greening. In the next phase they are to go to minimum of 200/HA I think

Earnshaw

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We are at the end of this phase of CAP all entitlements have a minimum base value of 150 euro and a max of 750. This includes greening. In the next phase they are to go to minimum of 200/HA I think

For entitlements that cost €200/HA to buy..., I understand that this does NOT mean you can claim €200/HA every year under BPS - but how do you find out how much you can claim from them?

wrangler

Earnshaw wrote: »

For entitlements that cost €200/HA to buy..., I understand that this does NOT mean you can claim €200/HA every year under BPS - but how do you find out how much you can claim from them?

That'll be stated the day you buy them, but be careful the whole thing is going to be changed after 2022, and no one has any indication of what's coming.
What's proposed is that you'll be paid for minding the environment and not so much on a per hectare basis so it might be halved with good opportunity to top up on environment schemes.
Just be aware anything could happen, all the successful parts of CAP reform 2013 were introduced the last year of negotiations.
A saying that I heard many times in IFA and proved to be true many times too.

'' All deals are done in the last ten minutes of negotiations, the problem is to know when it's the last ten minutes''

J.O. Farmer

Earnshaw wrote: »

For entitlements that cost €200/HA to buy..., I understand that this does NOT mean you can claim €200/HA every year under BPS - but how do you find out how much you can claim from them?

Entitlements have a face value of X (say €200). It's 1 entitlement per hectare so this is the value you claim on them.

To buy them you will pay a multiple of the face value.

Leasing them in for 1 year you will pay a percentage of the face value, the higher the value the bigger the percentage. I think it's around 66% for average value entitlements.

At this stage if you will qualify for the National Reserve if it opens next year it's better to wait until spring and see if it opens.

If it doesn't open and you would qualify in 2022 leasing for a year might be worth considering. .

Your off farm income will need to be under 40k in 2019 or 2020. Not sure if you need a green cert but young trained farmers are prioritised.

2020 or 2021 would reference years for off farm income for 2022 national reserve.

Earnshaw

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Entitlements have a face value of X (say €200). It's 1 entitlement per hectare so this is the value you claim on them.

To buy them you will pay a multiple of the face value.

Leasing them in for 1 year you will pay a percentage of the face value, the higher the value the bigger the percentage. I think it's around 66% for average value entitlements.

At this stage if you will qualify for the National Reserve if it opens next year it's better to wait until spring and see if it opens.

If it doesn't open and you would qualify in 2022 leasing for a year might be worth considering. .

Your off farm income will need to be under 40k in 2019 or 2020. Not sure if you need a green cert but young trained farmers are prioritised.

2020 or 2021 would reference years for off farm income for 2022 national reserve.

So when an earlier post said

Lowest value entitlements are 150 euro/HA now

is that 150/ha figure referring to the multiple of face value?

Does the 40k income relate to all household income or just the income of the farmer?

J.O. Farmer

Earnshaw wrote: »

So when an earlier post said is that 150/ha figure referring to the multiple of face value?

Does the 40k income relate to all household income or just the income of the farmer?

150/ha is the face value.

40k is the income of the farmer only unless it's a partnership I think. If you're married double check that your spouses income doesn't count.

For example a son starting out on his own still living at home his parents income doesn't count.

Earnshaw

If a farmer has the same amount of entitlements as land (i.e. 100 entitlements and 100HA) how do they go about stacking entitlements on some land (say 70HA) and leaving other land (30HA) 'naked'...?

morphy87

I thought my self for the young farmers scheme, if starting off with no entitlements you get the average payment per hectare and a 25% top up for 5 years, but if a young trained farmer went into this scheme what would happen at the end of the 5 years? If it was naked land to start with surly you would be entitled to claim something provided your salary was under 40000

wrangler

Earnshaw wrote: »

If a farmer has the same amount of entitlements as land (i.e. 100 entitlements and 100HA) how do they go about stacking entitlements on some land (say 70HA) and leaving other land (30HA) 'naked'...?

As far as I know you can't stack now, there might be an opportunity in the next reform, you just never know

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

As far as I know you can't stack now, there might be an opportunity in the next reform, you just never know

Stacking will be of very limited value from now on. Max unit value is now 750/HA you will not be allowed to stack above that. However with convergence expect that to hit 500/HA in the next reform. As another poster said expect greening element of BPS to be expanded. There is a push for those in derogation not to be allowed greening payment

Earnshaw

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Stacking will be of very limited value from now on. Max unit value is now 750/HA you will not be allowed to stack above that. However with convergence expect that to hit 500/HA in the next reform. As another poster said expect greening element of BPS to be expanded. There is a push for those in derogation not to be allowed greening payment

Will entitlements valued under 150/HA automatically be adjusted (to a higher amount) with convergence?

Bass Reeves

Earnshaw wrote: »

Will entitlements valued under 150/HA automatically be adjusted (to a higher amount) with convergence?

There should be no entitlements under 150/HA at present. They were all bought up over last 4 years. The 150 includes greening

Earnshaw

The entitlements I currently hold are under 150/HA - will these be automatically increased in value when convergence happens?

J.O. Farmer

morphy87 wrote: »

I thought my self for the young farmers scheme, if starting off with no entitlements you get the average payment per hectare and a 25% top up for 5 years, but if a young trained farmer went into this scheme what would happen at the end of the 5 years? If it was naked land to start with surly you would be entitled to claim something provided your salary was under 40000

YFS gives a top up of 25% of the national average on whatever entitlements the farmer has. The young trained farmer would need to claim entitlements from the national reserve or otherwise acquire entitlements.

The entitlements aren't linked to the land either but you need land to activate them on each year.

Bass Reeves

Earnshaw wrote: »

The entitlements I currently hold are under 150/HA - will these be automatically increased in value when convergence happens?

Yes as convergence happens entitlements will automatically increase in value. The next move is toward 200/HA. By 2030 approx all entitlements will be the same value. However they will reduce in value as money is redirected towards environmental schemes. The thinking at present is that those getting derogations will no longer be green by definition. This means they will have to act on greening like tillage farmers with buffer strip's etc.

Water John

When the thread title came up on my list again, the first thing I thought of, was a man looking for a woman with a good dowry. Wanted good land with high entitlements attached.

morphy87

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

YFS gives a top up of 25% of the national average on whatever entitlements the farmer has. The young trained farmer would need to claim entitlements from the national reserve or otherwise acquire entitlements.

The entitlements aren't linked to the land either but you need land to activate them on each year.

So if I were to lease say 40 acres I would have to apply to the national reserve and if you did this how much an acre do you reckon I should get going on previous years? So just say it was 100 an acre then I would get a 25 percent tip up which would be 125? Will there be a national reserve this spring do you think?

alps

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is a push for those in derogation not to be allowed greening payment

Push from where Bass? Europe, dept, farm orgs?

Water John

European Parliament certainly.