New Job was Misleading

Danni21

Hi guys,

I've just returned from travel and started a new job. I don't mean to sound ungrateful as I know i'm lucky to have a job. The issue is we are on week 2 of training and due to start working next week. I haven't received my contract yet.

We are doing group training online and were given our shifts/schedule today. When I asked hours initially before agreeing to take the job I was told "Sunday to Thursday"

I thought this was fine, 5 day week with my weekend off. It now seems that this is not the case but that it is 7 days on for everyone with 2 days off. We get a weekend once a month.

I'm really annoyed over this as i'm planning to do a part time evening course and doing 7 days on with 2/3 days course work in between is too much. Also this was never mentioned in any of my emails with HR.

We're due to get paid this week for the two weeks so far as it's monthly pay but I feel like quitting.

I guess my question is what are my legal obligations?

Can I quit on the spot?

antix80

You can walk out immediately. Your employer is in breach of contract. It would affect any entitlement you have to benefits.

I assume you've already spoken to your assigned manager /trainer about it? Make sure there's no miscommunication.

You could also discuss with the HR /recruitment person. Don't let them fob you off to a TL or anyone else - they offered you the job. Especially don't listen to speeches about trying to be fair to everyone by rotating the hours.
If it sounds like they won't make it work and fob you off or give you a straight out "no".. Personally I'd just stop turning up. If they call you you can explain the reason. If you want to be polite you could quit verbally.

If you want to write a letter "dear sirs, due to my rostered hours being different to hours we agreed on (interview date), i hereby terminate my employment effective immediately. As i previously advised, i have other commitments and am not available to work Fridays or Saturdays."

Tell me how

Danni21 wrote: »

Hi guys,

I've just returned from travel and started a new job. I don't mean to sound ungrateful as I know i'm lucky to have a job. The issue is we are on week 2 of training and due to start working next week. I haven't received my contract yet.

We are doing group training online and were given our shifts/schedule today. When I asked hours initially before agreeing to take the job I was told "Sunday to Thursday"

I thought this was fine, 5 day week with my weekend off. It now seems that this is not the case but that it is 7 days on for everyone with 2 days off. We get a weekend once a month.

I'm really annoyed over this as i'm planning to do a part time evening course and doing 7 days on with 2/3 days course work in between is too much. Also this was never mentioned in any of my emails with HR.

We're due to get paid this week for the two weeks so far as it's monthly pay but I feel like quitting.

I guess my question is what are my legal obligations?

Can I quit on the spot?

Yes.

'The working schedule is not what I was lead to believe it would be before I started in the role and it does not work for me.

Therefore, I will no longer be working here.'

Say it in person, or in writing and leave. If you have been given any equipment or materials such as an ID or access badge, hand them to your supervisor.

Kaybaykwah

Yes, it certainly sounds as if they snared you in. You should unsnare yourself out.

_Brian

I would ask about the difference in information first. Scope out why there is a discrepancy.

You can leave yes but I’d rather see can something be worked out first.

Danni21

_Brian wrote: »

I would ask about the difference in information first. Scope out why there is a discrepancy.

You can leave yes but I’d rather see can something be worked out first.

I highly doubt it to be honest. Every single employee does 7 days by the looks. It left me with a dubious feeling the fact we haven't got our contracts a week and a half in to training,

Danni21

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes.

'The working schedule is not what I was lead to believe it would be before I started in the role and it does not work for me.

Therefore, I will no longer be working here.'

Say it in person, or in writing and leave. If you have been given any equipment or materials such as an ID or access badge, hand them to your supervisor.

Its work from home. I've got all the IT equipment etc.

Tell me how

Danni21 wrote: »

Its work from home. I've got all the IT equipment etc.

Who owns it?
Did the company install any software on it?
Do you have access to any company information or drives via the equipment?

If they own it, don't use it after you leave. Or announce you are leaving, unless it is within a notice period. Same goes with accessing any information or drives. Do not do so unless at a time when you are specifically authorised to do this.

If it is working from home? Is the schedule still an issue? Can you fit your time in to when works for you while then covering the weekend as requested?

Danni21

antix80 wrote: »

You can walk out immediately. Your employer is in breach of contract. It would affect any entitlement you have to benefits.

I assume you've already spoken to your assigned manager /trainer about it? Make sure there's no miscommunication.

You could also discuss with the HR /recruitment person. Don't let them fob you off to a TL or anyone else - they offered you the job. Especially don't listen to speeches about trying to be fair to everyone by rotating the hours.
If it sounds like they won't make it work and fob you off or give you a straight out "no".. Personally I'd just stop turning up. If they call you you can explain the reason. If you want to be polite you could quit verbally.

If you want to write a letter "dear sirs, due to my rostered hours being different to hours we agreed on (interview date), i hereby terminate my employment effective immediately. As i previously advised, i have other commitments and am not available to work Fridays or Saturdays."

Thank you.

I would have accommodated possibly doing every couple of weekends. Its the 7 day working week that is not realistic.

Darc19

antix80 wrote: »

You can walk out immediately. Your employer is in breach of contract. It would affect any entitlement you have to benefits.

I"

How is it breach of a contract that doesn't exist?

For op, there's no requirement on either party to give notice to quit at this early stage.

Danni21

Tell me how wrote: »

Who owns it?
Did the company install any software on it?
Do you have access to any company information or drives via the equipment?

If they own it, don't use it after you leave. Or announce you are leaving, unless it is within a notice period. Same goes with accessing any information or drives. Do not do so unless at a time when you are specifically authorised to do this.

If it is working from home? Is the schedule still an issue? Can you fit your time in to when works for you while then covering the weekend as requested?

Its the companies. There is some company info on there. Not much software as such but do have access to online platforms etc with company information.

Schedule is too much. 7 days in a row with 3 evenings of classes as oppose to 5 days and 2 evenings. It's night shifts too. I'll be exhausted.

listermint

7 days on 2 days off 7 days on...

Seems a bit.. erm weird. Are you sure you've got that accurate.

Tell me how

Danni21 wrote: »

Its the companies. There is some company info on there. Not much software as such but do have access to online You platforms etc with company information.

Schedule is too much. 7 days in a row with 3 evenings of classes as oppose to 5 days and 2 evenings. It's night shifts too. I'll be exhausted.

You know best whether the shift will work for you or not, but ordinarily I would say try it and see how it goes. College work can be somewhat flexible so the idea of being off for 7 days (if I understand the shift rota) might actually work. Again, you know best.

If you are intent on leaving, prepare all equipment to hand over at the moment which for you is when you are stopping working there.
Will make it much smoother than having to arrange to do so later.

Danni21

listermint wrote: »

7 days on 2 days off 7 days on...

Seems a bit.. erm weird. Are you sure you've got that accurate.

My course is two evenings a week. So with the 7 days on with the job there will be some weeks where it might be 3 evenings.

Danni21

Tell me how wrote: »

You know best whether the shift will work for you or not, but ordinarily I would say try it and see how it goes. College work can be somewhat flexible so the idea of being off for 7 days (if I understand the shift rota) might actually work. Again, you know best.

If you are intent on leaving, prepare all equipment to hand over at the moment which for you is when you are stopping working there.
Will make it much smoother than having to arrange to do so later.

Im not off for 7 days. Its 7 days on, 2 days off.

Tell me how

Danni21 wrote: »

Im not off for 7 days. Its 7 days on, 2 days off.

How many hours/day week? Do you expect to work or do they expect you to work?

This makes it look like there is some flexibility in terms of fitting in your job when it suits within the 7 days?

Danni21

Tell me how wrote: »

How many hours/day week? Do you expect to work or do they expect you to work?

This makes it look like there is some flexibility in terms of fitting in your job when it suits within the 7 days?

No its a very rigid roster. 8 hour shifts.

antix80

Darc19 wrote: »

How is it breach of a contract that doesn't exist?

For op, there's no requirement on either party to give notice to quit at this early stage.

A verbal contract is still a contract. You're actually wrong

Danni21

antix80 wrote: »

A verbal contract is still a contract. You're actually wrong

Which is better for me??? I was distinctly told Thursday to Sunday.

Markcheese

Have a proper talk to someone in hr before you quit , 7 on 2 off sounds a bit weird , since everything is still verbal so far could there be a bit of mis-communication ,

Danni21

Markcheese wrote: »

Have a proper talk to someone in hr before you quit , 7 on 2 off sounds a bit weird , since everything is still verbal so far could there be a bit of mis-communication ,

It's not a miscommunication. One of the IT guys shared the roster via Zoom yesterday and then emailed to us. Everyone does 7 days at a time. I also seen a message when my online trainer screen shared saying "I hate telling the new hires they have to work 7 days" from the same guy. Guess my trainer made a blunder. So why would a guy that is not HR be hating having to "tell" us this. We're now a week and a half in. This should have been disclosed from day 1. Sounds hella shady to me.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

7 x 8 sounds illegal under the OWTA. Haven’t worked out the 16 week average though.

TheChizler

Danni21 wrote: »

No its a very rigid roster. 8 hour shifts.

I'd clarify that they're in fact asking you to do a 56 hour week including overtime occasionally, and work through an example naming the days. I've known managers who describe shifts in a very strange way because it's the only way they can figure out rosters in their head.

Danni21

Thomas Tinkling Ramrod wrote: »

7 x 8 sounds illegal under the OWTA.

Thanks Thomas Tinkling Ramrod.

I'm a bit out of the loop around Employment law in Ireland at the minute as i've been away. I'm thinking they might be getting away with it based on the structure of the week.

Eg. Next week - I work Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday off. Then I work Thursday, Friday Saturday and Sunday. So that's technically 5 days in that week. But then i'm also in Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Surely the working week is considered around the hours the business operates etc to some degree?

Just had a look and apparently 48 hours is legal.

Smee_Again

TheChizler wrote: »

I'd clarify that they're in fact asking you to do a 56 hour week including overtime occasionally, and work through an example naming the days. I've known managers who describe shifts in a very strange way because it's the only way they can figure out rosters in their head.

Yeah, he must have made a mistake with the hours.

Most likely they mean a 7 day week but you work on 5 days.

Otherwise he’d be working an average of 48 hours a week with no rest days on certain weeks.

Danni21

Smee_Again wrote: »

Yeah, he must have made a mistake with the hours.

Most likely they mean a 7 day week but you work on 5 days.

Otherwise he’d be working an average of 48 hours a week with no rest days on certain weeks.

Nope. I've seen the roster. It's 7 days of working and then 2 days off. This might run into the next week, but it's still 7 days without a break.

Danni21

TheChizler wrote: »

I'd clarify that they're in fact asking you to do a 56 hour week including overtime occasionally, and work through an example naming the days. I've known managers who describe shifts in a very strange way because it's the only way they can figure out rosters in their head.

It's 100% a 56 hour week, but with our breaks it's 48 hours working. 7 days work then two days off. I've seen the roster for the next few weeks.

They’re not going to change it to suit you, so whether misled or not, if you don’t want to work the roster you need to jack it in right now and get back to jobhunting.

Places like that have been through this time and again and it’ll be water off a ducks back. You won’t get them over a barrel so you may as well focus the energy elsewhere.

Danni21

JayZeus wrote: »

They’re not going to change it to suit you, so whether misled or not, if you don’t want to work the roster you need to jack it in right now and get back to jobhunting.

Places like that have been through this time and again and it’ll be water off a ducks back. You won’t get them over a barrel so you may as well focus the energy elsewhere.

I don't want them over a barrel. I simply want to know if I can just up and leave without repurcussions.

Galadriel

Danni21 wrote: »

I don't want them over a barrel. I simply want to know if I can just up and leave without repurcussions.

Of course, you haven't signed anything.

Markcheese

Danni21 wrote: »

I don't want them over a barrel. I simply want to know if I can just up and leave without repurcussions.

You can ,

This is all you need to know op.


https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/ending%20the%20employment%20relationship/minimum%20notice/

Bandana boy

you need to get clarification as you are definitely mistaken with 7 days on 2 days off , this would be illegal.
I suspect it is 5 over 7 in your contract . But get it clarified , while no repercussions with just quitting , if you came through an agency to the role they will never touch you again.

_Brian

Danni21 wrote: »

I don't want them over a barrel. I simply want to know if I can just up and leave without repurcussions.

Yes.. You can

Danni21

Bandana boy wrote: »

you need to get clarification as you are definitely mistaken with 7 days on 2 days off , this would be illegal.
I suspect it is 5 over 7 in your contract . But get it clarified , while no repercussions with just quitting , if you came through an agency to the role they will never touch you again.

I'm 100% on this. It's a 7 day roster which will fall over two weeks in most cases. It's 7 days continuous and then 2 days off. I didn't go through an agency, which is a pity because i'd be straight back on to them.

seamus

Danni21 wrote: »

Thanks Dogg Munde.

I'm a bit out of the loop around Employment law in Ireland at the minute as i've been away. I'm thinking they might be getting away with it based on the structure of the week.

Eg. Next week - I work Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday off. Then I work Thursday, Friday Saturday and Sunday. So that's technically 5 days in that week. But then i'm also in Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Well, tease that out.

Does the roster look like this?

|Mon|Tue|Wed|Thu|Fri|Sat|Sun
Week 1|On|Off|Off|On|On|On|On
Week 2|On|On|On|Off|Off|On|On
Week 3|On|On|On|On|On|Off|Off

Cos that's five days a week, not seven.

Edit: I expanded it out a bit. There are some weeks you'll do seven days and only get two days off after. Every month will have a "long week" that's either 6 or 7 days. The pattern repeats every ten weeks, and the average weekly hours in those ten weeks is 43.2.

So this is legal, but it is ugly as hell. I cannot see any rationale for any company to operate on this basis except to squeeze employees for extra hours by making the schedule look like five days a week, but being confusing enough so that employees aren't sure.

Allinall

seamus wrote: »

Well, tease that out.

Does the roster look like this?

|Mon|Tue|Wed|Thu|Fri|Sat|Sun
Week 1|On|Off|Off|On|On|On|On
Week 2|On|On|On|Off|Off|On|On
Week 3|On|On|On|On|On|Off|Off

Cos that's five days a week, not seven.

Carry on to week 4........

seamus

Allinall wrote: »

Carry on to week 4........

I had to bring it all the way to week 16 to figure it out

I updated my post.

Danni21

seamus wrote: »

Well, tease that out.

Does the roster look like this?

|Mon|Tue|Wed|Thu|Fri|Sat|Sun
Week 1|On|Off|Off|On|On|On|On
Week 2|On|On|On|Off|Off|On|On
Week 3|On|On|On|On|On|Off|Off

Cos that's five days a week, not seven.

Edit: I expanded it out a bit. There are some weeks you'll do seven days and only get two days off after. Every month will have a "long week" that's either 6 or 7 days. The pattern repeats every ten weeks, and the average weekly hours in those ten weeks is 43.2.

So this is legal, but it is ugly as hell. I cannot see any rationale for any company to operate on this basis except to squeeze employees for extra hours by making the schedule look like five days a week, but being confusing enough so that employees aren't sure.

I didn't say 7 days a week. I said seven days on which overlaps on to the next week and 2 days off.

JazzyJ

Expanding on what seamus posted, the roster will be like this - it repeats every 10 weeks

|Mon|Tue|Wed|Thu|Fri|Sat|Sun|Working days in week
Week 1||||||||7
Week 2|OFF|OFF||||||5
Week 3|||OFF|OFF||||5
Week 4|||||OFF|OFF||5
Week 5|||||||OFF|6
Week 6|OFF|||||||6
Week 7||OFF|OFF|||||5
Week 8||||OFF|OFF|||5
Week 9||||||OFF|OFF|5


Week 10 will be back to the same as week 1.

Total 49 days worked over 9 weeks averages at 5.44 days/43.55 hours per week.

It's well within working hours regulations, nothing illegal about it. Extending it out to 4 months per the working hours act, the average is probably around 44 hours per week.


It wouldn't be my cup of tea!

Danni21

JazzyJ wrote: »

Expanding on what seamus posted, the roster will be like this - it repeats every 10 weeks

|Mon|Tue|Wed|Thu|Fri|Sat|Sun|Working days in week
Week 1||||||||7
Week 2|OFF|OFF||||||5
Week 3|||OFF|OFF||||5
Week 4|||||OFF|OFF||5
Week 5|||||||OFF|6
Week 6|OFF|||||||6
Week 7||OFF|OFF|||||5
Week 8||||OFF|OFF|||5
Week 9||||||OFF|OFF|5


Week 10 will be back to the same as week 1.

Total 49 days worked over 9 weeks averages at 5.44 days/43.55 hours per week.

It's well within working hours regulations, nothing illegal about it. Extending it out to 4 months per the working hours act, the average is probably around 44 hours per week.


It wouldn't be my cup of tea!

It's still not what I was told or agreed to. I was told working week Sunday to Thursday.

ibarelycare

Danni21 wrote: »

It's still not what I was told or agreed to. I was told working week Sunday to Thursday.

What has the response been when you queried why it's different to what you agreed?

listermint

Danni21 wrote: »

It's still not what I was told or agreed to. I was told working week Sunday to Thursday.

thats not legal, you need to ask the question and also ask why the hours changed to what the interview said.

Again its not legal to work the hours listed. So id suspect you may have picked it up wrong or the person describing it was a muppet.

wench

listermint wrote: »

thats not legal, you need to ask the question and also ask why the hours changed to what the interview said.

Again its not legal to work the hours listed. So id suspect you may have picked it up wrong or the person describing it was a muppet.

On what basis is it not legal? It looks to comply with the Working Time Act

Danni21

Danni21 wrote: »

It's 100% a 56 hour week, but with our breaks it's 48 hours working. 7 days work then two days off. I've seen the roster for the next few weeks.

It's 100% not a 56 hour week. It's the averages that count, not one select week.

Week 1: 56 hours
Week 2: 40
Week 3: 40
Week 4: 40
Week 5: 48
Week 6: 48
Week 7: 40
Week 8: 40
Week 9: 40

It's a 9 week roster and resets week 10. If my maths is right it's 43.5 hours average so deducting 30 minutes break I think. Leaves a 40 hour paid week.

Not my cup of tea and I'm relying on mental maths so maybe I'm wrong.

JazzyJ

ibarelycare wrote: »

What has the response been when you queried why it's different to what you agreed?

OP - I'd go with this course of action. As others have said, if you don't like the response and the company won't revert to what they originally agreed then just quit.

Not great from them though to change the working hours from what you were originally told.

As others have said the hours given by the company do comply with the working hours act - hours are generally averaged over 4 months when considering if they are over 48 hours per week.

Danni21

JazzyJ wrote: »

OP - I'd go with this course of action. As others have said, if you don't like the response and the company won't revert to what they originally agreed then just quit.

Not great from them though to change the working hours from what you were originally told.

As others have said the hours given by the company do comply with the working hours act - hours are generally averaged over 4 months when considering if they are over 48 hours per week.

So seems other colleagues have come in under the guise of "9 to 5" also. A lot of them seem younger and school leavers etc so I guess they won't speak up. One guy actually asked me why do we have to have our contracts. Bless him. Hate to see young people taking advantage of.

I haven't spoken to the company yet as deciding how to tackle it. Finally got my contract last night after several emails. Didn't read through it all, but under Contract hours they've put the following

"You will be required to work 40 hours per week. Your daily working hours shall be in accordance with the agreed Rota, details of which are available from your Manager. You will be expected to be flexible in your working arrangements as the job may require you to work rotating shifts or any other working pattern as agreed"

antix80

Danni21 wrote: »

"You will be required to work 40 hours per week. Your daily working hours shall be in accordance with the agreed Rota, details of which are available from your Manager. You will be expected to be flexible in your working arrangements as the job may require you to work rotating shifts or any other working pattern as agreed"

They're a pack of clowns. Can you name the company?

I'd add a section to the contract specifying your understanding of "as agreed" - "where this contract specifies 'as agreed', it shall be taken to mean the terms agreed with Mrs Whoever at job offer stage prior to commencement of training i.e. Sunday to Thursday. No more than one weekend per month. Company agrees to provide flexibility around exam leave."

(That's all legalese by the way, but no worse than they have written in your contract!)

Look - seems they have a lot of staff on very flexible arrangements. Which means they have plently of flexibility. I've seen people on flexible contracts who never worked weekends just because they stuck their head out and asked or got in with a manager. You might as well at least ask them to match your written contract to what you already agreed. If they say no, well all the more reason to leave.

More than likely even if you got the terms you want the company will be horrible to work for with high staff turnover and poor treatment of staff. I suffered the same in a callcentre previously. They just treated their staff like school kids because the staff just put up with it.

Danni21

antix80 wrote: »

They're a pack of clowns. Can you name the company?

I'd add a section to the contract specifying your understanding of "as agreed" - "where this contract specifies 'as agreed', it shall be taken to mean the terms agreed with Mrs Whoever at job offer stage prior to commencement of training i.e. Sunday to Thursday. No more than one weekend per month. Company agrees to provide flexibility around exam leave."

(That's all legalese by the way, but no worse than they have written in your contract!)

Look - seems they have a lot of staff on very flexible arrangements. Which means they have plently of flexibility. I've seen people on flexible contracts who never worked weekends just because they stuck their head out and asked or got in with a manager. You might as well at least ask them to match your written contract to what you already agreed. If they say no, well all the more reason to leave.

More than likely even if you got the terms you want the company will be horrible to work for with high staff turnover and poor treatment of staff. I suffered the same in a callcentre previously. They just treated their staff like school kids because the staff just put up with it.

Don't know if I should mention company on here? Yeap, we were told we should get paid this week. If not it will be next month. Like wtf. You can't do that.

Going to have a proper read through the contract over the weekend and send them an email. We've already been given the whole speak to your TL speel. I'll be going direct to HR.

943

Unfortunately it is legal... Most shift work or jobs that work on a roster work this way.
I have worked ten days in a row at some points depending on when your two days off are scheduled.. ie Monday and Tuesday off this week, Saturday Sunday off the next week.

It is crap, no doubt, but unless you have a fixed time of work then they can do this.

The payment issue probably depends on when you started... If you are paid monthly then you probably missed the cut off date for payroll and will get paid next month which is normal in monthly paying jobs. If that isn't the case though, that is a red flag saying you 'should' get paid.

I will say, if they hired you under the guise that this wasn't the case then yes they shouldn't have done that. And if you are there under 13 weeks - which you are- then you are not required to give notice.

If you mentioned the evening course on interviewing and they agreed with it then I would definitely bring that up with HR. A lot of companies do this and people just stay quiet so they can keep the job, but that doesn't make it right.


I remember interviewing for one role that I really wanted to do... and on my second day me and the other new hire were told the job was not available and we would be doing something else. The option was to take it or leave. The new role included weekends and the one I applied for was mon-fri. I asked about a weekend I had an event on (as when I took the role I was promised no weekends) and I was told any time off request had to be six weeks in advance so no way could I have it off..... I stayed because I needed the job, missed the event (which was planned for a long time) and it turned out to be the worst place I have ever worked. I left a few months later. These red flags usually show up for a reason, especially so early. They hope people won't care. It is bad.

Danni21

I'm due to start my first official shift after training shortly.

So one of the HR girls came on our Zoom call the other day and I asked the question regarding being flexible and she gave a hell of a speel about how this could be required if we deal with a different client etc. So I re-iterated it back to her saying so this is the only scenario this is required. She then says well no in some cases might be asked to move shifts. Basically dancing around the question.

So I emailed the person that sent my contract.

Hi xxx,

I have a few reservations regarding my contract.

In the paragraph re Contract Hours it states "hours agreed".

I was told before committing to the role that my working week would be Sunday to Thursday (5 days on).

I was also not informed that I need to be flexible around my shifts and willing to change rosters at the request of our managers.

Again, this is not what I was told.

I have other commitments which would work with the "hours agreed" as per my accepting the role, but not with the conflicting information now being proposed.

I look forward to hearing from you,