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Opinion on billionaires.
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Brittany Large Bartender wrote: »Issue you are overlooking, is that it's a lower percent '% 'than most individuals, regardless of whatever $xxx,xxx,xxx was paid. There is a duty to 'pay a fair share' (or percent).
That's even before considering the various accounting tools and schemes at their disposal.
I'm not overlooking it.. I said as much in my post. It still doesn't bother me.0 -
Next point I made acknowledged that not all billionaires came through the higher education system so indeed they tend to be not the nicest.Although some rich people do improve mankind the truth is most wealthy people are not improving mankind.
The point I was trying to make was that the pursuit of riches is one of the key driving forces for "the cream" to get the highest qualification they are capable of. Billionaire is an extreme of that. If you take away the riches from the top jobs then you take away the incentive to strive to achieve your academic best. And we need the academic best.0 -
flazio wrote:Next point I made acknowledged that not all billionaires came through the higher education system so indeed they tend to be not the nicest. The point I was trying to make was that the pursuit of riches is one of the key driving forces for "the cream" to get the highest qualification they are capable of. Billionaire is an extreme of that. If you take away the riches from the top jobs then you take away the incentive to strive to achieve your academic best. And we need the academic best.
Most wealthy have many things in their favour, particularly politically, we have managed to convince ourselves that continually rising asset prices, automatically means everyone wins, including the lower classes (rising tide!), but this isn't exactly true, as this tide has a tendency to become a tsunami at times, wrecking the lives of many lower classes0 -
Do they work a thousand times harder than a self made millionaire?They work hard, most of the really rich ones are obsessive about getting shít done.
Good luck to them.
I would rather be born rich and enjoy it than have to work for it. Those dudes don't unwind, when Musk finished college he worked 7 days a week. He lived (literally) in his office with his brother. They are workaholics.
A million times harder than a working class father/mother who struggles to maintain a thousand euros in their savings account?
The biggest problem with billionaires is not that I envy their wealth and luxurious existence, it’s the political influence they buy with their money that distorts legal and regulatory frameworks at the expense of everyone else.
The tax system should prevent billionaires from existing. But it’s a vicious cycle, the tax system is decided by politicians who are funded by donations from the richest individuals and corporations with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo
(Not to mention the fact that in a globalized world, billionaires can play nation states off against each other to force down taxes and regulations in their own best interests)0 -
Corporations dehumanize workers. They may pay good compensation and benefits to the ‘talent’ but they will outsource everything else so that you can work in a building where the company pays its staff way above average, but all of the cleaners, cooks, security, print room staff etc are all on minimum wage working for contractors who bid at the lowest price.Yes some are very good employers.
In one company you could have some that are treated well paid bonus etc and within the same comapny some paid a low wage and not treated in a good way.
At the moment we live in a socitey that wants and encourages this. But is it right? Thats up to each person to decide.
Suppliers get squeezed without regard for the consequences to the employees of those suppliers, it’s just a heartless system with lobbiests funded by the wealthiest, putting pressure on governments to reduce standards and workers rights and supports for struggling workers in the good times, and lobbying for bailouts and grants and supports for their industry when the economic cycle turns downwards0 -
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@ Akrasia - I respect that you have probably just put down your copy of "Differenz der demokritischen und epikureischen Naturphilosophie nebst einem Anhange" and I am glad you had a look, it is good to keep abreast of 19th century philosophy after all.
But lets be honest, when that crap was written 12 year olds were working coal mines in their bare feat in towns like Vladivostock and Redhill. People lived in sweat shops on the river Barrow ironing linen 7 days a week.
Get a grip, you need a few Billionaires to keep the economy going, they are paying billions in tax despite the crap you hear down the pub or read in the rags.
I happened to study economics at 3rd level and I know that there are 4 stages of production, one of them is ENTERPRISE. It is a fact of life, Get over it.0 -
IAMAMORON wrote:Get a grip, you need a few Billionaires to keep the economy going, they are paying billions in tax despite the crap you hear down the pub or read in the rags.
The activities of the wealthy aren't always good for humanity, some are of course, some are transferring the lives of humans immensely, but some are causing great damage, it's not always win win for all!IAMAMORON wrote:I happened to study economics at 3rd level and I know that there are 4 stages of production, one of them is ENTERPRISE. It is a fact of life, Get over it.
Probably largely neoclassical, ignore it, it's largely nonsense0 -
Corporations dehumanize workers. They may pay good compensation and benefits to the ‘talent’ but they will outsource everything else so that you can work in a building where the company pays its staff way above average, but all of the cleaners, cooks, security, print room staff etc are all on minimum wage working for contractors who bid at the lowest price.
Suppliers get squeezed without regard for the consequences to the employees of those suppliers, it’s just a heartless system with lobbiests funded by the wealthiest, putting pressure on governments to reduce standards and workers rights and supports for struggling workers in the good times, and lobbying for bailouts and grants and supports for their industry when the economic cycle turns downwards
How many people does your broke ass employ?0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »The activities of the wealthy aren't always good for humanity, some are of course, some are transferring the lives of humans immensely, but some are causing great damage, it's not always win win for all!
I wouldn't waste your time blaming things on the wealthy. Just because you have read a few books does not mean you are in a position to take their power away, or their wealth. When the mob comes for their heads they will just jump in their choppers and be in the Caribbean in an hour. Wealthy people are too busy making money to be worried about tribesmen in Namibia hunting tree lizards and barbecuing them with wild honey.Wanderer78 wrote: »Probably largely neoclassical, ignore it, it's largely nonsense
Agreed and I think they need to get modern tech in their also, it is game changing after all.0 -
I also studied economics at 3rd level and supernormal profits are a market failure@ Akrasia - I respect that you have probably just put down your copy of "Differenz der demokritischen und epikureischen Naturphilosophie nebst einem Anhange" and I am glad you had a look, it is good to keep abreast of 19th century philosophy after all.
But lets be honest, when that crap was written 12 year olds were working coal mines in their bare feat in towns like Vladivostock and Redhill. People lived in sweat shops on the river Barrow ironing linen 7 days a week.
Get a grip, you need a few Billionaires to keep the economy going, they are paying billions in tax despite the crap you hear down the pub or read in the rags.
I happened to study economics at 3rd level and I know that there are 4 stages of production, one of them is ENTERPRISE. It is a fact of life, Get over it.
Billionaires very often earn and grow/maintain their fortune by extracting economic rent from the trading and ownership of resources rather than from generating any new value from their own labour or enterprise and as people get richer and dominate their sector, they gain monopolies and can distort the markets they are trading in so they can profit further even by reducing the productivity of the sector overall
Oh and by the way, child labour absolutely still exists, it has been outsourced to countries with lower regulations on labour or to suppliers who operate on the fringes between the official and black economy0 -
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I also studied economics at 3rd level and supernormal profits are a market failure
Billionaires very often earn and grow/maintain their fortune by extracting economic rent from the trading and ownership of resources rather than from generating any new value from their own labour or enterprise and as people get richer and dominate their sector, they gain monopolies and can distort the markets they are trading in so they can profit further even by reducing the productivity of the sector overall
Oh and by the way, child labour absolutely still exists, it has been outsourced to countries with lower regulations on labour or to suppliers who operate on the fringes between the official and black economy
Cmere, enough with the diatribe. I will believe you if you say you studied. I did too and I never wanna hear it again, the most boring shight I ever learnt, graphs and all. Garbage.
By the time I left college they were still discussing Maynard Keynes and probably still are.
If you don't like child labour go and do something about it. All our ancestors did it and it probably didn't do them any harm either. Most children waste their youth on Ipads these days, an afternoon washing linen mightn't do them any harm.
I will start ranting about my paper round next and I would prefer to not go there if I am honest with you.0 -
I'd argue that the best thing to do is put better things on that ipad than tiktok or whatever meme generator is trendy..
If you don't like child labour go and do something about it. All our ancestors did it and it probably didn't do them any harm either. Most children waste their youth on Ipads these days, an afternoon washing linen mightn't do them any harm.
It's an excellent education resource if used properly. (sadly it mostly isn't)0 -
This.Do they work a thousand times harder than a self made millionaire?
A million times harder than a working class father/mother who struggles to maintain a thousand euros in their savings account?
Nobody earns a billion euro. There aren't enough seconds in the day for a single individual to put in enough effort to justify a return of a billion euro. Not even over an entire lifetime.0 -
This.
Nobody earns a billion euro. There aren't enough seconds in the day for a single individual to put in enough effort to justify a return of a billion euro. Not even over an entire lifetime.
They have and they do, just because it doesn’t conform with your definition of earn doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
Amazon has changed the face of e-commerce , bezos did that, so to him goes the spoils0 -
I'd argue that the best thing to do is put better things on that ipad than tiktok or whatever meme generator is trendy.
It's an excellent education resource if used properly. (sadly it mostly isn't)
Very progressive. I would argue that they should have child training regimes ( I know I think it sounds sinister too) on their Ipads. Get those nippers off the couch and out on the street playing tip the can where they belong.0 -
Brittany Large Bartender wrote: »Not much to say, other than they should be paying real, proper taxes, and have a moral duty not to abuse tax efficency schemes including inheritance tax evasion using trust funds.
What extra taxes would you like them to pay?
Higher income tax?
Or a wealth tax?0 -
begbysback wrote: »How many people does your broke ass employ?
how many people have these wealthy companies made unemployed?I wouldn't waste your time blaming things on the wealthy. Just because you have read a few books does not mean you are in a position to take their power away, or their wealth. When the mob comes for their heads they will just jump in their choppers and be in the Caribbean in an hour. Wealthy people are too busy making money to be worried about tribesmen in Namibia hunting tree lizards and barbecuing them with wild honey.
Agreed and I think they need to get modern tech in their also, it is game changing after all.
this is far more complex than just wealthy individuals, the modern plutocratic class is highly complex involving, wealthy individuals, wealthy families, wealthy businesses, including wealthy corporations, wealthy institutions, including wealthy financial institutions........
we have manged to convince ourselves, by creating and allowing this concentration of wealth, that everybody effectively wins, we ve been playing this game for many decades now, and our reality is, this thinking is causing severe instabilities in all human needs, including for the wealthy, in terms of socially, politically, economically and environmentally, im sure other instabilities are also occurring, of which i havent noticed yet. all humans need some elements of stability is these categories, in order to survive on this planet, the wealthy can of course jump in their helicopters, but if this trend continues, they ll eventually have no where safe to go, and their wealth sources could eventually dry up, i.e. theres a possibility, they ll end up on the titanic with us, they might just remain on the upper decks, for a little while longer.
interesting analogy about the tribes people, maybe some americans are currently experiencing something similar to their Namibia counterparts, and are expressing this in anger!Cmere, enough with the diatribe. I will believe you if you say you studied. I did too and I never wanna hear it again, the most boring shight I ever learnt, graphs and all. Garbage.
yup, neoclassical is largely nonsense, it has little or no relation to human behavior, its a mathematical mythical world, that simply doesnt exist on this planet, with its equilibriums, its supplies and demands, its rationally expecting humans that are only self interested, yada yada yada.....
By the time I left college they were still discussing Maynard Keynes and probably still are.
If you don't like child labour go and do something about it. All our ancestors did it and it probably didn't do them any harm either. Most children waste their youth on Ipads these days, an afternoon washing linen mightn't do them any harm.
I will start ranting about my paper round next and I would prefer to not go there if I am honest with you.
we have figured out how to create large amounts of wealthy, with relative ease, and relatively quickly to, its probably a good idea we share it a little more, before we do something really really stupid such as completely wrecking the planet environmentally or worse, from acts of war! theres no need for child labour, anywhere on this planet!
i would be interested to hear about your paper, seriously, i would!They have and they do, just because it doesn’t conform with your definition of earn doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
Amazon has changed the face of e-commerce , bezos did that, so to him goes the spoils
i suspect its not that hard having to switch on a computer device, to view the value of your assets growing, it certainly isnt for me! have they worked hard, of course they have, as have i, but i suspect not as hard as you may think!
again, amazon makes little or nothing from its delivery service, they are in fact a monopoly in the sector, preventing competitors from existing, and crushing anyone that did previously exist, in both the public and private sectors, out of existance. bezos was greatly helped by both internal helpers(employees), and external elements, he alone has not created his entire wealth.Very progressive. I would argue that they should have child training regimes ( I know I think it sounds sinister too) on their Ipads. Get those nippers off the couch and out on the street playing tip the can where they belong.
'child training regimes'! you ll have to explain that one??What extra taxes would you like them to pay?
Higher income tax?
Or a wealth tax?
maybe, but sharing the spoils of the wealth created, is now becoming critical, before we really do something stupid! sharing the wealth created by the value of the assets created, is probably a good idea, and quickly to! rising asset prices is a wealth stream, a few more tributaries could easily be created, to supply wealth towards more individuals, without having serious negative effects on these businesses, it could in fact be an overall positive experience for all, i suspect it would be.0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »
i suspect its not that hard having to switch on a computer device, to view the value of your assets growing, it certainly isnt for me!
If that’s your take on things it’s not worth responding any further0 -
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Wanderer78 wrote: »i personally dont work all that hard when i switch on my computer device to view the value of my assets, in fact i kinna find it somewhat boring sometimes, i certainly dont feel like im burning too many calories
Good for you, I’m sure you are just growing them to the point where you can give them all away to those more needing of them that you0 -
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I never get the concept of " sharing" wealth. Such bullshít.
Put it this way, entrepreneurs are only in it for the money, hence the exploitation of labour. Please get over it.0 -
Good for you, I’m sure you are just growing them to the point where you can give them all away to those more needing of them that youGood for you, I’m sure you are just growing them to the point where you can give them all away to those more needing of them that you
im not asking people such as bezos or musk to give away their wealth, im advocating that they share more of the overall wealth thats created from their enterprises with their employees and with the rest of society, these are wealth streams, and it would be relatively easily to do so, without having any serious effect on these individuals overall wealth. the value of assets, including my own, could easily go towards zero, and relatively quickly, i have worked hard to gain access to these assets, but im not working hard with regards their overall rate of growth in value, this in similar for the likes of the wealthy. many humans struggle to gain access to these assets, and the wealth created from them, and for some, it will simply never happen, therefore its important that everything is done to try resolve it, even some respected financiers agree with this, including irish hedge fund manager eric lonergan.I never get the concept of " sharing" wealth. Such bullshít.
Put it this way, entrepreneurs are only in it for the money, hence the exploitation of labour. Please get over it.
people that are struggling in all of this are doing just that, by turning to anger, and anger lead activities such as rioting etc, is this what we want?0 -
I read something on the internet (so it must be true!) recently that made me stop and start to pay more heed to the billionaires in the world and what they do with their money
For a bit of perspective
A million seconds takes about 11 days to pass
A billion seconds takes over 31 years to pass
11 days versus 31 years!
Most of us have occasionally dreamed about winning the lottery and how much we'd need to change our lives, how many million we'd need and how we'd start to spread around a bit amongst family and friends and how we'd support a few charitable works. Even then you'd be living off the interest for the rest of your life. But billionaires is just off the scale of comprehension0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »people that are struggling in all of this are doing just that, by turning to anger, and anger lead activities such as rioting etc, is this what we want?
It has been the part time occupation of the disenfranchised for centuries, there really is nothing to see here.
Most rioters are in it for the riot rather than the protest which they are supposed to be there for. People do be into throwing stuff around and burning a few bins. In France protest is like a cultural pastime, it has become perennial rather than a catalyst for radical change. In fact if it is radical change you are after you should be asking the billionaires, they are the ones ahead of the game. Most French businesses factor in industrial disputes as a cost in their annual budgets, it just gets dumped and indexed linked into inflation, they expect it to happen.
"Déficit éventuel des conflits industriels" - You see French billionaires are proactive about getting it done, they need to be.0 -
It has been the part time occupation of the disenfranchised for centuries, there really is nothing to see here.
Most rioters are in it for the riot rather than the protest which they are supposed to be there for. People do be into throwing stuff around and burning a few bins. In France protest is like a cultural pastime, it has become perennial rather than a catalyst for radical change. In fact if it is radical change you are after you should be asking the billionaires, they are the ones ahead of the game. Most French businesses factor in industrial disputes as a cost in their annual budgets, it just gets dumped and indexed linked into inflation, they expect it to happen.
"Déficit éventuel des conflits industriels" - You see French billionaires are proactive about getting it done, they need to be.
these could be famous last words, something similar happened in the 30's/40's, and we all know what happened next! be careful what you wish for! we again, have pushed wealth inequalities to dangerous limits, do we really wanna repeat history!
speaking of inflation, where is it???? has all these bailouts worked, has activities such as qe worked???
some billionaires dont seem to be ahead of things such as wealth inequality at all, we of course need them innovating, but less so in financial activities such as share buy backs etc, as they truly only benefit the few, and further endanger the many.
then theres radical election and voting outcomes such as trump, brexit and the rise of the right, and even radical election outcomes such as our own recent ge's, are these radical outcomes truly beneficially to all, including the wealthy???0 -
Well you'd have to start at closing loopholes, schemes, immoral fiscal tools and 'creative' accounting*, before even a tiny 0.5% wealth tax type increase. It would also have to be a unified effort across the EU and/or OECD(x37 that own 80% of global wealth).What extra taxes would you like them to pay?
Higher income tax? Or a wealth tax?
*Remember the Panama Papers fiasco?
e.g. (Saint) Bono used a company (minority investor) in the Channel Islands, which then used low-tax Malta, to then invest in a shopping centre in Eastern Europe, using a Holding Company. Then broke Lithuanian laws using excessive paper losses (revaluation) to avoid paying any tax at all. on the centres profits.
Meanwhile celebs in the uk are still laughing about their *K2 tax 'whoopsie', Jimmy Carr has lols about this regularly, having been caught out twice.
The (aggressive) tax avoidance scheme was considered somewhat legal, but scrapped soon after after public exposure and abuse by the wealthy, particularly the celeb rolemodels of success.
Worth repeating:
- The world’s 2,153 billionaires have more wealth than the 4,600,000,000 people who make up 60% of the planet’s population.
- Getting the richest 1% to pay just 0.5 percent extra tax on their wealth over the next 10 years would equal the investment needed to create 117 million jobs in sectors such as elderly and childcare, education and health.0 -
Wanderer78 wrote: »these could be famous last words, something similar happened in the 30's/40's, and we all know what happened next! be careful what you wish for! we again, have pushed wealth inequalities to dangerous limits, do we really wanna repeat history!
You may have a degree in economics but you are not Nostradamus either.Wanderer78 wrote: »speaking of inflation, where is it???? has all these bailouts worked, has activities such as qe worked???
Inflation is around here ((B - A)/A)*100, you can make graphs and everything, knock yourself out.Wanderer78 wrote: »some billionaires dont seem to be ahead of things such as wealth inequality at all, we of course need them innovating, but less so in financial activities such as share buy backs etc, as they truly only benefit the few, and further endanger the many.
Steady on there pal. Get real on this, billionaires don't have a conscience about making money unless it means making more. Their PR teams will handle any bad press, but they are over internet ramblings from nobodies long ago, no fox given.Wanderer78 wrote: »then theres radical election and voting outcomes such as trump, brexit and the rise of the right, and even radical election outcomes such as our own recent ge's, are these radical outcomes truly beneficially to all, including the wealthy???
Donald Trump is a leg. The middle east love him. The hawks hate him because arms sales are down. Anyone who spends 5 years complaining about Donald Trump, not only deserves to, but is also a victim of an American liberal agenda who cannot handle newbies, he shook them up and they don't like it, locker room talk is ignored by billionaires as well. He is only controversial so his PR team can analyse the meta data, get ready for 4 more years.0 -
You may have a degree in economics but you are not Nostradamus either.
Inflation is around here ((B - A)/A)*100, you can make graphs and everything, knock yourself out.
Steady on there pal. Get real on this, billionaires don't have a conscience about making money unless it means making more. Their PR teams will handle any bad press, but they are over internet ramblings from nobodies long ago, no fox given.
Donald Trump is a leg. The middle east love him. The hawks hate him because arms sales are down. Anyone who spends 5 years complaining about Donald Trump, not only deserves to, but is also a victim of an American liberal agenda who cannot handle newbies, he shook them up and they don't like it, locker room talk is ignored by billionaires as well. He is only controversial so his PR team can analyse the meta data, get ready for 4 more years.
wouldnt touch educational economics with a barge pole, its all largely neoclassical, which again, has little or no meaning in the real world, theres no such thing as equilibrium, particularly at the macro level, and rationally expecting humans etc etc
is inflation really that simple mathematically, and where is this inflation?
according to stiglitz, some wealthy Brazilians are deeply concerned about growing wealth inequalities in their own country, and are actively getting involved in reducing it, im also aware of a group of american millionaires that are also doing something similar in their country, so id have to somewhat disagree there. have you spoken directly to all of these wealthy individuals, to confirm your opinion?
oh, we ve gone down this road!:rolleyes: id say biden will just about get in, just about, but wont be able to change much, as american problems are a lot more complex than just changing the chap at the top, or perceived to be at the top!0 -
Ireland isn't too bad. America is ****ed. I mean, billionaires and big companies are literally the people making the laws, making the tax loopholes. Donate x to a particular party or politician and get 10x in return through tax breaks. Lobbying companies exist to do it for them, it's that easy. Finance a "think tank" to help change public opinion. When money is no object, this is easy and powerful people are more than willing to help.
And the people are conditioned for it. Speak out about helping the little guy and you're called communist but ignore the trillion dollar bailouts. They're fine. The market will work itself (except when a big company needs a bailout). Capitalism should mean a company that fails, fails.0 -
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Ireland isn't too bad. America is ****ed. I mean, billionaires and big companies are literally the people making the laws, making the tax loopholes. Donate x to a particular party or politician and get 10x in return through tax breaks. Lobbying companies exist to do it for them, it's that easy. Finance a "think tank" to help change public opinion. When money is no object, this is easy and powerful people are more than willing to help.
And the people are conditioned for it. Speak out about helping the little guy and you're called communist but ignore the trillion dollar bailouts. They're fine. The market will work itself (except when a big company needs a bailout). Capitalism should mean a company that fails, fails.
but what should be done if these companies are 'systemically important'!!0
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