Right of way

ladyfarmer

Here goes! I own a road, but 4 houses have a right of way over said road. I am in the process of giving a written right of ways to 3 of these houses. Anyway, this evening I went to check on my land to find a load of branches cut on one side of the road and thrown over the ditch on opposite side, also a tree had been cut, and left fall into my field. The field is at least 6ft lower than road, opposite side is higher. Even the post for gate, a sally, which was used for tying gate had been cut down to about 4 inches above rope used for tying. I did not check on land last week due to me being away.
Road was in no way too narrow for a car as I drive a jeep and I've never scratched my jeep.
I hope I'm making sense? Is there anyone that has any experience of this?

MrMusician18

ladyfarmer wrote: »

Here goes! I own a road, but 4 houses have a right of way over said road. I am in the process of giving a written right of ways to 3 of these houses. Anyway, this evening I went to check on my land to find a load of branches cut on one side of the road and thrown over the ditch on opposite side, also a tree had been cut, and left fall into my field. The field is at least 6ft lower than road, opposite side is higher. Even the post for gate, a sally, which was used for tying gate had been cut down to about 4 inches above rope used for tying. I did not check on land last week due to me being away.
Road was in no way too narrow for a car as I drive a jeep and I've never scratched my jeep.
I hope I'm making sense? Is there anyone that has any experience of this?

What exactly is the problem? Doors it really matter if the hedge was trimmed?

mickdw

MrMusician18 wrote: »

What exactly is the problem? Doors it really matter if the hedge was trimmed?

People given an inch will take a mile.
Its ****ty behaviour to cut trees belonging to someone else and even worse to throw the cuttings onto land.
Id be pretty pissed.
Of course its possible we are not getting the full storey.

bobbyy gee

https://www.propertymapsireland.com/right-of-way

ladyfarmer

mickdw wrote: »

People given an inch will take a mile.
Its ****ty behaviour to cut trees belonging to someone else and even worse to throw the cuttings onto land.
Id be pretty pissed.
Of course its possible we are not getting the full storey.

That is full story. I gave all the details, it's a stone ditch with various trees growing along it, mainly holly and sally, with the odd oak in from ditch. It's not what I'd call a hedge?
Only info I forgot to mention is the following. Nobody lives in any of the houses on a permanent basis but the three I'm giving a written right of way for are for sale. I've no problem whatsoever giving the written right of way but I'm well p...ed off that these branches and even a tree were cut without even asking my permission. I live in same townland but at other end of it. It's not a tarred road, just has two stripes of concrete? I'm probably just over reacting, but I posted for advice, not comments about I not giving the full story!

ittakestwo

Well you cant cut somebody's tree down. That is your property.

So unless specified in the deed. The ROW will be presumed to have the capacity it had at the date of the deed. So if you granted your neighbours a ROW at the time the road had a passable width of 6ft. Then it will be the capacity of the ROW had 6ft. So the grantee( your neighbours) cant come along and cut your hedges so a 9ft wide vehicle can fit on and justify this on that they have a ROW over the road. If you also had gates at the time of the deed then they cant remove it on the basis its impeding thier ROW. They also cant develop a ROW. So if it had just two concrete strips for vehicles at the time of the deed then they cant come along and resurface the full width to tarmac etc.


Better of not bringing in solicitors at this stage and just informing the culprit that you dont want your road changed and not to cut down your trees.

An Ri rua

Someone leasing /letting land from you can 'possibly' cut a hedge that actually includes Sally , ash, whitethorn, blackthorn but not oak.
Someone with no such rights clearly cannot.

I had a neighbour who abused his rights as a conacre tenant and cut ditches to the base. Specifically not permitted to do so. But looking after his BIL Bollicky Bill with his upgraded stove.
As the saying goes, don't f*CK with a f*cker. I love trees and wildlife. I went down 2 nights in a row and took away all his hard chainsawing (of our trees on land going back 5 generations) and left a few glaring bits of evidence dragged and dropped towards the house of another Bollicky Bill. Job done.
Oh, and we upped his rent by 20% and kept it there since.
The world is full of Bollicky Bills. You've given ROW, decently, and now they think THEY own it.

Mark their cards.

893bet

Any chance they had fallen or started to fall in the storm and then were chainsawed?

Seems more likely?

JeffKenna

893bet wrote: »

Any chance they had fallen or started to fall in the storm and then were chainsawed?

Seems more likely?

I agree, it would seem a particularly aggressive thing to cut a tree and leave it fall into your land breaking fencing etc..

ladyfarmer

JeffKenna wrote: »

I agree, it would seem a particularly aggressive thing to cut a tree and leave it fall into your land breaking fencing etc..

No way had it anything to do with the storm, it's an extremely sheltered place. Tree fell into field but didn't damage ditch as it was just inside the ditch, branches were cut off other trees and must have been lifted over opposite ditch. The biggest mystery is the gate post? It's cut down to a few inches above rope.
I do know 3 out of the 4 houses are either for sale or going up for sale, so all I can think of is that it has something to do with that?
I'm going to call to all the houses today, and see if anyone is staying in any of them.

ganmo

Ask for your written letters to be returned?
Also call the gardai to report the criminal damage.

These houses are for sale...they dont want you as a good neighbour so dont be one to them

Buford T. Justice XIX

ladyfarmer wrote: »

Here goes! I own a road, but 4 houses have a right of way over said road. I am in the process of giving a written right of ways to 3 of these houses. Anyway, this evening I went to check on my land to find a load of branches cut on one side of the road and thrown over the ditch on opposite side, also a tree had been cut, and left fall into my field. The field is at least 6ft lower than road, opposite side is higher. Even the post for gate, a sally, which was used for tying gate had been cut down to about 4 inches above rope used for tying. I did not check on land last week due to me being away.
Road was in no way too narrow for a car as I drive a jeep and I've never scratched my jeep.
I hope I'm making sense? Is there anyone that has any experience of this?

Tbh, I'd be withholding any written consent for a right of way until the person who cut the tree came and apologised and supplied a replacement tree for the one cut down and similar for the trees he cut branches off.

Leaving aside the regulations against cutting trees and hedging at this time of year, I think you need to put your foot down to stop similar happening in the future. I would be contacting my solicitor and making sure your rights to not have your property damaged are fully protected and restored before I would give even an inch of a right of way signed over.

ladyfarmer

ganmo wrote: »

Ask for your written letters to be returned?
Also call the gardai to report the criminal damage.

These houses are for sale...they dont want you as a good neighbour so dont be one to them

Mystery solved! It actually would be laughable only I'm so cross! I know it might seem minor to some people, but I am born and reared in this place and my family are here for generations, and farmed the place for well over 200 years and have not made much of an impact in the area!
Anyway, it turns out that one house has been bought by a man that has lived locally for about 15 years. He works from home, IT? Last night was his first night sleeping in the house! Some branches were obstructing his broadband and he asked a friend to cut them down? This was done on Friday morning. It seems it never dawned on him to go to any of the houses near him to ask who owned the field? Anyone of them would have given him my number. The friend seems to have got carried away with his new toy, they had to buy a chainsaw to do the cutting!
He now has a very annoyed neighbour, who happens to be a farmer, who uses this road pretty regularly to move cattle!
Thank you all so much for your advice! Much appreciated!

NcdJd

ladyfarmer wrote: »

Mystery solved! It actually would be laughable only I'm so cross! I know it might seem minor to some people, but I am born and reared in this place and my family are here for generations, and farmed the place for well over 200 years and have not made much of an impact in the area!
Anyway, it turns out that one house has been bought by a man that has lived locally for about 15 years. He works from home, IT? Last night was his first night sleeping in the house! Some branches were obstructing his broadband and he asked a friend to cut them down? This was done on Friday morning. It seems it never dawned on him to go to any of the houses near him to ask who owned the field? Anyone of them would have given him my number. The friend seems to have got carried away with his new toy, they had to buy a chainsaw to do the cutting!
He now has a very annoyed neighbour, who happens to be a farmer, who uses this road pretty regularly to move cattle!
Thank you all so much for your advice! Much appreciated!

Thats mad. I wouldn't like to let that lad log onto my computer. I'm sure the trees had nothing to do with his broadband connection other than if he had a line of sight problem but he'd need to be using microwave which I wouldn't think he would be. Madness.

Donald Trump

ladyfarmer wrote: »

Mystery solved! It actually would be laughable only I'm so cross! I know it might seem minor to some people, but I am born and reared in this place and my family are here for generations, and farmed the place for well over 200 years and have not made much of an impact in the area!
Anyway, it turns out that one house has been bought by a man that has lived locally for about 15 years. He works from home, IT? Last night was his first night sleeping in the house! Some branches were obstructing his broadband and he asked a friend to cut them down? This was done on Friday morning. It seems it never dawned on him to go to any of the houses near him to ask who owned the field? Anyone of them would have given him my number. The friend seems to have got carried away with his new toy, they had to buy a chainsaw to do the cutting!
He now has a very annoyed neighbour, who happens to be a farmer, who uses this road pretty regularly to move cattle!
Thank you all so much for your advice! Much appreciated!

Sounds like a dodgy excuse. A case of thinking it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. A few branches don't obstruct broadband...





You could technically get in trouble yourself for those trees having been cut down

ladyfarmer

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Tbh, I'd be withholding any written consent for a right of way until the person who cut the tree came and apologised and supplied a replacement tree for the one cut down and similar for the trees he cut branches off.

Leaving aside the regulations against cutting trees and hedging at this time of year, I think you need to put your foot down to stop similar happening in the future. I would be contacting my solicitor and making sure your rights to not have your property damaged are fully protected and restored before I would give even an inch of a right of way signed over.

Yes I agree! I did post a few minutes ago but I might not have did it properly. I'm contacting my solicitor in the morning! Thank God I was only in the process of doing written right of ways and that I had nothing signed!

ladyfarmer

Donald Trump wrote: »

Sounds like a dodgy excuse. A case of thinking it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. A few branches don't obstruct broadband...





You could technically get in trouble yourself for those trees having been cut down

It's well I know I could get into trouble as I live in an area of conservation, plus I draw farm grants! Thank God they didn't cut any of the oak trees, only branches!

ittakestwo

ittakestwo wrote: »

Well you cant cut somebody's tree down. That is your property.

So unless specified in the deed. The ROW will be presumed to have the capacity it had at the date of the deed. So if you granted your neighbours a ROW at the time the road had a passable width of 6ft. Then it will be the capacity of the ROW had 6ft. So the grantee( your neighbours) cant come along and cut your hedges so a 9ft wide vehicle can fit on and justify this on that they have a ROW over the road. If you also had gates at the time of the deed then they cant remove it on the basis its impeding thier ROW. They also cant develop a ROW. So if it had just two concrete strips for vehicles at the time of the deed then they cant come along and resurface the full width to tarmac etc.


Better of not bringing in solicitors at this stage and just informing the culprit that you dont want your road changed and not to cut down your trees.

An she include those stipulations in the written row?

ganmo

I'd call a few tree nurseries, get quotes of a replacement (mature) tree, in writing.
Call into your neighbour with the price and watch his face drop itll be in the thousands

ladyfarmer

ganmo wrote: »

Ask for your written letters to be returned?
Also call the gardai to report the criminal damage.

These houses are for sale...they dont want you as a good neighbour so dont be one to them

Well they got their wish!

ladyfarmer

ganmo wrote: »

I'd call a few tree nurseries, get quotes of a replacement (mature) tree, in writing.
Call into your neighbour with the price and watch his face drop itll be in the thousands

I never thought of that! Thank you!

ladyfarmer

ladyfarmer wrote: »

Mystery solved! It actually would be laughable only I'm so cross! I know it might seem minor to some people, but I am born and reared in this place and my family are here for generations, and farmed the place for well over 200 years and have not made much of an impact in the area!
Anyway, it turns out that one house has been bought by a man that has lived locally for about 15 years. He works from home, IT? Last night was his first night sleeping in the house! Some branches were obstructing his broadband and he asked a friend to cut them down? This was done on Friday morning. It seems it never dawned on him to go to any of the houses near him to ask who owned the field? Anyone of them would have given him my number. The friend seems to have got carried away with his new toy, they had to buy a chainsaw to do the cutting!
He now has a very annoyed neighbour, who happens to be a farmer, who uses this road pretty regularly to move cattle!
Thank you all so much for your advice! Much appreciated!

I hope he's replacing the trees

ladyfarmer

SouthWesterly wrote: »

An she include those stipulations in the written row?

I haven't actually signed off on written right of way yet, thank God! It has been going back and forth with months, and then with lock down, everything stopped.

ladyfarmer

NcdJd wrote: »

Thats mad. I wouldn't like to let that lad log onto my computer. I'm sure the trees had nothing to do with his broadband connection other than if he had a line of sight problem but he'd need to be using microwave which I wouldn't think he would be. Madness.

I think it was just to make the area coming up to his gate more 'pretty'? Maybe more open, there would be very little daylight on this section of road. It's all oak trees, really old plus holly, sally and elder.

ladyfarmer

ladyfarmer wrote: »

I think it was just to make the area coming up to his gate more 'pretty'? Maybe more open, there would be very little daylight on this section of road. It's all oak trees, really old plus holly, sally and elder.

If he bought the house, he bought it as it was with trees in situ. Make him replace them.

893bet

Can you post an image of the damage?

I struggle to think that a couple of lads that actually had to buy a chainsaw would be capable of knocking down anything huge.

Mystery is solved so get it resolved is the next thing. Work with the neighbour. Not against him though would be my advice. And def get it written it it he right of way that pruning of the passageway and entry into the fields is not permitted etc.

kerryjack

What's this written right of way about, how long are houses in that road. Is there another way in, it seems a bit mad to me, I think you are making trouble for yourself it could end up 4 against 1, could make a lot of trouble for you down the line.

893bet

893bet wrote: »

Can you post an image of the damage?

I struggle to think that a couple of lads that actually had to buy a chainsaw would be capable of knocking down anything huge.

Mystery is solved so get it resolved is the next thing. Work with the neighbour. Not against him though would be my advice. And def get it written it it he right of way that pruning of the passageway and entry into the fields is not permitted etc.

The neighbour has already worked against them so it should be all about looking after yourself from here on. You don’t need to be submissive to neighbours to get on with life.

Donald Trump

kerryjack wrote: »

What's this written right of way about, how long are houses in that road. Is there another way in, it seems a bit mad to me, I think you are making trouble for yourself it could end up 4 against 1, could make a lot of trouble for you down the line.

There are some rules whereby a right of way is supposed to be registered by 31st Dec this year. Perhaps that is why they want the letters. The question then is whether their is an otherwise established right of way that they could try to fight for.



Simply put - if the houses are not there long enough and there is nothing in writing then the lane owner holds all the power. Once they grant that right of way in writing though then they lose that potential Trump card

kerryjack

No way would they have got planning in the last 20 years without a road and if houses are there longer, well than they have established a right of way .

Base price

kerryjack wrote: »

No way would they have got planning in the last 20 years without a road and if houses are there longer, well than they have established a right of way .

I was wondering how planning permission was granted if there was no right of way.

MrMusician18

Donald Trump wrote: »

Sounds like a dodgy excuse. A case of thinking it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. A few branches don't obstruct broadband...





You could technically get in trouble yourself for those trees having been cut down

In full leaf they do. Wireless internet providers need clear unobstructed line of sight to their mast. I've had to trim back trees where they incroached LoS and the difference in connection quality was night and day.

The idea that you could get in trouble for cutting down a few branches is ridiculous. The ESB and Eir wouldn't be able to operate in this country if that was the case.

Sure, he shouldn't have gone ahead and trimmed them back but it's it were my trees the way I'd approach it is how has this injured me. Would you have denied the person to make the clearing if you'd been asked in advance? If the boundary is still stock proof, fences undamaged and the only real issue is a few branches in the hedge then all I'd be really asking them is to take the branches away if they were in my way, and to ask in future. I wouldn't be going making enemies out of him or scaring him with nursery bills.

You might not need the neighbor now and you might not foresee a reason in future to need him, but say, for example, your animals break into his lawn and make ****e of it. Would you really want this incident of how you were unreasonable to colour his judgement?

the_pen_turner

MrMusician18 wrote: »

In full leaf they do. Wireless internet providers need clear unobstructed line of sight to their mast. I've had to trim back trees where they incroached LoS and the difference in connection quality was night and day.

The idea that you could get in trouble for cutting down a few branches is ridiculous. The ESB and Eir wouldn't be able to operate in this country if that was the case.

Sure, he shouldn't have gone ahead and trimmed them back but it's it were my trees the way I'd approach it is how has this injured me. Would you have denied the person to make the clearing if you'd been asked in advance? If the boundary is still stock proof, fences undamaged and the only real issue is a few branches in the hedge then all I'd be really asking them is to take the branches away if they were in my way, and to ask in future. I wouldn't be going making enemies out of him or scaring him with nursery bills.

You might not need the neighbor now and you might not foresee a reason in future to need him, but say, for example, your animals break into his lawn and make ****e of it. Would you really want this incident of how you were unreasonable to colour his judgement?

while agree with you that its only a few bushes and no real loss to the op . its the principle and total disrespect that the new neighbour has shown for the op that is the issue. im sure the op would have helped out the neighbour if they were asked

K.G.

Base price wrote: »

I was wondering how planning permission was granted if there was no right of way.

Right of way or ownership of the site for.that.matter is not an issue for the planners.access to the road is only considered from a road safety point of view. Banks are usually the people that look for R O W to be sorted

Tileman

K.G. wrote: »

Right of way or ownership of the site for.that.matter is not an issue for the planners.access to the road is only considered from a road safety point of view. Banks are usually the people that look for R O W to be sorted

I had to show on my planning application a copy of the written row.
Agree banks in particular would not let the mortgage be drawn down without all of that completely sorted.

Sacrolyte

I’d advise you to try not to fall out with your neighbours. You can however let them know in no uncertain terms that the road is yours and that any users will be treated in a fair way. You need to be clever and stamp your authority in a nice way.
I would certainly touch base with your solicitor and also perhaps an auctioneer to get a value on the difference between a property with and without a right of way.

GNWoodd

Base price wrote: »

I was wondering how planning permission was granted if there was no right of way.

How did ownership of the house change without the ROW becoming an issue ?
Why was the OP not consulted at the time of the sale ?

ittakestwo

Tileman wrote: »

I had to show on my planning application a copy of the written row.
Agree banks in particular would not let the mortgage be drawn down without all of that completely sorted.

All you have to do is get a letter from your solicitor saying there is a ROW and give it the planning department.

If you say to your solicitor I been using the road for 20+ years they will write you a letter saying there is a ROW. Does not mean there is a ROW as you could have lied.

Bottom line is just because you get a planning permission
grant for something does not mean you have the legal right to do what was granted.

mickdw

ittakestwo wrote: »

All you have to do is get a letter from your solicitor saying there is a ROW and give it the planning department.

If you say to your solicitor I been using the road for 20+ years they will write you a letter saying there is a ROW. Does not mean there is a ROW as you could have lied.

Bottom line is just because you get a planning permission
grant for something does not mean you have the legal right to do what was granted.

Yep planning people dont need to verify such details as you still need the legal right to do something even if planning in place. If you get planning having told lies about site access, all you have is an expensive bit of paper.

maestroamado

ladyfarmer wrote: »

Here goes! I own a road, but 4 houses have a right of way over said road. I am in the process of giving a written right of ways to 3 of these houses. Anyway, this evening I went to check on my land to find a load of branches cut on one side of the road and thrown over the ditch on opposite side, also a tree had been cut, and left fall into my field. The field is at least 6ft lower than road, opposite side is higher. Even the post for gate, a sally, which was used for tying gate had been cut down to about 4 inches above rope used for tying. I did not check on land last week due to me being away.
Road was in no way too narrow for a car as I drive a jeep and I've never scratched my jeep.
I hope I'm making sense? Is there anyone that has any experience of this?

I am thinking you are not giving the written right of way may be part of the problem?
Do not sign anything until this is resolved, ie make it their problem.
I expect they all have established rights to pass and you have only signed rights to the people who asked.
The law is changing on this now but the old rights are there if you sign or not.
Its a couple of years ago since i read about this that all rights need be recorded but if are used on regular basis need not be.
you may be the victim but you may also be pare of the cause... SORRY..

fatherted1969

He needs to hitch up his car trailer and move and dispose what was cut. Having blocked broadband connection due to bushes obstructing signal gives no one the authority to dump clippings on someone else's property

Donald Trump

MrMusician18 wrote: »

In full leaf they do. Wireless internet providers need clear unobstructed line of sight to their mast. I've had to trim back trees where they incroached LoS and the difference in connection quality was night and day.

The idea that you could get in trouble for cutting down a few branches is ridiculous. The ESB and Eir wouldn't be able to operate in this country if that was the case.

Sure, he shouldn't have gone ahead and trimmed them back but it's it were my trees the way I'd approach it is how has this injured me. Would you have denied the person to make the clearing if you'd been asked in advance? If the boundary is still stock proof, fences undamaged and the only real issue is a few branches in the hedge then all I'd be really asking them is to take the branches away if they were in my way, and to ask in future. I wouldn't be going making enemies out of him or scaring him with nursery bills.

You might not need the neighbor now and you might not foresee a reason in future to need him, but say, for example, your animals break into his lawn and make ****e of it. Would you really want this incident of how you were unreasonable to colour his judgement?

No offense, but that seems a bit naive to be fair.


The story is that the person bought the house. Had his buddy over on Friday to cut branches, and also a few trees, due to "broadband issues". Then moved into the house on Saturday and spent his first night there.



What is more likely is that he just didn't like the trees there and decided that, after buying the house and spending his money, he was going to remove them regardless of who owned them.

maestroamado

fatherted1969 wrote: »

He needs to hitch up his car trailer and move and dispose what was cut. Having blocked broadband connection due to bushes obstructing signal gives no one the authority to dump clippings on someone else's property

I agree but though i am in agreement with the OP it is strange they have agreed with 3 of the houses and not with one house.


I am confident we will be told.
Bushes have little effect on mobile broadband as its airbourne.now a broadleaf forest be different.
AFAIK the rule with clippings is we can clip what is growing into our property from another persons property.
The cuttings need to be left on the property of where the bush/tree is planted.
Even though i agree with you i expect these people know this.
I think the OP needs to start thinking that all 4 property have same rights...

maestroamado

maestroamado wrote: »

I agree but though i am in agreement with the OP it is strange they have agreed with 3 of the houses and not with one house.


I am confident we will be told.
Bushes have little effect on mobile broadband as its airbourne.now a broadleaf forest be different.
AFAIK the rule with clippings is we can clip what is growing into our property from another persons property.
The cuttings need to be left on the property of where the bush/tree is planted.
Even though i agree with you i expect these people know this.
I think the OP needs to start thinking that all 4 property have same rights...

That’s some leap.

maestroamado

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

That’s some leap.

What does that mean?

maestroamado

maestroamado wrote: »

What does that mean?

Whatever you’re insinuating with your last sentence.

kerryjack

It's clear they have a right of way sighned or not, so the issue is with bushes been cut no judge or guard is going to entertain that case, silly argument over a Bush, now they have been people killed over a hedge in the past so be careful out there guys people are getting very narkey out there with lock down and wouldn't take much to get them going so a hand shake is better than a closed fist right now.

maestroamado

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Whatever you’re insinuating with your last sentence.

You tell me the sentance as the last sentance i wrote before your reply as i don not know what you asking.
I think it was.... what does that mean?

maestroamado

kerryjack wrote: »

It's clear they have a right of way sighned or not, so the issue is with bushes been cut no judge or guard is going to entertain that case, silly argument over a Bush, now they have been people killed over a hedge in the past so be careful out there guys people are getting very narkey out there with lock down and wouldn't take much to get them going so a hand shake is better than a closed fist right now.

I agree but the person said in OP post was signing off on 3 and they said there 4 properties i think?

chooseusername

maestroamado wrote: »

I agree but though i am in agreement with the OP it is strange they have agreed with 3 of the houses and not with one house.


I am confident we will be told.
Blah blah
blah..
I think the OP needs to start thinking that all 4 property have same rights...

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

That’s some leap.

maestroamado wrote: »

What does that mean?

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Whatever you’re insinuating with your last sentence.

maestroamado wrote: »

You tell me the sentance as the last sentance i wrote before your reply as i don not know what you asking.
I think it was.... what does that mean?

Your last sentence was not " what does that mean"
It was this assumption; "I think the OP needs to start thinking that all 4 property have same rights..."

maestroamado

Here goes! I own a road, but 4 houses have a right of way over said road. I am in the process of giving a written right of ways to 3 of these houses...

This is what was written in OP post, you can decide what you think.

Your right that is some leap...