Live Exports Being Shipped from Cork to Libya 29/07/2020

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

The Islamic tradition of slaughtering animals also occurs in Irish slaughterhouses. (Used to up to 10-15 years ago anyway) Any major slaughterhouse will have two boxes - one for ordinary use i.e stun and one for use with halal orders.

With halal orders, non-believers are completely exempt from touching the cattle with their bare hands once slaughtered. Greater levels of glove/ mask use and inspection.

The person doing the slaughtering must also be a Muslim who comes from outside. No stunning - there's a mechanism in the second box which moves the head into position to be slaughtered by blade. It's an extremely disturbing thing to witness.

Sorry if I'm overly graphic.

Well that's certainly not the case anymore as it would breach EU Regulations.

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Well that's certainly not the case anymore as it would breach EU Regulations.

That must be a recent change because it was happening in this country up to 10-15 years ago with the explicit OK of our government. Government officials are ever-present in slaughterhouses.

Anyway, that's the outcome the 2,000 bulls face in Libya.

LawBoy2018

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you went to the average dairy farmer and told him that you wanted a newborn friesian bull calf, he would probably pay you to take it from him.



Just think about that for a minute. The costs for rearing the animal also include the extra food etc. given to it's mother before it's birth. Then, after spending that money, after it is born, you would still pay to have it taken off your hands.

I suppose it's a 50/50 chance whether or not it'll be a bull calf + then the farmer has a 9 or 10 month supply of milk. It's a grotesque industry really, but that's life it seems!

Atlantic Dawn

The animals should have been euthanized at birth if we had no use for them, the carbon emissions from farming is sickening.

LawBoy2018

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The animals should have been euthanized at birth if we had no use for them, the carbon emissions from farming is sickening.

Euthanizing perfectly healthy newborn calves because of their carbon emissions is far more sickening, imo. What a bleak outlook of the world you must have.

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Well that's certainly not the case anymore as it would breach EU Regulations.

You might want to check the actual regulations out based on this. First article on google.

https://gript.ie/should-halal-be-banned/

I'm assuming the method I viewed was "not cruel" based on the regulation and also is allowed on the "religious exemption" section.

It is cruel and it's not in anyway humane. Once the slaughter is completed, the box is opened to dump the bull/cow on the ground. They nearly always manage to get back to their feet before bleeding out. The noise they make is unreal, as you can imagine with their airways cut, while they try to get out of the place.

Again, sorry to be so graphic but it's pretty clear that most people don't understand this method, what it entails, and whether it occurs in the factory up the road.

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

You might want to check the actual regulations out based on this. First article on google.

https://gript.ie/should-halal-be-banned/

I'm assuming the method I viewed was "not cruel" based on the regulation and also is allowed on the "religious exemption" section.

It is cruel and it's not in anyway humane. Once the slaughter is completed, the box is opened to dump the bull/cow on the ground. They nearly always manage to get back to their feet before bleeding out. The noise they make is unreal, as you can imagine with their airways cut, while they try to get out of the place.

Again, sorry to be so graphic but it's pretty clear that most people don't understand this method, what it entails, and whether it occurs in the factory up the road.

What's your agenda here? This practice doesn't happen in Irish factories, end of. To imply otherwise is simply untrue.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I suppose it's a 50/50 chance whether or not it'll be a bull calf + then the farmer has a 9 or 10 month supply of milk. It's a grotesque industry really, but that's life it seems!

No it's not a grotesque industry.



What is grotesque is that the middlemen and supermarkets use their power to squeeze the producer.


A farmer is getting paid the same for a litre of milk in 2020 as he was in 1980. Is the consumer paying the same in 2020 as they paid in 1980? They are in their bollix. And that ignores that most of the improvements in terms of technology and efficiencies of scale have been made in the processor and grocery parts of the chain. If you had enough land to feed 50 cows in 1980, well you're not going to be able to feed 500 on that land now. But the processors can have easily scaled up with technology.

LawBoy2018

Donald Trump wrote: »

No it's not a grotesque industry.



What is grotesque is that the middlemen and supermarkets use their power to squeeze the producer.


A farmer is getting paid the same for a litre of milk in 2020 as he was in 1980. Is the consumer paying the same in 2020 as they paid in 1980? They are in their bollix. And that ignores that most of the improvements in terms of technology and efficiencies of scale have been made in the processor and grocery parts of the chain. If you had enough land to feed 50 cows in 1980, well you're not going to be able to feed 500 on that land now. But the processors can have easily scaled up with technology.

Why is milk so cheap? Is it simply due to too much supply?

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

What's your agenda here? This practice doesn't happen in Irish factories, end of. To imply otherwise is simply untrue.

You're the one who asked the forum about the likely future of the 2,000 bulls heading to Libya. I'm giving you the answer based on Islamic slaughtering tradition.

I'm telling you from a position of authority given I've witnessed this tradition many times in Irish slaughterhouses. I've witnessed this up to circa. 2008. And I've pointed out an article that suggests it is still legal under EU Law.

Now if it makes you feel better, you can bury your head in the sand and accuse people of having some secret agenda. But you really shouldn't write into the forum and ask for information if you aren't going to like the answer.

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

You're the one who asked the forum about the likely future of the 2,000 bulls heading to Libya. I'm giving you the answer based on Islamic slaughtering tradition.

I'm telling you from a position of authority given I've witnessed this tradition many times in Irish slaughterhouses. I've witnessed this up to circa. 2008. And I've pointed out an article that suggests it is still legal under EU Law.

Now if it makes you feel better, you can bury your head in the sand and accuse people of having some secret agenda. But you really shouldn't write into the forum and ask for information if you aren't going to like the answer.

We're discussing the practice of live exports here, not how Muslims prepare their beef. We have established that the fact that the majority of the countries outside the EU in which Ireland exports livestock slaughter said animals in accordance with their religious beliefs. Whether you agree with that or not, there's no point in droning on with graphic language as to how/why they conduct such practices.

The article you cited was published by Gript, hardly the most reputable of sources. I'm from Mayo and live less than 15km from a Halal factory so you can spare me your patronising hearsay.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Why is milk so cheap? Is it simply due to too much supply?

Almost all farmed produced is cheap. It is cheap because the people who have most power in the system are able to force the prices down while still keeping a decent margin for themselves. This is how the system works for milk which is actually the most viable farming enterprise (I am not making this up). Saturday will start August. You will feed and take care of, and milk your cows throughout August. You will have reared those animals for a number of years. You can't suddenly switch on or off having more cows. So you milk them and then a lorry comes, usually every 2 days and removes that milk to a processor. Then, say around 15th September after your August milk is long delivered, processed and consumed, the processor will inform you what they will pay you for that August milk.




For a tonne of wheat which would be the main ingredient used to produce about 1700 loaves of bread, the producer will be paid about 180 Euro.




Yet Larry Goodman is worth about 2.5bn

LawBoy2018

Donald Trump wrote: »

Almost all farmed produced is cheap. It is cheap because the people who have most power in the system are able to force the prices down while still keeping a decent margin for themselves.


For a tonne of wheat which would be the main ingredient used to produce about 1700 loaves of bread, the producer will be paid about 180 Euro.


Yet Larry Goodman is worth about 2.5bn

If that's the case, then why don't farmers cut off supply? Would that not be an abuse of his dominant poition, breaching EU Competition Laws?

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

If that's the case, then why don't farmers cut off supply? Would that not be an abuse of his dominant poition, breaching EU Competition Laws?

Grain prices are influenced by global markets. As are other agricultural commodities. But not all countries have the same costs as here. However it is not as easy as just thinking that "sure why not just import everything then".

You cannot cut off supply. You grow what you can and hope for the best. What is a single individual going to do with 1000 tonnes of wheat? Make 1.7m loaves of break with it? It grows, you have to cut it. Then you have to sell it or store it.

If you would like to buy 100 acres in Ireland to increase the number of cattle you can rear, you will want to have at least 1m Euro to purchase reasonably good land. If you are in Brazil and want to have an extra 1000 acres to rear more cattle, you need the price of a box of matches.......

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

We're discussing the practice of live exports here, not how Muslims prepare their beef. We have established that the fact that the majority of the countries outside the EU in which Ireland exports livestock slaughter said animals in accordance with their religious beliefs. Whether you agree with that or not, there's no point in droning on with graphic language as to how/why they conduct such practices.

The article you cited was published by Gript, hardly the most reputable of sources. I'm from Mayo and live less than 15km from a Halal factory so you can spare me your patronising hearsay.

You linked an Instagram post which asked what people thought the outcome of the 2,000 bulls would be. And you specifically asked our thoughts on that and the live cattle trade. I've given my answer.

If you have evidence the Gript article is wrong, point it out. Simply calling things not reputable is not really an argument. You're the self-described "LawBoy" - how about reading the law and telling us why they are wrong?

Saying things like "End Of" without actually given evidence in a debate is also pretty childish.

So you live 15km from a Halal factory but also say that Halal slaughter does not occur in Ireland? Have you actually ever being inside a slaughterhouse?

You need to wake up to reality. If you're really worried about animal cruelty, you need to open your eyes. From this conversation though, it's seems you are not really that worried about it. It's like a fad phase for you to virtue signal about.

And, that's fine also. But don't expect anyone to take you serious about the issue.

Irishman80

Here's another article for you LawBoy. From 2015 - and it also lists the religious exemption i.e Halal slaughter.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/halal-non-stunning-of-cattle-pre-slaughter-is-a-contentious-issue-says-vet/

Take your head out of the sand.

Like really think about this: you can't read the law even though you are seemingly a LawBoy, you live15km from a Halal factory but argue Halal slaughter doesn't happen in this country, and you post links where you seem worried a cow is being whistled at while completely ignoring and avoiding the actual severe cruelty involved in the Halal method of slaughter.

But, according to you, I've the agenda.

Overheal

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

We're discussing the practice of live exports here, not how Muslims prepare their beef. We have established that the fact that the majority of the countries outside the EU in which Ireland exports livestock slaughter said animals in accordance with their religious beliefs. Whether you agree with that or not, there's no point in droning on with graphic language as to how/why they conduct such practices.

The article you cited was published by Gript, hardly the most reputable of sources. I'm from Mayo and live less than 15km from a Halal factory so you can spare me your patronising hearsay.

He wasn't droning he was just contributing. Pretty informative (and random) thread I must say. Had seen a debate about Halal last year in another forum, people were upset Brennan's Bread was Halal certified.

He did apologize for being graphic, but it is informative to the thread. Also graphic is sharing videos conveying alleged animal abuse so that seems a bit unfair to level against Irishman80. I understand from your post #29 that you have your own agenda against Halal (that's your prerogative) - if I may you were both cordial to one another until he wrote about some specifics of the practice, at which point you accused him of having an agenda, which is unfair to say of someone just adding some detail to a conversation.

The only thing I'm seeing about EU law is non-stunned Halal meat can't be marketed as Organic as of a 2019 ruling: https://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu-court-rules-non-stunned-halal-and-kosher-meat-cant-be-marketed-as-organic-37857260.html which doesn't suggest to me the practice is prohibited, and the 1935 Slaughter of Animals Act has an exception for Muslims, colloquially termed as Mohommadans (those people that believe in Mohommad, of course!) in the law:

15.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, no person shall in a slaughter-house, slaughter or render unconscious for the purpose of slaughter an animal of any particular kind by any means or in any manner otherwise than by means of an instrument which is an approved instrument in relation to animals of that particular kind and is in good working order and is used in the approved manner.

(2) Nothing in this section shall apply to or render unlawful—

(a) the slaughter of any animal for consumption as food by Jews, where such slaughter is carried out according to the Jewish method by a Jew who is for the time being approved in that behalf by the Chief Rabbi of the Irish Free State for the time being or in his absence by the Board of Shechita of the Jewish Community of Dublin,

or

(b) the slaughter of any animal for consumption as food by Mahommedans, where such slaughter is carried out according to the Mahommedan method by a Mahommedan, or

(c) the slaughter of any animal by any means in the course of an inquiry, investigation, or experiment made by direction of the Minister for Agriculture under this Part of this Act.

So I mean, tl;dr it happens...

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

You linked an Instagram post which asked what people thought the outcome of the 2,000 bulls would be. And you specifically asked our thoughts on that and the live cattle trade. I've given my answer.

If you have evidence the Gript article is wrong, point it out. Simply calling things not reputable is not really an argument. You're the self-described "LawBoy" - how about reading the law and telling us why they are wrong?

Saying things like "End Of" without actually given evidence in a debate is also pretty childish.

So you live 15km from a Halal factory but also say that Halal slaughter does not occur in Ireland? Have you actually ever being inside a slaughterhouse?

You need to wake up to reality. If you're really worried about animal cruelty, you need to open your eyes. From this conversation though, it's seems you are not really that worried about it. It's like a fad phase for you to virtue signal about.

And, that's fine also. But don't expect anyone to take you serious about the issue.

My original post contained an instagram post that I stumbled upon earlier today which depcited livestock being prepared to be exported to Libya. My original question was; "How do people feel about this and live exports in general?". I never asked anyone about what they thought the outcome of said calves would be, as I was/am fully aware of what happens to them abroad. I did, however, ask the well-informed poster who I was conversing with earlier in the thread what would happen to the Friesian calves if live exports were to be abolished.

In relation to Gript and the article you cited, the reason why I implied that 'Gript' as an organisation is not reputable, especially when it comes to discussions regarding other religions, is becuase it's ran by far-right catholics who get some sort of perverse kick out of piling onto anyone with different beliefs to theirs. Obviously, any article they write about halal meat will be more biased than your regular MSM.

My use of the phrase "end of" wasn't intended to insult you, it was intended to indicate to you that I had absolutely 0 interest in discussing the intricacies/gorey details of halal meat production with someone who I suspected had alterior motives, yet here we are.

Yes, I live approximately 15kms from a meat factory that produces 'halal' meat. They don't prepare it in the traditional way you described earlier, they stun the animals beforehand. I have never been in a slaughterhouse but many of my friends would have worked in said factory during their summer holidays (a grim existence).

Hahah I'm laughing + cringing at the same time when you say 'lawboy', it's like when someone makes a gammy email address back in the day and it comes back to haunt them...

The legal position is definitely quite murky when it comes to Halal meat. The legal position within the EU is that animals should be stunned before their slaughtered to facilitate as little suffereing as possible, however, MS can may allow derogations for ritual slaughter. - The Council of Europe’s Convention for the Protection of Animals for Slaughter and the European Union’s Council Regulation 1099/2009.

After quite a bit of routing though, I did find this...

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/foodsafetyconsumerissues/meathygiene/tradernotices/2014/AnimalWelfareSOPTN090414.pdf

Article 3 sets out the procedure to be used by the halal slaughterhouses!

I hold my hands up, you're right! Very disturbing indeed.

Irishman80

Overheal wrote: »

So I mean, tl;dr it happens...

It's a absolute win for animal rights activists who really want to change societies viewpoint on animal slaughter.

In slaughter with stunning, I've witnessed cattle in the chute on the way from the pens. Once they get to about 10 from the box, you can see the fear in their eyes. It's unmistakable. Often, electric prods are used to prod them up the chute.

In Halal slaughter, it's much worse. They can hear the noise of dying cattle just metres away. To witness it is shocking. If people think my explanations are graphic, they will not want to witness it.

If Irish animal rights activists managed to secretly record these things from an Irish site, the Irish population would be shocked.

Overheal

Aye that's fair enough. And by not certifying it organic you're limiting the number of people mentioned earlier who will pick it out in the shop because it 'sounds healthier.'

Danzy

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Of course the Libyans do, but it would be naive to think that supply chains/employment in Libya are a concern of our Government. It's Irish farmers who are exporting Irish livestock from Irish docks, obviously that is something that does concern the Irish Government.

You need to let the Libyans know that you know exactly what they do and do not need.

You have all the answers.

Irishman80

LawBoy, I think we are probably looking at the issue from the same standpoint of worry from a animal cruelty perspective. I was just giving my experience on the slaughtering of animals process. It's not an easy thing to witness. I haven't been in a slaughterhouse for 12 years but still remember it vividly.

On the Live Cattle trade, there was huge debate on this issue 15-20 years ago too. I remember management of factories actually telling security to be extra vigilant of animal right activists trying to gain access to the factories. If people were shocked, and they were, about the Live Cattle images, the uproar about the Slaughterhouses would have been another level.

I remember watching the reporting on TV and thinking to myself - "My God, if they think that's bad, wait until they get access to slaughterhouse"

LawBoy2018

Danzy wrote: »

You need to let the Libyans know that you know exactly what they do and do not need.

You have all the answers.

On it!!!

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

LawBoy, I think we are probably looking at the issue from the same standpoint of worry from a animal cruelty perspective. I was just giving my experience on the slaughtering of animals process. It's not an easy thing to witness. I haven't been in a slaughterhouse for 12 years but still remember it vividly.

On the Live Cattle trade, there was huge debate on this issue 15-20 years ago too. I remember management of factories actually telling security to be extra vigilant of animal right activists trying to gain access to the factories. If people were shocked, and they were, about the Live Cattle images, the uproar about the Slaughterhouses would have been another level.

I remember watching the reporting on TV and thinking to myself - "My God, if they think that's bad, wait until they get access to slaughterhouse"

Absolutely. The Greens had originally hoped to ban live exports but FG weren't having it when it came to negotiating the PFG.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/greens-give-way-on-live-exports-and-the-nitrates-derogation-39288194.html

Jeez, I can only imagine! It wouldn't be for the faint hearted. It would be a very difficult matter to approach maturely, though. The far-right would probably make it predominantly a religion/immigration issue like they did with the direct provision centre in Oughterard.

If activists were to do what you said though, the uproar would be unprecedented imo.

Danzy

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Absolutely. The Greens had originally hoped to ban live exports but FG weren't having it when it came to negotiating the PFG.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/greens-give-way-on-live-exports-and-the-nitrates-derogation-39288194.html

Jeez, I can only imagine! It wouldn't be for the faint hearted. It would be a very difficult matter to approach maturely, though. The far-right would probably make it predominantly a religion/immigration issue like they did with the direct provision centre in Oughterard.

If activists were to do what you said though, the uproar would be unprecedented imo.

The far right are involved now?

Lol.

LawBoy2018

Danzy wrote: »

The far right are involved now?

Lol.

Not in the habit of reading, are you m8?

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Absolutely. The Greens had originally hoped to ban live exports but FG weren't having it when it came to negotiating the PFG.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/greens-give-way-on-live-exports-and-the-nitrates-derogation-39288194.html

Jeez, I can only imagine! It wouldn't be for the faint hearted. It would be a very difficult matter to approach maturely, though. The far-right would probably make it predominantly a religion/immigration issue like they did with the direct provision centre in Oughterard.

If activists were to do what you said though, the uproar would be unprecedented imo.

The animal rights activists would face huge backlash. It would come from the huge Farmer, Beef and Agri Food, and religious lobbies. They'd have very little political support. The far-right would be the least of their worries in this country.

I'm sure some of them have considered this strategy before but the backlash would be immense. They'd gain quite a bit of support amongst ordinary, everyday people though.

Bass Reeves

It is interesting that in this modern time we are now having issue with what were rules bough in for food hygiene/safety reason. There are huge similarities between Halal and Kosher food rules. So what were they bought in. If you look at he list of proscribed(unclean) food sources pork, birds of prey, fish eating birds, shellfish and crustaceans are all banned. In hot countries these food type have a much higher risk of giving food poisoning than kosher/halal food sources.

So why would Halal and Kosher both advocate the same type of slaughter, it is not just the cutting of the throat, it is the method it is done by. Both religion's proscribe the same method cutting
From islamic law
This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well-sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, trachea, and jugular veins

From Jewish Law
the animal be killed by a single cut across the throat to a precise depth, severing both carotid arteries, both jugular veins, both vagus nerves, the trachea and the esophagus, no higher than the epiglottis and no lower than where cilia begin inside the trachea, causing the animal to bleed to death


It is easy to see with proscribing certain animal, bird and fish types along with dead or carrion animals that these laws safe guarded the way food was produced. In a time when the risk of food poisioning was high especially in warm countries it removed a huge health threat.

O I forgot the consumption of Bat's is forbidden as well interesting that.