All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676911#Comment_117676911

Nothing silly about it except your answer. How does that benefit members of the governments of the world who have decided lockdowns are necessary?

How are so many governments involved and who is coordinating it?

Why have some governments not towed the line?

How come with so many people that would have to be involved in the conspiracy, has it evaded general public knowledge?

Why have restrictions been lifted if everyone is meant to be in lockdown?

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677005#Comment_117677005

There is no ''' conspiracy'''. If you want to talk to a QAnon follower, go to a QAnon forum.

It's simply about rich multinationals making money, and politicians profiting off of that. It's the exact same process as for example the Tobacco Lobby, the Firearms Lobby (NRA in the USA etc.), the Big Oil lobby, the big banks lobby (bailouts) etc. It's basically a form of legalized corruption.

And if you think we are not in lockdown you should compare the current situation to that before covid. Unvaccinated cannot do indoor drinking/dining, the nightclubs are still closed, no major events, mask mandates etc. etc.

Like most things in politicis, this is about 1. money 2. power/control.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676950#Comment_117676950

There is no 'conspiracy'. If you want to talk with a conspiracy theorist go to a QAnon forum.

It is simply a case of big pharma profiting off of a situation in which the entire global population will need their products, multiple times a year. It's the creation of an arbitrary need for 'booster' vaccines and the like.

My view on vaccines is this:

Elderly and vulnerable should be vaccinated. Yes that includes elderly and vulnerable in many african countries who can currently not get a vaccine because they won't release the patents or distribute enough to poor countries.

Healthcareworkers, people with public functions (politicians , police etc.) should be vaccinated.

Leave the choice to be vaccinated or not for all other people to decide for themselves.

robinph

So not a conspiracy then, excellent.

So what are you doing in a conspiracy thread making claims about a conspiracy theory that you don't subscribe to then?

If you want to discuss the activities of a company doing what they are meant to be doing then a business forum might be a better place. What we are trying to get to the bottom of here is the conspiracy theory about all restrictions being permanent because some shadowy organisation is pulling the strings of world governments without anyone noticing and for reasons that have yet to be outlined.

Business making money is not a conspiracy.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676911#Comment_117676911

This is appeal to motive

It's a global pandemic, many companies that make related products have seen revenues grow. For example mask-makers have gained a lot of revenue/profit, does that automatically make them nefarious or complicit in some vast conspiracy?

No.

You work in a company that makes laptops, laptops have been selling like hotcakes due to the amount of people working from home, are you part of some big conspiracy?

No.

Did any of these companies deliberately create Covid?

No.

It's a silly point.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677450#Comment_117677450

It's not a conspiracy, because it happens in plain sight.

A conspiracy is something the CIA does in high secrecy, or things that happen in highly secured military facilities like area 51. This covid control, however, is happening in plain sight for all of us to see, and the people are letting it happen without protest, and with impunity.

We already know that 'saving as many lives as possible' is not the goal of Pfizer and the likes. Their goal is: 'make as many people as possible dependent on yearly/6 monthly booster shots of a vaccine that many don't have a valid medical reason to take'. While ederly and vulnerable people do need the vaccines to reduce the risk of death and severe illness, this is not necessary for the majority of the young population. I as a 28 year old with relatively good health do not stand to gain anything from taking the vaccine. Yet we are seeing more and more compulsory vaccinations (for big tech and fed workers in the US for example).

I refuse to cooperate with a system that is creating artificial dependency on a vaccine that I do not need. That is why I will not be taking the vaccine. I am not interested in taking yearly or 6 monthly booster shots. I am not interested in standing in line for every new covid variant vaccine. That is my personal choice. It is very, very possible that this will have severe negative consequences for my personal life; for exapmle, what if my company bans the unvaccinated from the office yet at the same time forces us to get back into the office? Then that will eventually lead to me losing my job. I am prepared to accept that outcome.

What if the government blatantly makes vaccinations obligatory? Then I will leave Ireland. It may seem unlikely now, but will it be so unlikely 5 months down the line? I think not.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677680#Comment_117677680

Nice rant about why you don't want to take a vaccine.

But if this is in such clear view about the likes of Pfizer directing governments to enforce people taking their vaccine when not required then you'll be able to show us where this is happening and provide some evidence of it. Are Moderna, J&J, Astra Zeneca etc all in on this plan to force governments to require vaccinations?

Presumably you can show where there is even any government enforcing vaccinations for the general population as well? As far as I am aware most governments are actually just trying to encourage wider take up of vaccinations, and mostly failing.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677680#Comment_117677680

You don't have to take it, but you are doing so out of an irrational belief, and joining the legions of people who are also refusing to take sensible medical precautions borne out of nonsensical or faulty beliefs

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677680#Comment_117677680

So you don't believe there's a conspiracy, but you believe there's a global plot involving all governments and doctors to trick people into getting a vaccine that they don't need and is possibly dangerous (possibly deliberately dangerous.)

You're contradicting yourself there.

How about all the conspiracy mongers and anti-vaxx cranks who have been making a mint out of conspiracy theories around covid like the one you're spouting?

Is it ok for them to make a profit out of lying and spreading misinformation?

King Mob

Oh and looks like we're back around to the "vaccines are bad" part of the conspiracy theory merry-go-round.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677736#Comment_117677736

I already told you that . In the US they are already forcing federal government workers to take the vaccine. And in that same country, some big tech companies such as Google have already made vaccines mandatory for staff returning into the office. It then logically follows that unvaccinated staff (that is currently working from home) will eventually be fired. Taking away someone's livelihood without a good reason is obviously a form of forcing people to take the vaccine.

Google and Facebook to require Covid vaccination for workers at US offices | Financial Times (ft.com)

But yeah in this country people are used to mindlessly follow the Authorities. Look at where it brought Ireland; they can't even speak their own language anymore and their culture is heavily Anglicized. At least in my country, people stand up for themselves and we have defeated the invading Brits (and other powers) on multiple occasions. Hence you see a much higher vaccination rate here in Ireland than in the Netherlands. The choice whether you fight invading Brits or subject to their authority is similar to the choice of whether you accept a vaccine being forced upon you. I am not saying that it is always worse to choose for the vaccine, but we should not accept it being forced.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677899#Comment_117677899

So private companies setting out rules for what they want from their staff, for the safety of their other staff.

Not anything being directed by Pfizer then or by national government on their population. Even government employees needing to be vaccinated isn't any different, they are just using the same reasons as the private companies for their employees, not requiring anything of the whole population.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677899#Comment_117677899

Unvaccinated workers can walk into an office place and infect others. People can indirectly die from that. It's not a huge ask to take basic medical advice from professionals, but you've turned all of this into a bizarre personal rant against "authority".

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677942#Comment_117677942

So we disagree on that. I do think it's a huge ask to ask people to inject something into their bodies that they do not want.

But I already explained the cultural basis of this difference of opinion. Throughout Irish history of English subjugation, your people have been spoonfed the idea that you always should listen to the authorities and never should stand up for yourselves. Hence we see much smaller anti-covid protests here in Ireland than in many other countries, and those who do participate are often of Polish descent or from other countries originally. So I already know that I cannot 'convince' you of my standpoint. I am merely trying to explain it, so that you can LEARN form those who have a different opinion about this matter and, hopefully, GROW from that exposure to that different opinion in the long run.

Deub

“At least in my country, people stand up for themselves and we have defeated the invading Brits (and other powers) on multiple occasions. Hence you see a much higher vaccination rate here in Ireland than in the Netherlands.”

how you managed to make this connection, I will never know.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677984#Comment_117677984

Nothing to do with "culture".

If you don't want to get vaccinated, that's your choice. You will have a higher chance of contracting Covid, and if you do, it can be a more severe case. Right off the bat you've decided to roll the dice.

Secondly, you are more likely to transmit Covid to others. You are indirectly putting other people at risk; colleagues, friends, family.

Doctors, GPs, physicians, medical professionals would all advise to get the vaccine, but you've decided to ignore that because it has come through an authority figure and in your black/white personal world views "authorites" are cartoonishly corrupt and nefarious.

It's basic ignorance and selfishness.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677990#Comment_117677990

It is about the general mentality of a certain culture. Cultures have different mentalities when it comes to listening to the authorities, versus opposing the authorities if they disagree with them.

Of course, this is not something that applies to ALL members of a culture. But it is certainly something that you can see if you look at the bigger picture.

Standing up to invaders is therefore related to standing up to infringements upon personal rights, such as mandatory or semi-mandatory vaccinations. I would consider it semi-mandatory, if it becomes impossible or very difficult to make a living without a vaccine.

I am trying to explain my viewpoint to you so that you can see where I am coming from. I am not trying to convince you to take or not take the vaccine or anything like that. I hope that this can lead to better understanding between different groups of people with different opinions.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678030#Comment_117678030

It is not ignorance. I do know that I run a small risk of getting hospitalized or dying from covid. That is my choice. If I die from it, so be it.

I also realize that I am slightly more likely to infect others (vaccinated can still spread it, the rate is just lower). I realize that and try to take other measures, such as social distancing and face masks and the like, to prevent spread as best I can.

robinph

If it wasn't bizarre before, it certainly is now. Pfizer are directing Google to get their employees in the US vaccinated because Ireland speaks English and doesn't have enough Polish immigrants in order to object. :D

Or something like that. I'm sure more daft reasons will be incoming shortly.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678046#Comment_117678046

Covid is more dangerous to you than the vaccine. You have a higher chance of contracting and infecting others around you. From a pure risk perspective choosing not to vaccinate makes no sense either from a medical point of view nor a logical one. That's selfishness.

As to what's driving all of this? irrational personal views. That's ignorance.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678127#Comment_117678127

There also seems to be an element of folks enjoying the idea of being a "rebel" by not taking the vaccine. "They don't like being told what to do" etc etc.

But like with most conspiracy theorists, they won't actually do anything about their supposed beliefs.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678127#Comment_117678127

I'd rather die from covid than take the vaccine. What are you going to do about it? Call the gardaí? Should I die from covid (again, small chance at my age and health), and should you learn about it in any way, then you are free to gleefully spread the news here on boards. Because I stand behind my own decisions and the consequences of my own actions.

It is a very realistic scenario that I eventually lose my job over this. So be it. I can always move to another country that guarantees more personal freedoms than Ireland, if need be. I am a free human being with autonomy over what I do and do not do with my body.

It took Ireland until a couple years ago to grant that basic body autonomy to women (abortion rights). And clearly they are still not there yet when it comes to other aspects of autonomy and self-determination over your body.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678195#Comment_117678195

So you are willing to take a greater risk and increase the risk to others because...?

And how is this not selfish? Are people not allowed to point out that your reasons for not getting the vaccine seem a bit silly and selfish?

You are working very hard to pretend that you are being persecuted.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678210#Comment_117678210

You are allowed to say that my reasons are silly, but you can then also give an argument why you think it's silly.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678248#Comment_117678248

Because it doesn't seem to be based on anything coherent. Rather it seems to be based on internet conspiracy nonsense and vague rambling about "invaders".

Why take the option that puts you and other people at greater risk?

What have you actually done in response to your claimed beliefs? Or is it just empty talk?

Also, could you explain your view on the conspiray mongers who have made money out of the same misinformation you've been repeating. Do you believe that they are also up to something sinister since they also profit?

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678278#Comment_117678278

So the inalienable human right of self-determination over your body is not 'coherent' to you? Do you support abortion rights? Probably also not.

Why put myself at greater risk? Because I value freedom more than life. And I firmly believe that by following all other regulations I am not putting others at greater risk than a vaccinated person who goes to a festival with 10s of thousands of people.

What have I done in response to my believes? I have not gotten vaccinated. That is the only thing I have done so far.

View on conspiracy theorists: I fully agree with you that they are bad people.

Any more questions?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678195#Comment_117678195

I read your above post as to why you do not want to take the vaccine in relation to a notion that there's a conspiracy to make us all dependant on a yearly booster etc. I don't agree with it and think it's nonsense - but I can see your logic.

However, I cannot see your logic in the above comment about how you'd rather die from covid than take a vaccine. How does that make sense at all and how does dying benefit you?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678313#Comment_117678313

Yea. Taking a greater risk and putting others at risk just to flex your rights and no other reason isn't coherent. Doing so because you've swallowed false information from the internet about a vast global conspiracy is not coherent.

It's incoherent and selfish and more about you pretending to be a rebel than any actual reason.

Why do you follow other regulations when you are told to be authorities? Why do you not also rail against these measures by the same people you are calling "Invaders"? Many of your fellow conspiracy theorists have used your same arguments against things like masks and social distancing.

What's the difference?

What about other safety measures? Do you refuse to wear a seatbelt to stick it to the man?

And for all your proclimations about "standing up for your rights" you've essentially done nothing except put others are greater risk. You're taking the lazy option.

That's not really as heroic as you might think it is.

AirBiscuit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677899#Comment_117677899

"It then logically follows that unvaccinated staff (that is currently working from home) will eventually be fired."

It does? I would have thought that the requirement to have all staff on-premises would mean that a company with thousands of staff would need an office large enough to accommodate them all.

Less staff on site means a smaller office is a viable option for a larger staff; smaller offices would have smaller overheads, meaning more money for these companies whose ultimate goal is to make as much profit as they can.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678195#Comment_117678195

It is incredibly unlikely that you'll loose your job over a covid vaccination. Only possible scenario would be if you are working in a health care setting, and even then there would be exemptions.

For the rest of us there is just not going to be any requirement to have a covid jab for employment in Ireland, or the UK or most of the western world except for the US, as there is going to be sufficiently high rate of vaccination among the general population that the use of such extra motivations to get vaccinations rates higher just isn't going to be necessary. You may be told that you're an idiot by your colleagues, but that will be about it.

It's still not anything along the lines of "all restrictions are permanent" of course.