Fancy v plain

Farmer Dan

Query for the experts

Going to buy in weanlings over the next few weeks for the first time as i have stopped suckling.

But wondering what would be the difference between fancy v plain cattle
i.e charollais, llimousin v Hereford / aa (dairy x).

I know I would have bigger weights at factory with continentals but I know it will cost more to achieve that so what people’s views on the matter, which way is more profitable or would the margin be similar.

Appreciate any advice.

_Brian

I think on balance if tightly managed and providing the market doesn’t tank both have Similar prospects.

You will hear strong arguments on both sides as while some have a love of traditional breeds many have the same feelings around continental stock.

For us on marginal ground and longer winter periods we find traditional hex and aa do better here.

cuculainn

Farmer Dan wrote: »

Query for the experts

Going to buy in weanlings over the next few weeks for the first time as i have stopped suckling.

But wondering what would be the difference between fancy v plain cattle
i.e charollais, llimousin v Hereford / aa (dairy x).

I know I would have bigger weights at factory with continentals but I know it will cost more to achieve that so what people’s views on the matter, which way is more profitable or would the margin be similar.

Appreciate any advice.

Where are you planning on buying? i.e do you frequent the marts yourself or will you get a dealer to buy or will you buy privately/on donedeal.

Do you consider the TB risk (topical these days with the rating and all!! will you ask for the TB rating??)

We are planning the same as yourself but just need a few plain weanlings tor replace some older bullocks we hope to sell but finding it difficult in the current set up to get them. we might actually wait till they will go straight into the shed

P.S feel free not to answer any of the questions above if it doesnt suit you. I am really just thinking out loud!!

Lime Tree Farm

Does TB affect younger stock - or it is generally older stock and cows that go down with TB.

minerleague

Farmer Dan wrote: »

Query for the experts

Going to buy in weanlings over the next few weeks for the first time as i have stopped suckling.

But wondering what would be the difference between fancy v plain cattle
i.e charollais, llimousin v Hereford / aa (dairy x).

I know I would have bigger weights at factory with continentals but I know it will cost more to achieve that so what people’s views on the matter, which way is more profitable or would the margin be similar.

Appreciate any advice.

Dont see a lot of difference between different beef systems ( everyone would pile into any system that consistently proved more profitable ) To get value buying cattle I think you have to put in the time and attend as many marts as you can

Farmer Dan

cuculainn wrote: »

Where are you planning on buying? mart/ buy privately on donedeal.

Do you consider the TB risk (topical these days with the rating and all!! will you ask for the TB rating??) Dont know. Wouldnt be overly stocked so should be ok if i got locked up. I think if you consider it too much, you probably might not buy in at all. Hard to know....

SuperTortoise

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

Does TB affect younger stock - or it is generally older stock and cows that go down with TB.

Generally it's older stock as in 2+ years.

Lime Tree Farm

SuperTortoise wrote: »

Generally it's older stock as in 2+ years.

So really shouldn't affect male weanlings sales, could an issue for heifer weanlings.

Farmer Dan

The way i was thinking about it was If you had a budget of €20k.
If you could buy 25 continental weanlings say at €800 or
33 dairy cross at €600 approx. Both managed the same.
When they go to the factory, assuming beef price as it us atm, which group would leave the most profit...if any??

grange mac

Farmer Dan wrote: »

The way i was thinking about it was If you had a budget of €20k.
If you could buy 25 continental weanlings say at €800 or
33 dairy cross at €600 approx. Both managed the same.
When they go to the factory, assuming beef price as it us atm, which group would leave the most profit...if any??

I normally would buy in autumn but with current prices of weanlings can't buy them due to exporters demand. So actively looking at weanlings/bullocks over 350kg as they are not suitable for export hence different price. Just know your margin will have big bearing on prices you pay initially.

_Brian

Farmer Dan wrote: »

The way i was thinking about it was If you had a budget of €20k.
If you could buy 25 continental weanlings say at €800 or
33 dairy cross at €600 approx. Both managed the same.
When they go to the factory, assuming beef price as it us atm, which group would leave the most profit...if any??

If your going down their route you probably need to think more flexibility wise and work with what is value at the time or eleven a hybrid system taking in some of both types. With so much volatikity and vested interest manipulating things in the background both will take a beating from time to time.

I wouldn’t be thinking I’m only buying X from now on.

K.G.

When a neighbour retired from dairy he told his agent to buy a few of every breed of cattle.they landed and all got the same treatment on the farm and he sold them in the mart after 12 months or so maybe longer.when he sat down after selling them peole were telling him he got great money for his continental s but he said it was the fr s made the most money for him.now i cant say who ate the most or maybe it was in the buying price the money was made while the continental s sold well the fr s had added the most volume since he bought them.

Farmer Dan

_Brian wrote: »

If your going down their route you probably need to think more flexibility wise and work with what is value at the time or eleven a hybrid system taking in some of both types. With so much volatikity and vested interest manipulating things in the background both will take a beating from time to time.

I wouldn’t be thinking I’m only buying X from now on.

Thanks for that, good advice. Spread your bet.

Farmer Dan

Farmer Dan wrote: »

The way i was thinking about it was If you had a budget of €20k.
If you could buy 25 continental weanlings say at €800 or
33 dairy cross at €600 approx. Both managed the same.
When they go to the factory, assuming beef price as it us atm, which group would leave the most profit...if any??

Those prices seem very low when looking at the mad prices this year.

A lot of people looking at buying lambs etc because cattle prices are so high.

Factor in the high prices and a potential no deal brexit and the cattle could be worth half what they cost at the mart come January

Farmer Dan

Deleted User wrote: »

Those prices seem very low when looking at the mad prices this year.

Thanks. I was only using them prices as a comparission.

TooOldBoots

Not a pile of profit if any in either system. Try and keep it a grass based system as much as possible. Stay away from those "hot" Weanlings that are pumped with meal.
In the mart don't do battle with those silver haired buyers, price doesn't matter to them. I've seen a few of them so daft that they would almost be bidding against themselves
I think a calf to beef based system would be more profitable, but each to there own

lalababa

K.G. wrote: »

When a neighbour retired from dairy he told his agent to buy a few of every breed of cattle.they landed and all got the same treatment on the farm and he sold them in the mart after 12 months or so maybe longer.when he sat down after selling them peole were telling him he got great money for his continental s but he said it was the fr s made the most money for him.now i cant say who ate the most or maybe it was in the buying price the money was made while the continental s sold well the fr s had added the most volume since he bought them.

That's a good one. Buy a cross section...no harm in it. But depends on where and what you sell. Plain (at the right price) would undoubtedly
(IMO...and contrary to alot of traditional finishers )
perform better going to the factory or even in mart as forward stores.
Every other way of selling...yearlings/stores would probably be a toss up or favor fancy.

Anto_Meath

I think one thing you need to know is which type of cattle do better on your land, it takes good land to feed good Continental cattle to beef without a lot of meal, where as good AA cattle will fatten on marginal land with very little hand feeding.
Second thing is where are you going to be selling - Factory or Mart. Plain cattle can be difficult to move in a mart if trade is poor.
No matter what, if you can at all buy the cattle yourself, I often see lads buying cattle for other lads and it can be easy knowing they have their hand in some else pocket, because as the saying goes the day you buy is the day you sell.
I tend to buy a mix of bullocks, if I see something that I think is value I will try them. A Bord Bia lad said to me one day your price range appears to be between €80 - €1,000 (I rear about 20 bucket calves every spring and have 20 suckler cows that calve to LM) keep all cattle until they are near 30 months or fit then sell in the factory or mart depending on where I think I ll do best (usually its a mix of both). So when I am in the mart if I see something that matches any of the various batches of cattle I have I would be interested in them at a price.
What makes the most money its had to say. If I can get nice O grade FR cattle that will tick all the QA boxes in the factory then there can be a nice twist in them as they will carry good weights and the initial investment is lower.

Albert Johnson

Anto_Meath wrote: »

I think one thing you need to know is which type of cattle do better on your land, it takes good land to feed good Continental cattle to beef without a lot of meal, where as good AA cattle will fatten on marginal land with very little hand feeding.
Second thing is where are you going to be selling - Factory or Mart. Plain cattle can be difficult to move in a mart if trade is poor.
No matter what, if you can at all buy the cattle yourself, I often see lads buying cattle for other lads and it can be easy knowing they have their hand in some else pocket, because as the saying goes the day you buy is the day you sell.
I tend to buy a mix of bullocks, if I see something that I think is value I will try them. A Bord Bia lad said to me one day your price range appears to be between €80 - €1,000 (I rear about 20 bucket calves every spring and have 20 suckler cows that calve to LM) keep all cattle until they are near 30 months or fit then sell in the factory or mart depending on where I think I ll do best (usually its a mix of both). So when I am in the mart if I see something that matches any of the various batches of cattle I have I would be interested in them at a price.
What makes the most money its had to say. If I can get nice O grade FR cattle that will tick all the QA boxes in the factory then there can be a nice twist in them as they will carry good weights and the initial investment is lower.

Some lads have an infatuation with colours or quality and will buy what appeals to them at any price. It's hard to find any great value when your tied to certain stock which are usually in demand. I'd buy a few cattle for different men locally and it didn't matter if you brought good cattle for nothing if they didn't suit there taste's. It doesn't matter how efficiently you manage stock if there too dear from the start imo your on a hiding to nothing. Yes good management is important but there's a lot of skill in buying them right no matter what colour they are.

Anto_Meath

Anto_Meath wrote: »

I think one thing you need to know is which type of cattle do better on your land, it takes good land to feed good Continental cattle to beef without a lot of meal, where as good AA cattle will fatten on marginal land with very little hand feeding.
Second thing is where are you going to be selling - Factory or Mart. Plain cattle can be difficult to move in a mart if trade is poor.
No matter what, if you can at all buy the cattle yourself, I often see lads buying cattle for other lads and it can be easy knowing they have their hand in some else pocket, because as the saying goes the day you buy is the day you sell.
I tend to buy a mix of bullocks, if I see something that I think is value I will try them. A Bord Bia lad said to me one day your price range appears to be between €80 - €1,000 (I rear about 20 bucket calves every spring and have 20 suckler cows that calve to LM) keep all cattle until they are near 30 months or fit then sell in the factory or mart depending on where I think I ll do best (usually its a mix of both). So when I am in the mart if I see something that matches any of the various batches of cattle I have I would be interested in them at a price.
What makes the most money its had to say. If I can get nice O grade FR cattle that will tick all the QA boxes in the factory then there can be a nice twist in them as they will carry good weights and the initial investment is lower.

FR bullocks eat a lot more silage and/or grass than aa/he/continentals in my experience.

Anto_Meath

Deleted User wrote: »

FR bullocks eat a lot more silage and/or grass than aa/he/continentals in my experience.

Yes Fr cattle can be hungry and they don't like concrete either but if your farm can grow grass they will convert it cheaply to beef and they will be fit at 360 / 380 kgs DW which is what the factories want. Often continentals will be well over 400 kgs DW before they are fit while AA & HE if they cross 350 kgs DW they become over fat, its a balancing act and why there is no right or wrong answer to OP opening question.
There is noting nicer than looking at a nice field of good quality cattle be they AA, LM or CH but just because they look well doesn't mean they will pay their way.

Cavanjack

Anto_Meath wrote: »

I think one thing you need to know is which type of cattle do better on your land, it takes good land to feed good Continental cattle to beef without a lot of meal, where as good AA cattle will fatten on marginal land with very little hand feeding.
Second thing is where are you going to be selling - Factory or Mart. Plain cattle can be difficult to move in a mart if trade is poor.
No matter what, if you can at all buy the cattle yourself, I often see lads buying cattle for other lads and it can be easy knowing they have their hand in some else pocket, because as the saying goes the day you buy is the day you sell.
I tend to buy a mix of bullocks, if I see something that I think is value I will try them. A Bord Bia lad said to me one day your price range appears to be between €80 - €1,000 (I rear about 20 bucket calves every spring and have 20 suckler cows that calve to LM) keep all cattle until they are near 30 months or fit then sell in the factory or mart depending on where I think I ll do best (usually its a mix of both). So when I am in the mart if I see something that matches any of the various batches of cattle I have I would be interested in them at a price.
What makes the most money its had to say. If I can get nice O grade FR cattle that will tick all the QA boxes in the factory then there can be a nice twist in them as they will carry good weights and the initial investment is lower.

Agree with what you say. Only point I’d make is that I find with good quality cattle you should get a superior thrive. Killed good ch bullocks last week that done round 1/2 kg over the winter on silage alone and 1.3-1.4 kg a day on grass since April. They ate a bit of meal all right for the last 6 weeks or so but only about 4kg a day.
Had some serious quality bullocks (u+) last year that done 1.5kg per day from April until the start of November but were on meal longer.
With a poor friesian 1kg would be tops on grass I’d say so they have to be bought right.

Grueller

Cavanjack wrote: »

Agree with what you say. Only point I’d make is that I find with good quality cattle you should get a superior thrive. Killed good ch bullocks last week that done round 1/2 kg over the winter on silage alone and 1.3-1.4 kg a day on grass since April. They ate a bit of meal all right for the last 6 weeks or so but only about 4kg a day.
Had some serious quality bullocks (u+) last year that done 1.5kg per day from April until the start of November but were on meal longer.
With a poor friesian 1kg would be tops on grass I’d say so they have to be bought right.

Just on this, when I was starting to farm in my own right FCE (feed conversion efficiency) was the metric that all the experts lived and died by. I haven't heard it mentioned in 15 years now.

Anto_Meath

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Yes Fr cattle can be hungry and they don't like concrete either but if your farm can grow grass they will convert it cheaply to beef and they will be fit at 360 / 380 kgs DW which is what the factories want. Often continentals will be well over 400 kgs DW before they are fit while AA & HE if they cross 350 kgs DW they become over fat, its a balancing act and why there is no right or wrong answer to OP opening question.
There is noting nicer than looking at a nice field of good quality cattle be they AA, LM or CH but just because they look well doesn't mean they will pay their way.

Some good points there. A lot of people finish fr bullocks over 30 months to get near that kind of weight

Another factor is that it is a lot easier manage fr bullocks than some wild breeds

20silkcut

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Some good points there. A lot of people finish fr bullocks over 30 months to get near that kind of weight

Another factor is that it is a lot easier manage fr bullocks than some wild breeds

A fella said to me one time that continental cattle may be wilder but they have more respect for the electric fence than friesians or whiteheads.
Can’t say myself haven’t had much continentals.
I do know if I’m slow enough about moving the cattle they will invariably move themselves.

patsy_mccabe

All down to experience really. Not easy spot value around the ring when everyone else is doing the same. Friesians do eat more and cont types need meal to finish. I see what AA and HE weanlings are making and it's hard to see guys sticking at it. A few around here were bucket rearing calves and they all stopped. If everyone does that, calves get cheap, more exports and scarce cattle in 2 years. A vicious cycle.

Anto_Meath

Ah bucket reared stock are easy to manage, I find when I mix them with my own suckler weanlings they keep the lot quite & easy handled. But you can buy some right wild cattle in the marts that's why I tend to stay away from groups, there is usually a mad fecker hid in it...

Albert Johnson

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Ah bucket reared stock are easy to manage, I find when I mix them with my own suckler weanlings they keep the lot quite & easy handled. But you can buy some right wild cattle in the marts that's why I tend to stay away from groups, there is usually a mad fecker hid in it...

There's usually a disappointing lad of some description on most group's, the idea being that he's half hidden within the rest of them. It's hard to buy value when your looking for it and especially if your limited as to how many marts you can attend. I'd be in a mart 4-5 day's a week for most of the spring and autumn so I'd get a better chance to pick up some value. It's a different story if your away working every day although the online bidding has opened up new opportunities for men who can't attend in person.

jntsnk

Holding off until the brexit crash. Would rather have empty sheds . Don’t fancy paying these mad prices at the moment.

Cavanjack

jntsnk wrote: »

Holding off until the brexit crash. Would rather have empty sheds . Don’t fancy paying these mad prices at the moment.

You could be right. Beef farming being what it is cattle will probably still be dear.

jntsnk

Cavanjack wrote: »

You could be right. Beef farming being what it is cattle will probably still be dear.

Hopefully I’m wrong but at least I won’t loose sleep over it. Wouldn’t like to committ to expensive animals at the moment. You can always buy later