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Opinion on billionaires.
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Deleted User wrote: »Sounds too much like equality of outcome.
I went to AIT which, by any measure, is not a wonderful college. Got my diploma from there, came back later to finish my degree. Paid, for the most part, by the State, although there were some fees. Later as a mature student, I received welfare support to help me further study, again in AIT. I got my MBA in Oz, which I paid for myself, and a further Bachelor, again in OZ, which I paid for myself.
Education is mostly free in this country. Some people want the prestige of a "better" institution, and they pay for it.. but for the vast majority of people out there in Ireland, they can get a decent level of education without investing in it, as they do in other countries. Barring the requirements on the LC points (which wasn't much), anyone could have done the course I did originally.
Equal opportunities abound. There were a wide range of students in my course 22 years ago, from all walks of life, including two Travellers. So.. nah.. equal Opportunities do exist. It's just that some people want to go to Trinity, and so, there are extra conditions to be met.
I've known self-made millionaires, and most of them started at the bottom. The difference is that most people don't have the courage to commit themselves to an idea, and turn it into a profitable business. I've been involved in two startups both of which were reasonably successful, although there were hard times. I find that few people want to commit themselves to the dedicated lifestyle that's generally required to transform a startup into being a success.
Equal opportunity is there. The issue is choice. Most people simply choose not to live that way.... unless it's handed to them tied together with a nice silver bow.
only that data and research shows, it doesnt, and is possibly reducing as we speak, i have a similarish educational experience to yourself, we re the lucky ones, many are simply just not that lucky, this is far more complex than just poor choices0 -
Free medical care is disappearing, slowly but surely. My parents in their late 70’s early 80’s both lost their medical cards last year or year before. Both are ex state employees, paid tax all their lives. My father has a long term heart issue as well as worsening arthritis. My mother has one or two complaints including arthritis herself which although manageable need medication and physiotherapy to keep on top of.. Both meds and physio are privately paid for by her.
I am not a doctor, I cannot help your folks, I wish them well. They lost their cards because they can afford to, it is that simple. Please choose a side and vote accordingly, you and your parents are very lucky to live in a democracy where you have options.Yet, you can have people who land on our own shores to improve their own quality of life and economic wellbeing and get accommodation, cash, legal advice, medical treatment and a host of benefits having never contributed a red cent to the running and upkeep of the country...
You are massively off topic, if you want to have a foreigner crank go and start one somewhere else. I love foreigners and they need the most support. It is not all about greedy millionaires, even though we need them too.0 -
OK. So Ricky Rich owns a hotel worth 10 million. Employs 50 staff. After he pays them and all his overheads is left with 50k for himself, on which he pays taxes like everyone else. If he makes a profit, his company also pays tax on that separate from his 50k at 12.5%. Money he could use to hire more workers, or tide him over in leaner times, like now with COVID.
SF gets into power, decides to "tax the rich" and lands him with a tax bill of 5.5 million (55% of his wealth, like PAYE workers). He sells the hotel to pay the tax. 50 staff are on the dole.
Ironically they are totally opposed to the exact same taxes when talking about property tax or water charges.
This is the way the "tax the rich" brigade think.0 -
I am not a doctor, I cannot help your folks, I wish them well. They lost their cards because they can afford to, it is that simple. Please choose a side and vote accordingly, you and your parents are very lucky to live in a democracy where you have options.
You are massively off topic, if you want to have a foreigner crank go and start one somewhere else. I love foreigners and they need the most support. It is not all about greedy millionaires, even though we need them too.
how do you know this?
what if 'both sides' are wrong?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »OK. So Ricky Rick owns a hotel worth 10 million. Employs 50 staff. After he pays them and all his overheads is left with 50k for himself, on which he pays taxes like everyone else. If he makes a profit, his company also pays tax on that separate from his 50k at 12.5%. Money he could use to hire more workers, or tide him over in leaner times, like now with COVID.
SF gets into power, decides to "tax the rich" and lands him with a tax bill of 5.5 million (55% of his wealth, like PAYE workers). He sells the hotel to pay the tax. 50 staff are on the dole.
This is the way the "tax the rich" brigade think.
its not how i think, if sf ever get into government, which i suspect may never occur, they ll more than likely have to cuddle up to one of the usuals, if that occurs, they wont have much power, i.e. dont worry about them, if you re not a fan0 -
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Wanderer78 wrote: »so the data and research proving that those born into wealthier families, have far better opportunities in life, and those that are born into relative poverty, do not, including in this country, must be wrong then! you re opportunities in life can regularly come down to your choice of parents and date of birth, just sometimes, so chose wisely!
Sure, they have better opportunities in life.. Money opens many doors. But that's not to say that someone else, who wasn't born in the situation, couldn't create an equally successful life for themselves. There are always going to be inequalities due to backgrounds, such as what your parents achieved and what they're prepared to provide you for your future.but sometimes you cant, and sometimes some can struggle at the earlier stages in our educational system, and fail to meet the criteria to gain access to our third level systems, some of these individuals, are 'lucky' to gain employment at minimum wage!
My first degree year. I failed 7 out of 11 exams. Did the repeats, and passed 6. I failed 3 of the exams I passed the first time around. So I changed my major and college, since Computer Science obviously wasn't for me. Moved to Finance, and every single year I failed my accounting exams. Did well in the other exams, but accounting? Meh. Finally passed them after I left college for a while, and worked. I left college and joined the workforce with a diploma, not a degree. Got a crappy first job. Got a worse second job. Got a really good managerial job after that, and then, got into a startup as a manager.
We evolve. We learn. We recognize that we have problems, and that we must work around them. Or we give up. I've known a lot of people who simply gave up, accepting the life that they were presented with. Bugger that. Since then, I've worked in all manner of professions, and obtained much better qualifications... because I didn't give up.
You seem to want everyone to have equal opportunities, even though, many people simply choose not to push themselves. And yes, I know people who failed their LC, worked crappy jobs, went back to pass their LC, and went on to find much better opportunities later.0 -
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If Ricky Rich's hotel only comes out with 50k before tax, then it's not worth €10m.Deleted User wrote: »OK. So Ricky Rich owns a hotel worth 10 million. Employs 50 staff. After he pays them and all his overheads is left with 50k for himself, on which he pays taxes like everyone else. If he makes a profit, his company also pays tax on that separate from his 50k at 12.5%. Money he could use to hire more workers, or tide him over in leaner times, like now with COVID.
SF gets into power, decides to "tax the rich" and lands him with a tax bill of 5.5 million (55% of his wealth, like PAYE workers). He sells the hotel to pay the tax. 50 staff are on the dole.
We can all invent whatever scenarios we want to make our point. Doesn't make us right.0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »no we dont, a friend of mine just spent 50k getting one of his kids through 3rd level, and thats just 3rd level, god knows how much he spent through previous levels, then of course theres all the taxes he, his wife and kids have paid!
As did I, because I make a decent living. Actually I spent a lot less, as my kid was taught that money doesn't grow on trees and helped pay for college herself by working low paid part time jobs.
Some of my kids friends got free fees and all sorts of grants to go to college - as I did myself back in the day - because their parents are poor. This is the land of opportunity.Wanderer78 wrote: »yes, we generally have better opportunities than developing countries, but we still dont all have equal opportunities amongst ourselves in this country
We have a great and fair system here. If anyone gets screwed it's the middle and higher income people. In the UK and US those children of unemployed or poor families would be expected to take out large student loans.0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »only that data and research shows, it doesnt, and is possibly reducing as we speak, i have a similarish educational experience to yourself, we re the lucky ones, many are simply just not that lucky, this is far more complex than just poor choices
They have equal opportunities to study... Access to secondary and third level education which is not restricted due to economic or social backgrounds.
Choice plays a major role in what happens to people. Personal responsibility for our choices... That is important. Which is why inequalities exist. People make the wrong choices, or they simply choose not to compete.
Can you provide me with links to this research? I'll take a look.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »OK. So Ricky Rich owns a hotel worth 10 million. Employs 50 staff. After he pays them and all his overheads is left with 50k for himself, on which he pays taxes like everyone else. If he makes a profit, his company also pays tax on that separate from his 50k at 12.5%. Money he could use to hire more workers, or tide him over in leaner times, like now with COVID.
SF gets into power, decides to "tax the rich" and lands him with a tax bill of 5.5 million (55% of his wealth, like PAYE workers). He sells the hotel to pay the tax. 50 staff are on the dole.
Ironically they are totally opposed to the exact same taxes when talking about property tax or water charges.
This is the way the "tax the rich" brigade think.
You didn't include accelerated capital allowances , 0/10.0 -
If Ricky Rich's hotel only comes out with 50k before tax, then it's not worth €10m.
We can all invent whatever scenarios we want to make our point. Doesn't make us right.
It's worth €10m to someone. Maybe Ricky Rich is a crap owner? Maybe he hasn't the cashflow to modernise to attract the right clientele? Etc etc0 -
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Wanderer78 wrote: »staff are a critical component of the wealth created, without them, little or no wealth is created
not in this thread, they are literally nothing.0 -
Sounds like you havent actually been reading the posts on here. The fact is most billionaires do more bad for humanity than good. Yes they employ a lot of taxpayers but they also put other companies with taxpayers out of business
I would highly dispute that "fact". How could that even be a fact? Who defines what's good for humanity?
I've read through the posts thanks. So you aren't supposed to grow a business if you are muscling in on a competitors patch? Business isn't like that unfortunately, like nature, it's red in tooth and claw.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »This is assuming that this fictitious new government change the laws to exclude such "loopholes"
Maybe, but they cannot backtrack on available tax legislation, I wouldn't go there hypothetically either. Keep it as real as possible.
If we are unlucky enough to let the lefties into power I have no doubt they will make a shambles of everything. They always do.0 -
Ash.J.Williams wrote: »not in this thread, they are literally nothing.
There is nothing stopping employees leaving and starting their own business and earning millions and billions. I did it, the first part at least. Still waiting for the millions and billions.0 -
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Wanderer78 wrote: »its interesting that somebody such as warren would say that his secretary pays more tax than him, is kinna stupid!!
Please stop, Warren Buffett’s secretary does not pay more tax him. 10,000 secretaries probably dont pay as much tax as he does. Also who cares what he says, likely just lip service.
As seen as you like to claim people who don’t work pay tax we should be including all the mountains of tax warren buffet pays on consumption taxes also which would of course significantly increase his tax bill.
One of the biggest cons ever in this country in increasing tax rates as you earn more, massively unfair, massively stupid.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »In a "socialist utopia" military dictatorship anything is possible. Look at Venezuela.
I wouldn't panic. The lefties would not know where to start.
If they ever get in there will be some showboating for the masses, look out for shoulder barging the banks ( why not ) and hefty tax charges on the super rich. The clowns will think this is a good idea, they already do in fact.
In reality as soon as they hit 35% in the polls most of the really smart money will be out of here. There lies the biggest irony, all these big shots they plan on taxing will be gonzo.0 -
Ash.J.Williams wrote: »not in this thread, they are literally nothing.
It depends on what kind of employees we're talking about. We live, for the most part, in a skill based economy. Better skills and you have greater opportunities for employment, and in turn, salary. Those with the experience and better skills make the most money... but they're still employees, which means there's always going to be a cap on what they make.
Those who leave employment to start their own businesses, have no such cap, except based on the success of their venture.
Employees are important for the operation of any business, except where the skills of the employees are so low, that they're easily replaced. People, in the western world, have the choice to obtain better skills (whether through third level, or by themselves over the internet). That many people don't choose to improve their skills, and remain on the bottom, is on them. It's not on their employers.0 -
This relates to: 'As a percentage of their income'. That fact is not lip service.Javon Young Harvester wrote: »Please stop, Warren Buffett’s secretary does not pay more tax him. 10,000 secretaries probably dont pay as much tax as he does. .
It's all about 'fair share', and his secretary is contributing more of her share of wages, than he does, from his (as a percent).
https://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secretary-taxes/index.html
"But the differential between me and the rest of the office, not just my secretary but the rest of the office, was greater than that. It'll be closer, but I'll probably be the lowest paying taxpayer in the office."
Buffett has been advocating for a minimum tax on top wage earners -- those like himself who benefit from the fact that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than regular earnings.
Gates also said recently he wished he paid more income taxes, hindsight however is convinient.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Sure, they have better opportunities in life.. Money opens many doors. But that's not to say that someone else, who wasn't born in the situation, couldn't create an equally successful life for themselves. There are always going to be inequalities due to backgrounds, such as what your parents achieved and what they're prepared to provide you for your future.
My first degree year. I failed 7 out of 11 exams. Did the repeats, and passed 6. I failed 3 of the exams I passed the first time around. So I changed my major and college, since Computer Science obviously wasn't for me. Moved to Finance, and every single year I failed my accounting exams. Did well in the other exams, but accounting? Meh. Finally passed them after I left college for a while, and worked. I left college and joined the workforce with a diploma, not a degree. Got a crappy first job. Got a worse second job. Got a really good managerial job after that, and then, got into a startup as a manager.
We evolve. We learn. We recognize that we have problems, and that we must work around them. Or we give up. I've known a lot of people who simply gave up, accepting the life that they were presented with. Bugger that. Since then, I've worked in all manner of professions, and obtained much better qualifications... because I didn't give up.
You seem to want everyone to have equal opportunities, even though, many people simply choose not to push themselves. And yes, I know people who failed their LC, worked crappy jobs, went back to pass their LC, and went on to find much better opportunities later.
what if money isnt the only problem, what if the educational system has failed to meet your needs at the earlier stages, the rote system has major pitfalls for some!
we dont all have equal abilities in life, this must somehow be addressed, this is currently done very badly, hence outcomes such as long term unemployment, some criminal behaviors etc etc etc
absolute equality probably isnt possible, it could in fact be dangerous for all to achieve, but too much is simply that, too much, we potentially could be at that point now, its best we try resolve some of these inequalities, and reduce them, if possible, before we start doing really dump stuff!What?
how do you know their parents can afford their medical care?Deleted User wrote: »As did I, because I make a decent living. Actually I spent a lot less, as my kid was taught that money doesn't grow on trees and helped pay for college herself by working low paid part time jobs.
Some of my kids friends got free fees and all sorts of grants to go to college - as I did myself back in the day - because their parents are poor. This is the land of opportunity.
We have a great and fair system here. If anyone gets screwed it's the middle and higher income people. In the UK and US those children of unemployed or poor families would be expected to take out large student loans.
funnily enough, money kinna does grow on trees, within our financial institutions, of which the more plutocratic elements in society have easier access to.
you re truly believing in the utopic 'american dream' nonsense, again we dont live in a world of equal opportunities
many middle class citizens are forced to take on student debt, in order to get a decent education, ive met many successful people that have had to, and were still paying it back in their 50's, even though they were highly successful, very evident in america, its not just the lower classes!I wouldn't panic. The lefties would not know where to start.
If they ever get in there will be some showboating for the masses, look out for shoulder barging the banks ( why not ) and hefty tax charges on the super rich. The clowns will think this is a good idea, they already do in fact.
In reality as soon as they hit 35% in the polls most of the really smart money will be out of here. There lies the biggest irony, all these big shots they plan on taxing will be gonzo.
relax,the left isnt going anywhere, they dont have much of a chance of getting into power, and the conservatives are doing a fine job of fcuking things up anywayDeleted User wrote: »It depends on what kind of employees we're talking about. We live, for the most part, in a skill based economy. Better skills and you have greater opportunities for employment, and in turn, salary. Those with the experience and better skills make the most money... but they're still employees, which means there's always going to be a cap on what they make.
Those who leave employment to start their own businesses, have no such cap, except based on the success of their venture.
Employees are important for the operation of any business, except where the skills of the employees are so low, that they're easily replaced. People, in the western world, have the choice to obtain better skills (whether through third level, or by themselves over the internet). That many people don't choose to improve their skills, and remain on the bottom, is on them. It's not on their employers.
but what if you simply cant get access to further training, even if theres no financial barriers?0 -
Brittany Large Bartender wrote: »Well you'd have to start at closing loopholes, schemes, immoral fiscal tools and 'creative' accounting*, before even a tiny 0.5% wealth tax type increase. It would also have to be a unified effort across the EU and/or OECD(x37 that own 80% of global wealth).
*Remember the Panama Papers fiasco?
e.g. (Saint) Bono used a company (minority investor) in the Channel Islands, which then used low-tax Malta, to then invest in a shopping centre in Eastern Europe, using a Holding Company. Then broke Lithuanian laws using excessive paper losses (revaluation) to avoid paying any tax at all. on the centres profits.
The (aggressive) tax avoidance scheme was considered somewhat legal, but scrapped soon after after public exposure and abuse by the wealthy, particularly the celeb rolemodels of success.
Worth repeating:
- The world’s 2,153 billionaires have more wealth than the 4,600,000,000 people who make up 60% of the planet’s population.
- Getting the richest 1% to pay just 0.5 percent extra tax on their wealth over the next 10 years would equal the investment needed to create 117 million jobs in sectors such as elderly and childcare, education and health.
I agree 100% on abolishing reliefs/loopholes, etc.
On the issue of a wealth tax, note that several countries have scrapped wwealth taxes, due to practical issues.0 -
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Elaborate on these "facts" please.
Billionaires are more bad that good because: They create monopolies which mean less competition which is bad for customers. In America they have the power to influence politics which is bad for democracy.
When a billionaire opens a superstore usually the amount of people employed is less than the people employed by the small stores that may go out of business. Amazon is amazing but it's success put a lot of book stores out of business. Also private jets and yachts are bad for the environment.0 -
Ubbquittious wrote: »They might be worth 100bn but they don't have 100bn to their disposal. The cost of 1 share in their company at the present time multiplied by how many of them they own is how they come up with these figures.
If Bezos started selling shares like mad people would get suspicious fast and the share price would plummet as a result
Jeff Bezos has sold $7.2 billion worth of shares so far in 2020...0 -
Billionaires are more bad that good because: They create monopolies which mean less competition which is bad for customers. In America they have the power to influence politics which is bad for democracy.
When a billionaire opens a superstore usually the amount of people employed is less than the people employed by the small stores that may go out of business. Amazon is amazing but it's success put a lot of book stores out of business. Also private jets and yachts are bad for the environment.
noting, the sme sector is the largest employer of our own state!EndaHonesty wrote: »Jeff Bezos has sold $7.2 billion worth of shares so far in 2020...
after how much was 'invested' in share buy backs!
apologies, i know somebody asked for a link to data and research, i cannot provide it, but many economic commentators talk about it, including irish ones, i know ul economist Stephen Kinsella has done some digging in relation to rising inequality resulting in rising inequalities of opportunities, so his work might be worth checking out for such information:
http://www.stephenkinsella.net/
https://twitter.com/stephenkinsella?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor0 -
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Wanderer78 wrote: »what if money isnt the only problem, what if the educational system has failed to meet your needs at the earlier stages, the rote system has major pitfalls for some!
Which it did. It failed me multiple times throughout my teens and early adulthood. However, it is a system that aims to mass produce education. It wasn't about being unfair or unequal. It was simply that some people fall through the cracks because their type of intelligence wasn't the same as the majority, who did manage quite well within that system.
But things are different now, with all the access to the internet, globalisation of ideas, and the sharing of educational practices. There's more scope to educate the individual than ever before, and it is happening. Slowly, but it's getting there. In time, Technology will create the environment for such learning to occur.we dont all have equal abilities in life, this must somehow be addressed, this is currently done very badly, hence outcomes such as long term unemployment, some criminal behaviors etc etc etc
We will never have equal "abilities" in life. Individually, we are different. Which is something to be admired. In any case, we have the same opportunities towards education up to a point. We can all gain the "basic" (not minimum) level of education needed to start us off... and then, we can come back for more, if we are that way inclined.absolute equality probably isnt possible, it could in fact be dangerous for all to achieve, but too much is simply that, too much, we potentially could be at that point now, its best we try resolve some of these inequalities, and reduce them, if possible, before we start doing really dump stuff!
Equality of outcome is dumb. Active competition between individuals is healthy, and it forces people to evolve to be better suited to the challenges that life presents us with. Some people fail and simply give up, but that should never mean we prevent competition from being a primary driver in society (which we see happening with gender/diversity quotas).
As for these inequalities, I'm still trying to figure out what they are and why they're so important.... My early adult years were anything but successful, but I've had plenty of opportunities towards becoming very successful in my life. Some, I've availed of, others I missed, and some I dismissed as something I didn't want. The opportunities were still there. I could be relatively rich now, if I'd stayed as a professional manager, but I didn't want the life that came with it. My colleagues did, and went on to become quite successful. Choice.0
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