Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You find it amazing that a politician (a DUP one at that) recoils from something he said?
Sorry, I'd be a little more cynical about that.

As to what the other two 'sitting Unionist politicians' said, it is THERE in the article in quotes:

So Francie, you think that Gavin Robinson is telling lies about the fact that he did not mention a border poll and that the interview was an old one from last year? Which the Irish News decided to misrepresent as breaking news on a no news day?

I cannot see what the other two sitting Unionist politicians said as I do not pay for the Belfast Telegraph. Maybe you could help us and shared the actual quotes you are talking about? - quotes from the politicians please, not from journalists

downcow

Quote:
Originally Posted by downcow
I don’t think a sitting unionist politician has ever or will ever say that we need to discuss a border poll or a United ireland

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Good to see you agree that is rubbish. Of course Unionists are discussing a border poll because they have to, they would be fools not to, as you say.

Francie, show me where Unionists are discussing a border poll and a united Ireland? Publicising the benefits of being in the union and the downsides of leaving it, is a very different thing than discussing a border poll and united Ireland.
But I guess if that's what you refer to as discussing a border poll, then I all the Unionists improve their game at it

Junkyard Tom

That Unionists are so terrified of a border poll shows that they have no real confidence in their 'precious union'.

I personally think Unionists would win a border poll fairly comfortably if it was held soon.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That Unionists are so terrified of a border poll shows that they have no real confidence in their 'precious union'.

I personally think Unionists would win a border poll fairly comfortably if it was held soon.

haha. Tom just sums up the reason why Unionists would be mad to start discussing a border poll. It would just feed his fantasy. He would hang on every word discussed and twist it to suit his dreamy thoughts about a beautiful united Ireland.
Tom you are not on your own - there is a small minority out there who think like you.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

haha. Tom just sums up the reason why Unionists would be mad to start discussing a border poll. It would just feed his fantasy. He would hang on every word discussed and twist it to suit his dreamy thoughts about a beautiful united Ireland.
Tom you are not on your own - there is a small minority out there who think like you.

Surely the only factor Unionists should be concerned about is actually winning a border poll? Why are Unionists so terrified?

downcow

I see we have slipped into second place in Europe, behind England, on what is undoubtedly the most important issue facing every country in the world at this time.
This will be more evidence for some here that Northern Ireland is a failure, and another reason to get out of the UK quick LOL
https://ibb.co/HY37q9j

grayzer75

downcow wrote: »

I see we have slipped into second place in Europe, behind England, on what is undoubtedly the most important issue facing every country in the world at this time.
This will be more evidence for some here that Northern Ireland is a failure, and another reason to get out of the UK quick LOL
https://ibb.co/HY37q9j

I'd say they're probably ahead on second doses administered, I think they're at almost 80% of over 75's have got the second dose which is great to see.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I see we have slipped into second place in Europe, behind England, on what is undoubtedly the most important issue facing every country in the world at this time.
This will be more evidence for some here that Northern Ireland is a failure, and another reason to get out of the UK quick LOL
https://ibb.co/HY37q9j

Hope they are not sending NI the dodgy vaccine with the 50% efficacy! :pac:

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

We don't know the criteria as to how he decides that. Someone posted here that Colin Harvey was an eejit for writing to the SoS asking him what the criteria are for his decision.


Its typical British ambiguity/fudging.


If I was FG, I'd be shouting for a referendum now before a few more 100 year anniversaries are arrived at, because when the period of the foundation of the State is more widely known, FG will not have a leg to stand on. For instance, the argument that the ROI can't afford NI when NI was basically sold off by Cosgrave to clear the national debt and this agreement then buried until 1969.

The argument that the ROI can't afford NI has absolutely nothing to do with historical issues, it is a simple fact of economics and politics.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

The argument that the ROI can't afford NI has absolutely nothing to do with historical issues, it is a simple fact of economics and politics.

One of these self-evident facts that Partitionists are very fond of?

jm08

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That Unionists are so terrified of a border poll shows that they have no real confidence in their 'precious union'.

I personally think Unionists would win a border poll fairly comfortably if it was held soon.

At the bottom of one of those articles linked about, there was a comment from that pollster from Liverpool university who said that at the time of the GFA, 40% of those polled described themselves as unionist. That has now decreased to 28% (I think without checking - in the 20s anyway). That doesn't suggest support for a UI, but it says very clearly that support for maintaining the Union is decreasing.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

The argument that the ROI can't afford NI has absolutely nothing to do with historical issues, it is a simple fact of economics and politics.

You are hoping. If that was the case, why did Cosgrave bury the agreement for 50 years? What was he afraid of? Was it that no one would ever vote for Fine Gael again if they knew that?

Edit: Obviously, the problem that FG has in the event of a UI, is that they know they will never get a nationalist vote from north of the border. They will be finished as a political party unless they can do some sort of a deal with unionists.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

This will be more evidence for some here that Northern Ireland is a failure, and another reason to get out of the UK quick LOL
https://ibb.co/HY37q9j

I'm happy for people in GB and the north of Ireland that they're getting vaccinated.

That said I don't think you understand that the UK is a viewed as a veritable basket case in the world media, with some of the worst COVID19 death rates, as well as the self-inflicted harm of Brexit.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

At the bottom of one of those articles linked about, there was a comment from that pollster from Liverpool university who said that at the time of the GFA, 40% of those polled described themselves as unionist. That has now decreased to 28% (I think without checking - in the 20s anyway). That doesn't suggest support for a UI, but it says very clearly that support for maintaining the Union is decreasing.

I think it reflects the rise Northern Ireland identity - but a scary thought for Republicans

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm happy for people in GB and the north of Ireland that they're getting vaccinated.

That said I don't think you understand that the UK is a viewed as a veritable basket case in the world media, with some of the worst COVID19 death rates, as well as the self-inflicted harm of Brexit.

A few posters on here - I am not sure if you were one of them - some time ago suggested that Northern Ireland would be at the bottom of the pecking order with regard to vaccinations in the UK. That seems to be another Republican fantasy.

You are making a very subjective thing about people across the world thinking the UK is a basket case. The UK is still in the very top, if not the top, of places in the world that young people want to relocate in and/or spend a gap year in. So this is just more Republican fantasy

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I think it reflects the rise Northern Ireland identity - but a scary thought for Republicans

Trust me, when people from a Catholic/Nationalist background catch on to the fact that Unionists, like you, are using the term 'northern Irish' to indicate support for British rule they'll drop it quicker than the Tories did the DUP.

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

You are hoping. If that was the case, why did Cosgrave bury the agreement for 50 years? What was he afraid of? Was it that no one would ever vote for Fine Gael again if they knew that?

Edit: Obviously, the problem that FG has in the event of a UI, is that they know they will never get a nationalist vote from north of the border. They will be finished as a political party unless they can do some sort of a deal with unionists.

I dunno about that, I see more disgust and hatred levied towards FF than I do FG among my nationalist friends.

Whatever about oul wans long memories over John Bruton and VAT on children's shoes, Jack Lynch's lilly-liveredness is still a sore point around Tyrone and South Armagh.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

A few posters on here - I am not sure if you were one of them - some time ago suggested that Northern Ireland would be at the bottom of the pecking order with regard to vaccinations in the UK. That seems to be another Republican fantasy.

You are making a very subjective thing about people across the world thinking the UK is a basket case. The UK is still in the very top, if not the top, of places in the world that young people want to relocate in and/or spend a gap year in. So this is just more Republican fantasy

You talk about the UK as if it was some amorphous blob; that you think gap year students are looking to the UK as a whole is beyond preposterous.

London and Edinburgh perhaps, but I doubt the thoughts of spending a few months in Coleraine or Banbridge is at the top of anyone's thought process when leaving home.

Oooh, the Mall in Armagh is a delight in July! Let's go there.

---

I also fins it fascinating that after nearly a century of mismanagement and sectarianism that you're holding up the rollout of a vaccine as a win!

It wasn't that long ago you were touting your infection rates as a sign of the greatness of the Union.

Julia Hartley-Brewer would blush at some of your posts!

jm08

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I dunno about that, I see more disgust and hatred levied towards FF than I do FG among my nationalist friends.

Whatever about oul wans long memories over John Bruton and VAT on children's shoes, Jack Lynch's lilly-liveredness is still a sore point around Tyrone and South Armagh.

Thats because its a more recent betrayal. The 100th anniversary is going to dredge up an awful lot of stuff from the time of partition in how Northern Ireland actually came about and the forefather's of Fine Gael's part in it. Using the 'I'm alright Jack' economic argument that was achieved on the back of the nationalist community partitioned into NI will not be a runner.

Rodin

NI needs to get their vaccines on the go because their 'policy' on Covid has been a disaster.
The number of cases, hospitalisations and deaths has been shameful for months. Approximately 75% more people per head of population have died in north vs south. The decision to not row in with the south on an all Island approach has led to many unnecessary deaths.

It's only of late that the south has caught up.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Trust me, when people from a Catholic/Nationalist background catch on to the fact that Unionists, like you, are using the term 'northern Irish' to indicate support for British rule they'll drop it quicker than the Tories did the DUP.

........ again, that is not even close to what I said. In fact I did not even in what Northern Irish indicated.
But now that you raise it, I believe it indicates a growing number of people who are very comfortable not being referred to as either Irish or British, and if they hold to those identities then they come in second place to the Northern Irishness.

saabsaab

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I dunno about that, I see more disgust and hatred levied towards FF than I do FG among my nationalist friends.

Whatever about oul wans long memories over John Bruton and VAT on children's shoes, Jack Lynch's lilly-liveredness is still a sore point around Tyrone and South Armagh.

It looked like that at the time, In fact an Army unit did cross the border but were lost. How would it have worked out?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

........ again, that is not even close to what I said. In fact I did not even in what Northern Irish indicated.
But now that you raise it, I believe it indicates a growing number of people who are very comfortable not being referred to as either Irish or British, and if they hold to those identities then they come in second place to the Northern Irishness.

So, in other words its a compromised 'identity' that people can live with. Great.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

So, in other words its a compromised 'identity' that people can live with. Great.

It is a complex identity that people love and love to be associated with. You are trying to paint it as some sort of second-best. People have the choice in Northern Ireland, and more and more are choosing Northern Irish.
Whilst we have loads in common with our neighbours both in GB and ROI, our separateness, particularly from ROI has led to us developing as a place apart. Whatever people's background in Northern Ireland, we have a very strong shared experience. People are more and more realising that and treasuring it

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

if they hold to those identities then they come in second place to the Northern Irishness.

I'd say the majority of people who self-identify as 'northern Irish' would be insulted if you attempted to subordinate their Irishness to that of people a few kilometres down the road.

What we'll see in the coming years is greater numbers of young outward-looking, pro-EU Unionists self-identifying as Irish, or northern Irish, in an attempt to distance themselves from the shit-show in Britain.

Junkyard Tom

I'd imagine Belfast will get sailings in a few months time when the north's economy reorients itself.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So Francie, you think that Gavin Robinson is telling lies about the fact that he did not mention a border poll

Quite possibly, yes.

and that the interview was an old one from last year? Which the Irish News decided to misrepresent as breaking news on a no news day?

Why would it happenig last year make a difference? A border poll is relevant since Brexit.

I cannot see what the other two sitting Unionist politicians said as I do not pay for the Belfast Telegraph. Maybe you could help us and shared the actual quotes you are talking about? - quotes from the politicians please, not from journalists

You can see the quote I posted, where Lockhart talks about what Robinson said. It's in 'quotes'.

I asked you to tip us off whenever the two politicians deny they said it.

The Telegraph are quoting stuff people never said now too???? :D:D

Rodin

A Robinson telling lies?

Never...

Rodin

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'd imagine Belfast will get sailings in a few months time when the north's economy reorients itself.

They'll soon realise what side their bread is buttered.

FrancieBrady

In a poll about being Irish or British, which way would somebody who identifies as 'Northern Irish' jump....hmmmmm.