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British to Renege of NI Protocol?

  • 06-09-2020 11:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ Mac1978


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-coveney-warning-over-reported-uk-legislation-plan-1.4348153

    I think they're right to call for calm.

    But at the same time, if the British government do this to the Irish nation, how do we respond?

    I would argue that this would be the most serious breach of trust between the two nations in more than a century. While we must be careful not to do anything that might result in violence, surely we couldn't take this lying down? Are they trying to provoke us? Do they want a return to the bad old days? Are the croppies expected to lie down again?

    If they do this, and the Irish government doesn't respond, extremists might fill the vacuum. That's why a response is essential. Should the British ambassador be expelled? British goods boycotted?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,659 ✭✭✭ Quantum Erasure


    We'll do ****in' nothin....


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,775 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    We don't have to respond.

    The rest of the World responds to the UK repudiation of international treaties by treating them like the pariah they would be.

    The Confederation of British Industry and the City of London financial houses respond that such an eventuality would end the latter as a force and lose millions of FDI and FDI dependent jobs to Britain. Every car maker, IT company, Pharma company, aerospace and defence multinational, basically anyone who builds in the UK and exports.

    The EU responds by closing the market that absorbs 45% of everything the UK makes and does. Basically half. What economy could sustain that hit without a breakdown in social order, the least of which consequences would be independent Scotland and a united Ireland not long after.

    Boris is a great man for playing cards with hands that he does not hold, this is just another clumsy gambit, a transparent childlike 'bait and switch' attempt.

    We don't need to respond at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭ forgottenhills


    Mac1978 wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-coveney-warning-over-reported-uk-legislation-plan-1.4348153

    I think they're right to call for calm.

    But at the same time, if the British government do this to the Irish nation, how do we respond?

    I would argue that this would be the most serious breach of trust between the two nations in more than a century. While we must be careful not to do anything that might result in violence, surely we couldn't take this lying down? Are they trying to provoke us? Do they want a return to the bad old days? Are the croppies expected to lie down again?

    If they do this, and the Irish government doesn't respond, extremists might fill the vacuum. That's why a response is essential. Should the British ambassador be expelled? British goods boycotted?

    This is a report about the UK possibly breaking an agreement in relation to trade related rules. Which would be a bad thing if it happened but this could merely be a kite flying exercise during trade negotiations.

    But your response is completely over the top, invoking croppies and ambassador expulsions and other nonsense. The correct response to trade disagreements involves trade measures not talk of war. Hopefully more balanced people are making decisions on our behalf.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ Mac1978


    This is a report about the UK possibly breaking an agreement in relation to trade related rules. Which would be a bad thing if it happened but this could merely be a kite flying exercise during trade negotiations.

    But your response is completely over the top, invoking croppies and ambassador expulsions and other nonsense. The correct response to trade disagreements involves trade measures not talk of war. Hopefully more balanced people are making decisions on our behalf.

    I don't think I mentioned war. In fact, I think I specifically said that we should try to avoid violence.

    Whether or not these are 'trade disagreements' depends on your perspective. They might also be considered diplomatic disagreements, particularly if they involve the British repudiating an international agreement signed with a union of 27 other nations. Their repudiation of that treaty would necessitate the imposition of a border on this island, after the British had assured all of us that there would be no such border.

    So, while you may think my response is OTT, I wonder if the majority of Irish people would agree with you? Irish people north of the border are entitled to fair play. The British government must honour any and all agreements made to ensure such fair play. And if/when they do not honour those agreements (to be fair, something they haven't done with an independent Ireland before), surely we must respond? I suspect that any other nation would.


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭ forgottenhills


    Mac1978 wrote: »
    I don't think I mentioned war. In fact, I think I specifically said that we should try to avoid violence.

    Whether or not these are 'trade disagreements' depends on your perspective. They might also be considered diplomatic disagreements, particularly if they involve the British repudiating an international agreement signed with a union of 27 other nations. Their repudiation of that treaty would necessitate the imposition of a border on this island, after the British had assured all of us that there would be no such border.

    So, while you may think my response is OTT, I wonder if the majority of Irish people would agree with you? Irish people north of the border are entitled to fair play. The British government must honour any and all agreements made to ensure such fair play. And if/when they do not honour those agreements (to be fair, something they haven't done with an independent Ireland before), surely we must respond? I suspect that any other nation would.

    Yes the language of your first post reeked of that of republican head bangers and I am glad to see that you have now dialled it down.

    In relation to borders we must also remember that our own government have not been completely honest with the people. In the event of a hard Brexit it has always been the case that the Irish government will simply have to introduce border checks in order to protect the Single Market and they have been incredibly evasive on this point to date.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ Mac1978


    Yes the language of your first post reeked of that of republican head bangers and I am glad to see that you have now dialled it down.

    In relation to borders we must also remember that our own government have not been completely honest with the people. In the event of a hard Brexit it has always been the case that the Irish government will simply have to introduce border checks in order to protect the Single Market and they have been incredibly evasive on this point to date.

    I don't believe I've dialled anything down. And, f you look back through my comparatively few posts on this forum, you'll see that I am about as far from a 'republican head banger' as one could be.

    The Irish government have been evasive on the border question. That's true. But the British government have not been in the least bit evasive. They have stated again and again, that there will be no border in Ireland. And they have signed up to a protocol that gave legal footing to that gaurantee.

    I believe that, if they do decide to renege on that, it absolutely would be the greatest breach of trust that indepedent Ireland has ever endured at the hands of another nation. And that isn't OTT rhetoric - it's fact. Can you think of any other occasion in our history when another nation has torn up a treaty it signed with us? That kind of insult demands appropriate action.

    I accept that the nature of that action is debatable. And I think we both agree that it should not be violent. But for me, a slap in face like that, is not adequately answered by trade restrictions determined by the EU. As an independent nation, that has just had another independent nation repudiate an agreement that we made in good faith, we should respond with very strong action.


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭ forgottenhills


    Mac1978 wrote: »
    I don't believe I've dialled anything down. And, f you look back through my comparatively few posts on this forum, you'll see that I am about as far from a 'republican head banger' as one could be.

    The Irish government have been evasive on the border question. That's true. But the British government have not been in the least bit evasive. They have stated again and again, that there will be no border in Ireland. And they have signed up to a protocol that gave legal footing to that gaurantee.

    I believe that, if they do decide to renege on that, it absolutely would be the greatest breach of trust that indepedent Ireland has ever endured at the hands of another nation. And that isn't OTT rhetoric - it's fact. Can you think of any other occasion in our history when another nation has torn up a treaty it signed with us? That kind of insult demands appropriate action.

    I accept that the nature of that action is debatable. And I think we both agree that it should not be violent. But for me, a slap in face like that, is not adequately answered by trade restrictions determined by the EU. As an independent nation, that has just had another independent nation repudiate an agreement that we made in good faith, we should respond with very strong action.

    You have a remarkably black and white view of our relations with the UK when in reality the situation requires many shades of grey. We need cool heads in negotiations not people who regard negotiating ploys as insults and slaps in the face.

    If you studied history and even the present you would understand that the greatest real danger to our country came from Germany in World War II and from the USSR more recently. On both occasions we were protected by the Allies and NATO of which the UK was, and is, an important member. Eaten bread is soon forgotten though and most people totally overlook the big picture on areas like this. Even right up to the present day when Russia sends warplanes on exploratory flights around the Irish west coast who do you think scrambles planes to intercept? Yes those bad people in the UK you are so keen to get into a diplomatic row with.

    Even from a trading point of view talking about boycotting UK products is very dangerous territory as we are still heavily reliant on exports to the UK in areas like agriculture and food processing where many jobs would be lost if we escalate to a trade war with tariffs and boycotts.

    It has also emerged that this proposed tinkering with the NI protocol part of the WA has been raised by the UK government with the Irish government since the early summer so its all just a part of their manoeuvering and negotiating from a weak position in these talks. Lets just keep calm, keep our eye on our overall balance of interests and let the trade talks continue without raising the temperature with talk of insults.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭ Phishnet


    English breaking treaties, and reneging on past promises, no surprise there!

    History repeating itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,242 ✭✭✭✭ TheValeyard


    Phishnet wrote: »
    English breaking treaties, and reneging on past promises, no surprise there!

    History repeating itself.

    It's almost as if the Brits are at it again!

    http://arethebritsatitagain.com/

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Tinytemper


    Mac1978 wrote: »
    I would argue that this would be the most serious breach of trust between the two nations in more than a century.

    They were shooting Irish people dead on our streets only a few decades ago. They were setting off bombs, murdering innocent Irish people and partook in a sectarian campaign of violence and terror for 3 decades.

    I think they may have breached our trust during this time.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ Cork_Guest


    Jesus, this is all negotiating postering off the back of big mouth Barnier saying the waters around the U.K. might be theirs but the fish in it is another story! He gobbed off and they gobbed back.

    But either way, what exactly would we do about it anyway, other than have to ask other countries for help in doing anything anyway. Sure there was a thread there the other week about possibly buying some fighter jets and everyone saying we could ask the US and EU to pay some of it for us, or the US could protect our airspace because they use Shannon! Embarrassing!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ Cork_Guest


    Tinytemper wrote: »
    They were shooting Irish people dead on our streets only a few decades ago. They were setting off bombs, murdering innocent Irish people and partook in a sectarian campaign of violence and terror for 3 decades.

    I think they may have breached our trust during this time.

    Erm.....Twas only them was it? Jesus!


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Tinytemper


    Cork_Guest wrote: »
    Erm.....Twas only them was it? Jesus!

    Are you trying to excuse the murder of innocents? Jesus!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,619 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    We'll do ****in' nothin....

    Our govt will do nothing.

    The Irish paramilitaries are another matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭ Jinglejangle69


    Our govt will do nothing.

    The Irish paramilitaries are another matter.

    Haha what are the Irish paramilitaries gonna do and who are they!! ??


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭ Edgware


    Calm down, calm down


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Our govt will do nothing.

    The Irish paramilitaries are another matter.

    Why would they?

    How does this affect Ireland?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ Cork_Guest


    Tinytemper wrote: »
    Are you trying to excuse the murder of innocents? Jesus!

    Are you ignoring the fact that we did exactly the same thing too! Wow! Or are you one of those who think we’re saints and the Brits are evil?! Ffs, the Church has killed more innocents than the RA and Brits put together! Wake up!


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Tinytemper


    Cork_Guest wrote: »
    Are you ignoring the fact that we did exactly the same thing too! Wow! Or are you one of those who think we’re saints and the Brits are evil?! Ffs, the Church has killed more innocents than the RA and Brits put together! Wake up!

    So you are trying to excuse the murders committed by British forces.

    No amount of whataboutery will remove the fact that the British government breached the trust between Ireland and Britain far more recently than the 100 years claimed by the OP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,734 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Tinytemper wrote: »
    They were shooting Irish people dead on our streets only a few decades ago. They were setting off bombs, murdering innocent Irish people and partook in a sectarian campaign of violence and terror for 3 decades.

    I think they may have breached our trust during this time.

    A pretty accurate description of the activities of the PIRA.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Tinytemper


    blanch152 wrote: »
    A pretty accurate description of the activities of the PIRA.

    And yet, it's a completely accurate description of the terror campaign inflicted on this island by the British armed forces.

    It just puts things like the breaking of agreements by the British government into perspective. They still protect murderers of innocent Irish people and go as far as giving them medals.

    Some Irish people have very short memories.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,307 ✭✭✭✭ nacho libre


    Boris is playing with bad cards and his bluff has now been called by the Americans. Boris is out of his depth, a lot of Conservatives are beginning to realise it, they want Jeremy back at prime ministers question time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ Cork_Guest


    Boris is playing with bad cards and his bluff has now been called by the Americans. Boris is out of his depth, a lot of Conservatives are beginning to realise it, they want Jeremy back at prime ministers question time.

    How so? Biden hasn’t a clue, he’s only interested in having a running mate that called his a racist and a sexist so he can get the BLM votes. Do you really think he gives a damn about us!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ Cork_Guest


    Tinytemper wrote: »
    And yet, it's a completely accurate description of the terror campaign inflicted on this island by the British armed forces.

    It just puts things like the breaking of agreements by the British government into perspective. They still protect murderers of innocent Irish people and go as far as giving them medals.

    Some Irish people have very short memories.

    And some Irish people have too long a memory. It’s time to move on and work towards a better tomorrow, not keep harping on about the Brits this and the Brits that as any reason to stoke up hate.
    We were no saints and while the Allies were off fighting a war we stayed ‘neutral’ in, we were in cahoots with the Nazis trying to get them in behind them in exchange for weapons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,829 ✭✭✭✭ endacl


    Albion has been perfidious since the 1600s. Why would anybody imagine that might change...?

    'L'Angleterre, ah, la perfide Angleterre, que le rempart de ses mers rendoit inaccessible aux Romains, la foi du Sauveur y est abordée.'


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭ feargale


    I saw a copy of the Irish Daily Mail today, giving some coverage to the Irish point of view. I would love to know what the UK edition is saying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Tinytemper


    Cork_Guest wrote: »
    And some Irish people have too long a memory. It’s time to move on and work towards a better tomorrow, not keep harping on about the Brits this and the Brits that as any reason to stoke up hate.
    We were no saints and while the Allies were off fighting a war we stayed ‘neutral’ in, we were in cahoots with the Nazis trying to get them in behind them in exchange for weapons.

    Did the British armed forces murder innocent Irish people in the 70's and 80's and 90's?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ Cork_Guest


    Tinytemper wrote: »
    Did the British armed forces murder innocent Irish people in the 70's and 80's and 90's?

    What’s the matter, do I have to admit one truth before you’ll admit the other. I’m not playing your silly little boy games. If you’re happy living in this made up bubble that we’re some oppressed people who have done nothing wrong in our entire history then that’s your delusion. One eyed people doing what one eyed people do, only see half a picture!


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Tinytemper


    Cork_Guest wrote: »
    What’s the matter, do I have to admit one truth before you’ll admit the other. I’m not playing your silly little boy games. If you’re happy living in this made up bubble that we’re some oppressed people who have done nothing wrong in our entire history then that’s your delusion. One eyed people doing what one eyed people do, only see half a picture!

    :pac: I knew you wouldn't answer my very simple question. You've been outed! You're either unionist or a Brit.

    Unmasked. :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,581 ✭✭✭ 0ph0rce0


    BRITS OUT!!!!


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