All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

Dohnjoe

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117642290#Comment_117642290

What "doom and gloom killer" numbers? what "basic rights" have been removed?

Over 4 million people have died in 15 months from a preventable infectious disease, national health services have come close to collapse. According to your personal opinion countries around the world should have done what exactly?

PintOfView

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117642290#Comment_117642290

Just to clarify the numbers a bit, because your calculations seem to be based on wrong assumptions.

20,000 were given the placebo, and 20,000 vaccinated. All went about their daily lives as before, and results looked at after 100 days.

Placebo group: 162 got symptomatic Covid (with 9 severe). An additional small number (maybe 50 +/-) probably got Covid with no symptoms. The rest of that group didn't get Covid at all.

Vaccine group: 8 got symptomatic Covid (with 1 severe). We would have expected about 162 or thereabouts to get symptomatic Covid, based on looking at the placebo group, but only 8 got it, and that's how they calculate the 95% effectiveness (ie. 154 were saved from getting symptomatic Covid).

Your calculations (eg. "0.04% showed symptoms, 0.005% had severe symptoms", etc), are assuming all 20,000 in each group got Covid, but that's not how the trial worked, it just selected 40,000 random people and sent them back to their normal lives after injecting them with vaccine or placebo. In the next 100 days only a small number in each group were exposed to Covid and caught it, not all 20,000.

Re the deaths, none of the deaths were said to be from Covid. I imagine that out of each 20,000 there were a good cohort of older people, and it wouldn't be too surprising that some of the participants might die during the 100 days. Here is what the report says about the deaths ...

Two BNT162b2 recipients died (one from arteriosclerosis, one from cardiac arrest), 
as did four placebo recipients (two from unknown causes, one from hemorrhagic stroke, and one from myocardial infarction).
No deaths were considered by the investigators to be related to the vaccine or placebo. 
No Covid-19–associated deaths were observed. 

Unicorn Milk Latte

"don't be a boiling frog"..

The 'boiling frog' narrative itself is, of course, an urban myth, and completely untrue. If you put a frog in cold water, and then heat it up slowly, the frog will jump out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

meep

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117642290#Comment_117642290

So a couple of things here.....

This trial took place when the original strain of covid was circulating. Since then, we have had the UK variant which is a lot more contagious, and that has now been largely supplanted with Delta, which is more transmissible again.

So the perception that the risk is lower than from car accidents is based on calculations that are out of date. It would be interesting to see equivalent numbers that are more current and include delta.

Further, we don't have a curtailment of rights and freedoms because of a slight risk of death.

The restrictions are all about reducing strain on the health system. We have seen ourselves here, and further afield, that the waves cause enough sickness to require hospitalizations at a level that threatens to, and sometimes does, overwhelm those systems.

This is the reason we social distance, lockdown, vaccinate and take as many precautions as we can as a society - to maintain our health services.

Remember, a heart surgery patient requires days in ICU, a covid patient can require weeks. This is the pressure we try to avert.

It's not about the personal, it's about the societal and systematic. This is what bugs me about the anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers and covid deniers, the protesters, the freedom sayers and the perpetually outraged - the sheer selfishness of their outlook is unfathomable.

PintOfView

So the perception that the risk is lower than from car accidents is based on calculations that are out of date. It would be interesting to see equivalent numbers that are more current and include delta.

And those calculations you referred to never gave the complete picture. The risk of dying from Covid was lower than dying from a car accident only below a certain age (34 yrs), but above that the risk of dying from Covid was higher, and increased dramatically with age. So 45-54 yr olds (unvaccinated) are 4 times more likely to die of Covid than a car accident. That increases to 25 times more likely for 65-74 yr olds, and 109 times more likely for 85+

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633289#Comment_117633289

It's rather curious. When England lifts restrictions (SAGE says they could be reintroduced in a few weeks: England may have to reimpose Covid rules in August, scientists warn | Coronavirus | The Guardian) that means Ireland has also lifted them.

brianhere continues to be right in what he wrote. I actually can't think of a single restriction that has been lifted in Ireland. A few places have reopened, but life continues to be heavily restricted.

Squeeonline

If we could vaccinate against car crashes, I'd be all for it.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661556#Comment_117661556

OK. So we're back to all restrictions being permanent again.

Gosh you conspiracy theorists really need to make up your mind about this.

In another month you guys will be telling us again that you believe only masks will be permanent and you never claimed all restrictions will be.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661556#Comment_117661556

I don't believe that you can't think of a single restriction that has been lifted in Ireland. You are lying as there is evidence everywhere contradicting what you say. What about life is heavily restricted? Provide the evidence to back up your ridiculous claim.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661609#Comment_117661609

Masks, vaccine passports, a degree of social distancing, self-isolation. I believe that those measures will all be permanent.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662287#Comment_117662287

None of those things are currently in place in the UK. Well other than people being told to keep away from people if they are ill, but that just makes sense.

Why do you think that Ireland, and Ireland alone will keep such restrictions when the rest of the world doesn't? What benefits are there for Ireland in doing something like that to their population and economy? Why would the population go along with that when the rest of the world returns to normal?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662287#Comment_117662287

Ok. So you've switched again. That was quick.

Why do you believe that these specific measures will be permanent? How do they specifically benefit the people who are pushing to make these permanent?

You've been asked this many times before but you always ignore the question. You Ignore the question because most likely you don't have a rational answer for it.

Please answer it now. If you ignore the question again, you are admitting that you can't answer it and you agree that the measures you claim will be permanent won't be permanent since you can't provide a rational reason for them.

It's ridiculous you are still repeating this crap after all the dodging and avoid and dishonesty.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662287#Comment_117662287

They won't be permanent because COVID won't be a problem in years to come. It'll take a number of years but people will become more resistant to COVID just as they have become resistant to the common cold/flu etc.

The Nal

Had 2 lovely pints in the local last night.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117666881#Comment_117666881

But how can that be possible? You've been working from home or furloughed since March 2020, can only leave the house for up to 1 hour of solo exercise per day, have to order your food shopping online, all other shops and gyms and entertainment venues must be shut, all schools are shut, you can't remove your mask in public so not sure how you could possibly drink a pint, you've not had a haircut in 18 months so must surely have been embarrassed by your barnet about leaving the house.

Can't possibly be true. ;)

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117666955#Comment_117666955

Im going on holiday (abroad) in a few weeks too. Lock me up!

I travelled back to Ireland recently and had some lovely pints in the local. before returning home.... Dublin airport was quite pleasant seeing it busy

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117662870#Comment_117662870

I am sure that some of these things will be permanent. We already see that despite the fact that the ICUs are no longer overflowing with Covid patients, we are still facing so many restrictions.

Permanent may be a big word, but I would be surprised if we are completely back to normal in 3 years from now at the least.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674253#Comment_117674253

Cases go up, ICU admissions go up. Cases go down, ICU admissions go down. That's generally how it works. The ICU numbers have increased in the last few weeks as the number of people with Covid has increased. The increasing number of people vaccinated should help cases, and ICU admissions decrease. The schools back in August/September will probably cause another rise as more people are mixing.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674253#Comment_117674253

What restrictions are your currently concerned about still being in existance?

Things that likely have changed permanently over the last year and a half is how much people use contactless payments rather than cash. This does cause problems for people in the accessibility to money and certain groups being able to pay for things, but that is not a restriction that has been brought in, it's just a change in the way that society has decided to conduct itself. Something will need to be looked at for how money is used for people without bank accounts for example, but that is a problem that was known about before covid and all that has happened is the uptake of contactless payment has been sped up as more people in a position to make use of it now understand it better.

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674322#Comment_117674322

Yup. And then it will go down slightly again. And then come christmas it will go up again. And then it will go down slightly again etc.

I don´t see this cycle ending for the next 3, 4 years. It is simply folly to think that 100% of the population will ever be vaccinated, and given the decreased effectivity of the vaccines due to new variants (which mainly come from the US, South America, poorer Asian countries and Africa etc. where vaccination rates are a lot lower than here) , even a 100% vaccination rate might not be enough to stop this cycle.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675293#Comment_117675293

Indeed, the virus and variants might persist, therefore measures may persist. However this thread concerns a vast conspiracy to make measures permanent for unspecified nefarious purposes, do you believe there is one? if so, what is it?

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675583#Comment_117675583

It is obviously a way to control the population into mindless control.

We haven´t had this cycle of lockdowns for many much more severe diseases in the past.

Fighting Tao

To what benefit? Who benefits from this “mindless control”, and why is the control needed? What is the end goal? Is it only the Irish government that is in on it? If not, how many millions of people worldwide are actually involved in all the nations that have used lockdowns?

please bear in mind that there is no lockdown now.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675841#Comment_117675841

Okay so, the Irish government, and opposition, your local TDs, all want to wear masks and keep restrictions going on forever, why exactly?

Keeping in mind how insane that sounds, try to explain coherently, with evidence.

Second question, which severe infectious diseases in the past?

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675901#Comment_117675901

Who profits off of it? The big pharmaceutical companies of course. What a silly question. Have you seen the earnings of Pfizer recently?

• Second-Quarter 2021 Revenues of $19.0 Billion, Reflecting 86% Operational Growth; Excluding BNT162b2(1), Revenues Grew 10% Operationally to $11.1 Billion

Pfizer Inc. - Financials - Quarterly Reports

machaseh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676056#Comment_117676056

This is obviously a global phenomenon, not restricted to Ireland.

And think about Polio, Measles, Smallpox, Spanish Flu. Did those have extensive lockdowns and semi compulsory vaccines? They are already implementing a vaccination requirement in US federal offices and the offices of big tech companies in the US. If you cannot work without a vaccine, it's semi compulsory obviously.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676911#Comment_117676911

Can you outline the conspiracy that Pfizer are involved in then please?

How have they managed to get multiple world governments to unnecessarily enforce the wearing of masks, and shutting of school etc?

If there is a conspiracy then explain it. If it is just a case of various companies in the pharmaceutical industry making profits during a global health crisis then that isn't a conspiracy.

Who is tricking the world and how are they doing it?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676928#Comment_117676928

Polio

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/the-deadly-polio-epidemic-and-why-it-matters-for-coronavirus-133976

For the next four decades, swimming pools and movie theaters closed during polio season for fear of this invisible enemy. Parents stopped sending their children to playgrounds or birthday parties for fear they would “catch polio.”

In the outbreak of 1916, health workers in New York City would physically remove children from their homes or playgrounds if they suspected they might be infected. Kids, who seemed to be targeted by the disease, were taken from their families and isolated in sanitariums.

Spanish Flu

Social distancing isn’t a new idea—it saved thousands of American lives during the last great pandemic. Here's how it worked.

Flu cases continued to mount until finally, on October 3, schools, churches, theaters, and public gathering spaces were shut down. Just two weeks after the first reported case, there were at least 20,000 more.

Shortly after health measures were put in place in Philadelphia, a case popped up in St. Louis. Two days later, the city shut down most public gatherings and quarantined victims in their homes. 

New York City, which reacted earliest to the crisis with mandatory quarantines and staggered business hours, experienced the lowest death rate on the Eastern seaboard.

In 1918, the studies found, the key to flattening the curve was social distancing. And that likely remains true a century later

Some tech companies in the U.S will fire you if they know you are a smoker.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676928#Comment_117676928

We've been previously told on this thread when it was asked how restrictions could be permanent as different restrictions were lifted in different countries that the thread was only meant to be about restrictions being permanent in Ireland. I think that was due to not being able to explain how some shadowy group was managing to direct global governments without any whistle-blower coming out with details, so the idea was to then attempt to keep the thread just about Ireland for simplicity of the conspiracy.

Now it seems that we're back to it being a global conspiracy again. So difficult to keep up with these conspiracies as they keep moving. Maybe that"open's why nobody is able to explain what the conspiracy is as it's such a secretivnspe organisation running things that even the people who know about these things because they have copened their eyes" and "done their own research", yet they still can't keep up with tconspiracy.