Live Exports Being Shipped from Cork to Libya 29/07/2020

LawBoy2018

I randomly stumbled upon an instagram post of an animal rights activist who uploaded several pictures/videos of cattle being loaded upon a ship down in Cork. This is what she said in the caption:

"At Cork Port 2000 Irish bulls, mostly weanlings are forced onto a ship that will travel the sea for around 9 days if all goes exactly to plan to Libya and if they don't die along the way.⁣
⁣
Regulation to protect them is lacking and they did not even follow that with at least 2 men shown to use a stick to hit them while shouting and whistled at them. I was once told by a farmer that whistling is terrifying for them. Also no masks worn and no ppe which is required for that area. One of the workers in the area did not agree with live exports but had to do his job and we learned that it has been even worse before with a cow trying to escape and jumped over the ramp. Other activists informed me Cork is one of the worst they've seen.⁣
⁣
These individuals looked at me trying to understand what is happening to them and full of fear. What do you think will happen to them when they get to Libya?"

How do people feel about this and live exports in general?

The post on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDPRybrJyec/

Alrigghtythen

Theres massive foot insecurity and shortages in Libya. While live exports may not be great, stopping people on the brink of famine from getting food doesnt seen too ethical.

LawBoy2018

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Theres massive foot insecurity and shortages in Libya. While live exports may not be great, stopping people on the brink of famine from getting food doesnt seen too ethical.

There's definitely an issue re food security but to say that they're on the brink of famine is a stretch. If that were the case, then wouldn't it be more efficient to simply export the meat, rather than live animals?

Alrigghtythen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

There's definitely an issue re food security but to say that they're on the brink of famine is a stretch. If that were the case, then wouldn't it be more efficient to simply export the meat, rather than live animals?

It's not that much of a stretch. If we simply exported the meat, we'd be taking jobs from them. Then theyd be poorer and more reliant on handouts.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/famine-on-the-rise-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-1.859239

whisky_galore

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

There's definitely an issue re food security but to say that they're on the brink of famine is a stretch. If that were the case, then wouldn't it be more efficient to simply export the meat, rather than live animals?

Is there even the capacity here to process, pack, freeze and ship that much meat in a short time frame? Bear in mind it would all have to be slaughtered halal and there are only a handful of places do that here.

LawBoy2018

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

It's not that much of a stretch. If we simply exported the meat, we'd be taking jobs from them. Then theyd be poorer and more reliant on handouts.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/famine-on-the-rise-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-1.859239

It's hardly our responsibility to create/maintain jobs for people in Libya. The Irish Government are letting asylum seekers starve and rationing their water supply. Do you really think they give a damn about the levels of enployment in Libya? lol. Profit is the obvious driving force for live exports from an Irish perspective.

Alrigghtythen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

It's hardly our responsibility to create/maintain jobs for people in Libya. The Irish Government are letting asylum seekers starve and rationing their water supply. Do you really think they give a damn about the levels of enployment in Libya? lol. Profit is the obvious driving force for live exports from an Irish perspective.

No but Libyans do. Do you think they dont care about jobs or food? Not everything revolves around the irish Gov

Atlantic Dawn

It's a big of a shed looking ship alright, 40 years old and registered in Panama...



https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:4007921/mmsi:352548000/imo:7808463/vessel:SARAH

LawBoy2018

whisky_galore wrote: »

Is there even the capacity here to process, pack, freeze and ship that much meat in a short time frame? Bear in mind it would all have to be slaughtered halal and there are only a handful of places do that here.

35,302 cattle were slaughtered during the week of 13 July, surely factoriers could facilitate slaughtering a mere 2000 more?

https://www.agriland.ie/factory-prices/weekly-kill-figures/

whisky_galore

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

35,302 cattle were slaughtered during the week of 13 July, surely factoriers could facilitate slaughtering a mere 2000 more?

https://www.agriland.ie/factory-prices/weekly-kill-figures/

Still adds to the cost though.
Do they even have freezers on the other side to take 2000 frozen carcasses at once?

LawBoy2018

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

No but Libyans do. Do you think they dont care about jobs or food? Not everything revolves around the irish Gov

Of course the Libyans do, but it would be naive to think that supply chains/employment in Libya are a concern of our Government. It's Irish farmers who are exporting Irish livestock from Irish docks, obviously that is something that does concern the Irish Government.

Alrigghtythen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Of course the Libyans do, but it would be naive to think that supply chains/employment in Libya are a concern of our Government. It's Irish farmers who are exporting Irish livestock from Irish docks, obviously that is something that does concern the Irish Government.

Covid outbreaks in meat factories at the moment perhaps wouldn't be the best time to demand they increase output for the Liberian market.

LawBoy2018

whisky_galore wrote: »

Still adds to the cost though.
Do they even have freezers on the other side to take 2000 frozen carcasses at once?

So you think it would cost more for the meat to be exported, rather than a herd of 2000 cattle being transported 3000km+ via ship?

LawBoy2018

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Covid outbreaks in meat factories at the moment perhaps wouldn't be the best time to demand they increase output for the Liberian market.

Perhaps you're right, but we have been exporting live animals to Libya since 2013.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-we-must-stop-sending-irish-animals-to-lybia-where-they-face-a-cruel-death-4404835-Jan2019/

whisky_galore

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

So you think it would cost more for the meat to be exported, rather than a herd of 2000 cattle being transported 3000km+ via ship?

Any labour you put into something obviously costs more. Cattle don't magically carve themselves up.

LawBoy2018

whisky_galore wrote: »

Any labour you put into something obviously costs more.

Obviously, but do you think there would be more costs associated with slaughtering an animal, or transporting it almost 3500km across the sea for 8/9 days?

Alrigghtythen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Obviously, but do you think there would be more costs associated with slaughtering an animal, or transporting it almost 3500km across the sea for 8/9 days?

You still have to transport the meat either chilled or frozen & Higher labour costs here would increase the price.

LawBoy2018

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

You still have to transport the meat either chilled or frozen & Higher labour costs here would increase the price.

I'd love to get a breakdown of the figures, you hardly know where I could find them? The industry as a whole is allegedly worth circa 3 billion to Irish farmers.

https://www.ifa.ie/live-export-trade-vital-for-our-e3bn-livestock-sector/

Alrigghtythen

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I'd love to get a breakdown of the figures, you hardly know where I could find them? The industry as a whole is allegedly worth circa 3 billion to Irish farmers.

https://www.ifa.ie/live-export-trade-vital-for-our-e3bn-livestock-sector/

Here's some info
https://www.bordbia.ie/farmers-growers/prices-markets/cattle-trade-prices/live-cattle-exports/

whisky_galore

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Obviously, but do you think there would be more costs associated with slaughtering an animal, or transporting it almost 3500km across the sea for 8/9 days?

That ship is probably flying under a flag of convenience with a crew paid absolute peanuts as opposed to wrapping it, keeping it under refrigeration and sticking it in the holds of cargo planes. Couldn't get much cheaper.

Bass Reeves

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

35,302 cattle were slaughtered during the week of 13 July, surely factoriers could facilitate slaughtering a mere 2000 more?

https://www.agriland.ie/factory-prices/weekly-kill-figures/

Most of these are cattle will be fed to finish in Libya. However the reason they are exported lives is that they fetch more to be exported live than farmer are willing to pay for them. You might ask why. It because the price Irish factories are paying for beef makes it uneconomical to finish the amount of Cattle we produce in Ireland.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056528048/1

I have attached a thread that tracks beef prices in Ireland. It was started over 9 years ago. The the base price was 4.05/kg and rising today it's 3.75 and we are in the doldrums, a months ago it was 3.6/kg, To.put it into context a bullock will make about 150 euro or over 20% less than 9 years ago in a. Irish factory. In that time the ration he is fed is gone up 50/ton or about 25%, and all other inputs from electricity, telephone, fertlizer, oil, machinery, maintenance, have all gone up, EU payments have reduced by about 20% in thst time and will drop another 7-10% over the next 6-8 years.

But the prime beef prices is only part of the equation. Over the last 10 years specification that these cattle have to meet have risen. For instance up to 5 year's ago the 18 month Friesian bulls that are exported would have been finished as bulls and achieved about the prime beef price base. At present if a farmer finished these cattle as bulls he receive a price 20-40c/kg below the present prime beef base price.


So that Friesian bull if finished in Ireland and sold to an Irish beef processor would make 250-300 euro less than 10 years ago. 10 years ago a farmer could have fed that bull to until 30 months of age, for the last 4-5years if he goes over 24 months he is treated as a stock bull and will be another 60-80c/kg below the present bull price. That means you have a shorter timeframe to finish these bulls this effects the ability of farmers to finish these cattle and add more cost into the system.

So 10 years ago I could have finished one of those bulls at 400kgs+ carcass weight and he make 1650+euro and my costs would be 50-100/head less, today he have to be sent to the factory 2-3 months sooner and at maybe below 350 carcasse weight be lucky to make 1150 euro.

And inside in the supermarket beef is making 25 euro/kg more than 10years ago.

LawBoy2018

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Most of these are cattle will be fed to finish in Libya. However the reason they are exported lives is that they fetch more to be exported live than farmer are willing to pay for them. You might ask why. It because the price Irish factories are paying for beef makes it uneconomical to finish the amount of CA take we produce in Ireland.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056528048/1

I have attached a thread that tracks beef prices in Ireland. It was started over 9 years ago. The the base price was 4.05/kg and rising today it's 3.75 and we are in the doldrums, a months ago it was 3.6/kg, To.put it into context a bullock will make about 150 euro or over 20% less than 9 years ago in a. Irish factory. On that time the ration he is fed is gone up 50/ton or about 25%, and all other inputs from electricity, telephone, fertlizer, oil, machinery, maintenance, have all gone up, EU payments have reduced by about 20% in puts time and will drop another 7-10% over the next 6-8 years.

But the prime beef prices is only part of the equation. Over the last 10 years specification that these cattle have to meet have risen. Fir instance up to 5 year's ago the 18 month Friesian bulls that are exported would have been finished as bulls and achieved about the prime beef price base. At present if a farmer finished these cattle as bulls he receive a price 20-40c/kg below the present prime beef base price.


So that Friesian bull if finished in Ireland and sold to an Irish beef processor would make 250-300 euro less than 10 years ago. 10 years ago a farmer could have fed that bull to until 30 months of age, for the last 4-5years if he goes over 24 months he is treated as a stock bull and will be another 60-80c/kg below the present bull price. That means you have a shorter timeframe to finish these bulls this effects the ability of farmers to finish these cattle and add more cost into the system.

So 10 years ago I could have finished one of those bills at 400kgs+ carcass weight and he make 1650+euro and my costs would be 50-100/head less, today he have to be sent to the factory 2-3 months sooner and at maybe below 350 carcasse weight be lucky to make 1150 euro.

And inside in the supermarket beef is making 25 euro/kg more than 10years ago.

That post is extremely informative, thank you very much for taking the time to explain all of that to me.

What would happen to these friesian bulls if live exports were abolished? Would they just be killed because they cost too much to raise in comparison to what they'd be worth at the factory?

In 2019, 7899/235154 (3.35%) of live exports were sent to countries outside of the EU. If total revenue from 2019 was 3 billion, then maybe 3.35% (€100,500,000) would be a fair compromise if it meant that the animals weren't being sent to countries outside the EU?

I'm not a farmer so my view is irrelevant, but do you think the pros of live exports outweigh the ethical cons?

Bass Reeves

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

That post is extremely informative, thank you very much for taking the time to explain all of that to me.

What would happen to these friesian bulls if live exports were abolished? Would they just be killed because they cost too much to raise in comparison to what they'd be worth at the factory?

In 2019, 7899/235154 (3.35%) of live exports were sent to countries outside of the EU. If total revenue from 2019 was 3 billion, then maybe 3.35% (€100,500,000) would be a fair compromise if it meant that the animals weren't being sent to countries outside the EU?

I'm not a farmer so my view is irrelevant, but do you think the pros of live exports outweigh the ethical cons?

At present there is an exit from beef production. A lot of fulltime beef farmers on better land are moving over to dairying. Therefore there will be more Friesians calves produced. Tillage farmers are also moving over to dairying. While rations prices have increased by 20% grain prices have remained static moved +/-5% of 2010 prices. Again these people are being squeezes out of business.

It is interesting that when these bulls go to Libya they will be finished on rations. These rations will be mainly produced from Maize, Soya and Palm Kernel. The expansion of production of these using GM technology and by deforestation if South American rainforest's.

However back to the Friesian bulls, it is not just Friesians bulls that are under pressure, due to pressure on beef prices, dairy farmers are using beef bulls( not all cows are put incalf to Friesians) with poor beef traits so that cows calve easier and this increases dairy profitability. These lower quality cattle are under prices pressure as well.

As beef farmers further destock, as dairy farmer that have beef enterprise's reduce or exit from them it is hard to see where all the calves that are going to beef will be reared. There is a large number of them exported to the Continent at present. If the live export trade disappears it hard to see where all these calves will go.

I think last year 250k+ calves and weanlings were exported.

mikeym

If a cow is too stressed before slaughter wont the meat be too tough.

Isnt it better for the animal to be relaxed before slaughter.

I eat meat but I despise live cattle exports.

LawBoy2018

Bass Reeves wrote: »

At present there is an exit from beef production. A lot of fulltime beef farmers on better land are moving over to dairying. Therefore there will be more Friesians calves produced. Tillage farmers are also moving over to dairying. While rations prices have increased by 20% grain prices have remained static moved +/-5% of 2010 prices. Again these people are being squeezes out of business.

It is interesting that when these bulls go to Libya they will be finished on rations. These rations will be mainly produced from Maize, Soya and Palm Kernel. The expansion of production of these using GM technology and by deforestation if South American rainforest's.

However back to the Friesian bulls, it is not just Friesians bulls that are under pressure, due to pressure on beef prices, dairy farmers are using beef bulls( not all cows are put incalf to Friesians) with poor beef traits so that cows calve easier and this increases dairy profitability. These lower quality cattle are under prices pressure as well.

As beef farmers further destock, as dairy farmer that have beef enterprise's reduce or exit from them it is hard to see where all the calves that are going to beef will be reared. There is a large number of them exported to the Continent at present. If the live export trade disappears it hard to see where all these calves will go.

I think last year 250k+ calves and weanlings were exported.

Maybe the tillage farmers will be incentivised by the Government to call off the dairy farming soon enough as a result of the findings from the environmental study carried out by UCD? https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0729/1156114-tillage/

I find it terribly sad that the friesian calf situation will only become more precarious as a result of an increase in supply, but I understand the fact that the farmers need to make a living. It sounds disingenuous but I somehow find myself both rooting for the farmers, while simultaneously feeling disgusted by the industry.

Realistically, there are only two solutions. Reduce the herd/divest the Irish dairy industry, or incentivise farmers to keep the calves. Neither of these seem likely, unfortunately.

Bass Reeves

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Maybe the tillage farmers will be incentivised by the Government to call off the dairy farming soon enough as a result of the findings from the environmental study carried out by UCD? https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0729/1156114-tillage/

I find it terribly sad that the friesian calf situation will only become more precarious as a result of an increase in supply, but I understand the fact that the farmers need to make a living. It sounds disingenuous but I somehow find myself both rooting for the farmers, while simultaneously feeling disgusted by the industry.

Realistically, there are only two solutions. Reduce the herd/divest the Irish dairy industry, or incentivise farmers to keep the calves. Neither of these seem likely, unfortunately.

Problem is this is how do you reverse a 5-10 years cycle of poor prices in a short term to encourage large scale commercial tillage farms to reverse decisions made after this cycle if low profitability. Tillage tends to be on 30-50% owned land with the rest rented. On large tillage farms with a decent land base dairying seems a no-brainer

LawBoy2018

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Problem is this is how do you reverse a 5-10 years cycle of poor prices in a short term to encourage large scale commercial tillage farms to reverse decisions made after this cycle if low profitability. Tillage tends to be on 30-50% owned land with the rest rented. On large tillage farms with a decent land base dairying seems a no-brainer

That's very true! I genuinely have no idea but I'd love to learn more about it. I'm sure these questions have been pondered by people far more informed than myself, I was just interested to see how other people feel when they see videos such as the ones in my OP.

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I randomly stumbled upon an instagram post of an animal rights activist who uploaded several pictures/videos of cattle being loaded upon a ship down in Cork. This is what she said in the caption:

"At Cork Port 2000 Irish bulls, mostly weanlings are forced onto a ship that will travel the sea for around 9 days if all goes exactly to plan to Libya and if they don't die along the way.⁣
⁣
Regulation to protect them is lacking and they did not even follow that with at least 2 men shown to use a stick to hit them while shouting and whistled at them. I was once told by a farmer that whistling is terrifying for them. Also no masks worn and no ppe which is required for that area. One of the workers in the area did not agree with live exports but had to do his job and we learned that it has been even worse before with a cow trying to escape and jumped over the ramp. Other activists informed me Cork is one of the worst they've seen.⁣
⁣
These individuals looked at me trying to understand what is happening to them and full of fear. What do you think will happen to them when they get to Libya?"

How do people feel about this and live exports in general?

The post on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDPRybrJyec/

If you are worried about the cattle being whistled at or hit with a stick or even the method we slaughter animals in the West, you don't want to know anything about how they slaughter animals in the Islamic tradition.

I've seen it happen here in slaughterhouses in Ireland i.e the Islamic tradition.

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

If you are worried about the cattle being whistled at or hit with a stick or even the method we slaughter animals in the West, you don't want to know anything about how they slaughter animals in the Islamic tradition.

I've seen it happen here in slaughterhouses in Ireland i.e the Islamic tradition.

Well that's actually one of the main reasons why I'm against the live exports being sent to countries outside the EU. At least in Ireland they're stunned first, I don't think that's the case elsewhere.

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Well that's actually one of the main reasons why I'm against the live exports being sent to countries outside the EU. At least in Ireland they're stunned first, I don't think that's the case elsewhere.

The Islamic tradition of slaughtering animals also occurs in Irish slaughterhouses. (Used to up to 10-15 years ago anyway) Any major slaughterhouse will have two boxes - one for ordinary use i.e stun and one for use with halal orders.

With halal orders, non-believers are completely exempt from touching the cattle with their bare hands once slaughtered. Greater levels of glove/ mask use and inspection.

The person doing the slaughtering must also be a Muslim who comes from outside. No stunning - there's a mechanism in the second box which moves the head into position to be slaughtered by blade. It's an extremely disturbing thing to witness.

Sorry if I'm overly graphic.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Maybe the tillage farmers will be incentivised by the Government to call off the dairy farming soon enough as a result of the findings from the environmental study carried out by UCD? https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0729/1156114-tillage/

I find it terribly sad that the friesian calf situation will only become more precarious as a result of an increase in supply, but I understand the fact that the farmers need to make a living. It sounds disingenuous but I somehow find myself both rooting for the farmers, while simultaneously feeling disgusted by the industry.

Realistically, there are only two solutions. Reduce the herd/divest the Irish dairy industry, or incentivise farmers to keep the calves. Neither of these seem likely, unfortunately.

If you went to the average dairy farmer and told him that you wanted a newborn friesian bull calf, he would probably pay you to take it from him.



Just think about that for a minute. The costs for rearing the animal also include the extra food etc. given to it's mother before it's birth. Then, after spending that money, after it is born, you would still pay to have it taken off your hands.

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

The Islamic tradition of slaughtering animals also occurs in Irish slaughterhouses. (Used to up to 10-15 years ago anyway) Any major slaughterhouse will have two boxes - one for ordinary use i.e stun and one for use with halal orders.

With halal orders, non-believers are completely exempt from touching the cattle with their bare hands once slaughtered. Greater levels of glove/ mask use and inspection.

The person doing the slaughtering must also be a Muslim who comes from outside. No stunning - there's a mechanism in the second box which moves the head into position to be slaughtered by blade. It's an extremely disturbing thing to witness.

Sorry if I'm overly graphic.

Well that's certainly not the case anymore as it would breach EU Regulations.

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Well that's certainly not the case anymore as it would breach EU Regulations.

That must be a recent change because it was happening in this country up to 10-15 years ago with the explicit OK of our government. Government officials are ever-present in slaughterhouses.

Anyway, that's the outcome the 2,000 bulls face in Libya.

LawBoy2018

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you went to the average dairy farmer and told him that you wanted a newborn friesian bull calf, he would probably pay you to take it from him.



Just think about that for a minute. The costs for rearing the animal also include the extra food etc. given to it's mother before it's birth. Then, after spending that money, after it is born, you would still pay to have it taken off your hands.

I suppose it's a 50/50 chance whether or not it'll be a bull calf + then the farmer has a 9 or 10 month supply of milk. It's a grotesque industry really, but that's life it seems!

Atlantic Dawn

The animals should have been euthanized at birth if we had no use for them, the carbon emissions from farming is sickening.

LawBoy2018

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The animals should have been euthanized at birth if we had no use for them, the carbon emissions from farming is sickening.

Euthanizing perfectly healthy newborn calves because of their carbon emissions is far more sickening, imo. What a bleak outlook of the world you must have.

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Well that's certainly not the case anymore as it would breach EU Regulations.

You might want to check the actual regulations out based on this. First article on google.

https://gript.ie/should-halal-be-banned/

I'm assuming the method I viewed was "not cruel" based on the regulation and also is allowed on the "religious exemption" section.

It is cruel and it's not in anyway humane. Once the slaughter is completed, the box is opened to dump the bull/cow on the ground. They nearly always manage to get back to their feet before bleeding out. The noise they make is unreal, as you can imagine with their airways cut, while they try to get out of the place.

Again, sorry to be so graphic but it's pretty clear that most people don't understand this method, what it entails, and whether it occurs in the factory up the road.

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

You might want to check the actual regulations out based on this. First article on google.

https://gript.ie/should-halal-be-banned/

I'm assuming the method I viewed was "not cruel" based on the regulation and also is allowed on the "religious exemption" section.

It is cruel and it's not in anyway humane. Once the slaughter is completed, the box is opened to dump the bull/cow on the ground. They nearly always manage to get back to their feet before bleeding out. The noise they make is unreal, as you can imagine with their airways cut, while they try to get out of the place.

Again, sorry to be so graphic but it's pretty clear that most people don't understand this method, what it entails, and whether it occurs in the factory up the road.

What's your agenda here? This practice doesn't happen in Irish factories, end of. To imply otherwise is simply untrue.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I suppose it's a 50/50 chance whether or not it'll be a bull calf + then the farmer has a 9 or 10 month supply of milk. It's a grotesque industry really, but that's life it seems!

No it's not a grotesque industry.



What is grotesque is that the middlemen and supermarkets use their power to squeeze the producer.


A farmer is getting paid the same for a litre of milk in 2020 as he was in 1980. Is the consumer paying the same in 2020 as they paid in 1980? They are in their bollix. And that ignores that most of the improvements in terms of technology and efficiencies of scale have been made in the processor and grocery parts of the chain. If you had enough land to feed 50 cows in 1980, well you're not going to be able to feed 500 on that land now. But the processors can have easily scaled up with technology.

LawBoy2018

Donald Trump wrote: »

No it's not a grotesque industry.



What is grotesque is that the middlemen and supermarkets use their power to squeeze the producer.


A farmer is getting paid the same for a litre of milk in 2020 as he was in 1980. Is the consumer paying the same in 2020 as they paid in 1980? They are in their bollix. And that ignores that most of the improvements in terms of technology and efficiencies of scale have been made in the processor and grocery parts of the chain. If you had enough land to feed 50 cows in 1980, well you're not going to be able to feed 500 on that land now. But the processors can have easily scaled up with technology.

Why is milk so cheap? Is it simply due to too much supply?

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

What's your agenda here? This practice doesn't happen in Irish factories, end of. To imply otherwise is simply untrue.

You're the one who asked the forum about the likely future of the 2,000 bulls heading to Libya. I'm giving you the answer based on Islamic slaughtering tradition.

I'm telling you from a position of authority given I've witnessed this tradition many times in Irish slaughterhouses. I've witnessed this up to circa. 2008. And I've pointed out an article that suggests it is still legal under EU Law.

Now if it makes you feel better, you can bury your head in the sand and accuse people of having some secret agenda. But you really shouldn't write into the forum and ask for information if you aren't going to like the answer.

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

You're the one who asked the forum about the likely future of the 2,000 bulls heading to Libya. I'm giving you the answer based on Islamic slaughtering tradition.

I'm telling you from a position of authority given I've witnessed this tradition many times in Irish slaughterhouses. I've witnessed this up to circa. 2008. And I've pointed out an article that suggests it is still legal under EU Law.

Now if it makes you feel better, you can bury your head in the sand and accuse people of having some secret agenda. But you really shouldn't write into the forum and ask for information if you aren't going to like the answer.

We're discussing the practice of live exports here, not how Muslims prepare their beef. We have established that the fact that the majority of the countries outside the EU in which Ireland exports livestock slaughter said animals in accordance with their religious beliefs. Whether you agree with that or not, there's no point in droning on with graphic language as to how/why they conduct such practices.

The article you cited was published by Gript, hardly the most reputable of sources. I'm from Mayo and live less than 15km from a Halal factory so you can spare me your patronising hearsay.

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Why is milk so cheap? Is it simply due to too much supply?

Almost all farmed produced is cheap. It is cheap because the people who have most power in the system are able to force the prices down while still keeping a decent margin for themselves. This is how the system works for milk which is actually the most viable farming enterprise (I am not making this up). Saturday will start August. You will feed and take care of, and milk your cows throughout August. You will have reared those animals for a number of years. You can't suddenly switch on or off having more cows. So you milk them and then a lorry comes, usually every 2 days and removes that milk to a processor. Then, say around 15th September after your August milk is long delivered, processed and consumed, the processor will inform you what they will pay you for that August milk.




For a tonne of wheat which would be the main ingredient used to produce about 1700 loaves of bread, the producer will be paid about 180 Euro.




Yet Larry Goodman is worth about 2.5bn

LawBoy2018

Donald Trump wrote: »

Almost all farmed produced is cheap. It is cheap because the people who have most power in the system are able to force the prices down while still keeping a decent margin for themselves.


For a tonne of wheat which would be the main ingredient used to produce about 1700 loaves of bread, the producer will be paid about 180 Euro.


Yet Larry Goodman is worth about 2.5bn

If that's the case, then why don't farmers cut off supply? Would that not be an abuse of his dominant poition, breaching EU Competition Laws?

Donald Trump

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

If that's the case, then why don't farmers cut off supply? Would that not be an abuse of his dominant poition, breaching EU Competition Laws?

Grain prices are influenced by global markets. As are other agricultural commodities. But not all countries have the same costs as here. However it is not as easy as just thinking that "sure why not just import everything then".

You cannot cut off supply. You grow what you can and hope for the best. What is a single individual going to do with 1000 tonnes of wheat? Make 1.7m loaves of break with it? It grows, you have to cut it. Then you have to sell it or store it.

If you would like to buy 100 acres in Ireland to increase the number of cattle you can rear, you will want to have at least 1m Euro to purchase reasonably good land. If you are in Brazil and want to have an extra 1000 acres to rear more cattle, you need the price of a box of matches.......

Irishman80

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

We're discussing the practice of live exports here, not how Muslims prepare their beef. We have established that the fact that the majority of the countries outside the EU in which Ireland exports livestock slaughter said animals in accordance with their religious beliefs. Whether you agree with that or not, there's no point in droning on with graphic language as to how/why they conduct such practices.

The article you cited was published by Gript, hardly the most reputable of sources. I'm from Mayo and live less than 15km from a Halal factory so you can spare me your patronising hearsay.

You linked an Instagram post which asked what people thought the outcome of the 2,000 bulls would be. And you specifically asked our thoughts on that and the live cattle trade. I've given my answer.

If you have evidence the Gript article is wrong, point it out. Simply calling things not reputable is not really an argument. You're the self-described "LawBoy" - how about reading the law and telling us why they are wrong?

Saying things like "End Of" without actually given evidence in a debate is also pretty childish.

So you live 15km from a Halal factory but also say that Halal slaughter does not occur in Ireland? Have you actually ever being inside a slaughterhouse?

You need to wake up to reality. If you're really worried about animal cruelty, you need to open your eyes. From this conversation though, it's seems you are not really that worried about it. It's like a fad phase for you to virtue signal about.

And, that's fine also. But don't expect anyone to take you serious about the issue.

Irishman80

Here's another article for you LawBoy. From 2015 - and it also lists the religious exemption i.e Halal slaughter.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/halal-non-stunning-of-cattle-pre-slaughter-is-a-contentious-issue-says-vet/

Take your head out of the sand.

Like really think about this: you can't read the law even though you are seemingly a LawBoy, you live15km from a Halal factory but argue Halal slaughter doesn't happen in this country, and you post links where you seem worried a cow is being whistled at while completely ignoring and avoiding the actual severe cruelty involved in the Halal method of slaughter.

But, according to you, I've the agenda.

Overheal

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

We're discussing the practice of live exports here, not how Muslims prepare their beef. We have established that the fact that the majority of the countries outside the EU in which Ireland exports livestock slaughter said animals in accordance with their religious beliefs. Whether you agree with that or not, there's no point in droning on with graphic language as to how/why they conduct such practices.

The article you cited was published by Gript, hardly the most reputable of sources. I'm from Mayo and live less than 15km from a Halal factory so you can spare me your patronising hearsay.

He wasn't droning he was just contributing. Pretty informative (and random) thread I must say. Had seen a debate about Halal last year in another forum, people were upset Brennan's Bread was Halal certified.

He did apologize for being graphic, but it is informative to the thread. Also graphic is sharing videos conveying alleged animal abuse so that seems a bit unfair to level against Irishman80. I understand from your post #29 that you have your own agenda against Halal (that's your prerogative) - if I may you were both cordial to one another until he wrote about some specifics of the practice, at which point you accused him of having an agenda, which is unfair to say of someone just adding some detail to a conversation.

The only thing I'm seeing about EU law is non-stunned Halal meat can't be marketed as Organic as of a 2019 ruling: https://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu-court-rules-non-stunned-halal-and-kosher-meat-cant-be-marketed-as-organic-37857260.html which doesn't suggest to me the practice is prohibited, and the 1935 Slaughter of Animals Act has an exception for Muslims, colloquially termed as Mohommadans (those people that believe in Mohommad, of course!) in the law:

15.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, no person shall in a slaughter-house, slaughter or render unconscious for the purpose of slaughter an animal of any particular kind by any means or in any manner otherwise than by means of an instrument which is an approved instrument in relation to animals of that particular kind and is in good working order and is used in the approved manner.

(2) Nothing in this section shall apply to or render unlawful—

(a) the slaughter of any animal for consumption as food by Jews, where such slaughter is carried out according to the Jewish method by a Jew who is for the time being approved in that behalf by the Chief Rabbi of the Irish Free State for the time being or in his absence by the Board of Shechita of the Jewish Community of Dublin,

or

(b) the slaughter of any animal for consumption as food by Mahommedans, where such slaughter is carried out according to the Mahommedan method by a Mahommedan, or

(c) the slaughter of any animal by any means in the course of an inquiry, investigation, or experiment made by direction of the Minister for Agriculture under this Part of this Act.

So I mean, tl;dr it happens...

LawBoy2018

Irishman80 wrote: »

You linked an Instagram post which asked what people thought the outcome of the 2,000 bulls would be. And you specifically asked our thoughts on that and the live cattle trade. I've given my answer.

If you have evidence the Gript article is wrong, point it out. Simply calling things not reputable is not really an argument. You're the self-described "LawBoy" - how about reading the law and telling us why they are wrong?

Saying things like "End Of" without actually given evidence in a debate is also pretty childish.

So you live 15km from a Halal factory but also say that Halal slaughter does not occur in Ireland? Have you actually ever being inside a slaughterhouse?

You need to wake up to reality. If you're really worried about animal cruelty, you need to open your eyes. From this conversation though, it's seems you are not really that worried about it. It's like a fad phase for you to virtue signal about.

And, that's fine also. But don't expect anyone to take you serious about the issue.

My original post contained an instagram post that I stumbled upon earlier today which depcited livestock being prepared to be exported to Libya. My original question was; "How do people feel about this and live exports in general?". I never asked anyone about what they thought the outcome of said calves would be, as I was/am fully aware of what happens to them abroad. I did, however, ask the well-informed poster who I was conversing with earlier in the thread what would happen to the Friesian calves if live exports were to be abolished.

In relation to Gript and the article you cited, the reason why I implied that 'Gript' as an organisation is not reputable, especially when it comes to discussions regarding other religions, is becuase it's ran by far-right catholics who get some sort of perverse kick out of piling onto anyone with different beliefs to theirs. Obviously, any article they write about halal meat will be more biased than your regular MSM.

My use of the phrase "end of" wasn't intended to insult you, it was intended to indicate to you that I had absolutely 0 interest in discussing the intricacies/gorey details of halal meat production with someone who I suspected had alterior motives, yet here we are.

Yes, I live approximately 15kms from a meat factory that produces 'halal' meat. They don't prepare it in the traditional way you described earlier, they stun the animals beforehand. I have never been in a slaughterhouse but many of my friends would have worked in said factory during their summer holidays (a grim existence).

Hahah I'm laughing + cringing at the same time when you say 'lawboy', it's like when someone makes a gammy email address back in the day and it comes back to haunt them...

The legal position is definitely quite murky when it comes to Halal meat. The legal position within the EU is that animals should be stunned before their slaughtered to facilitate as little suffereing as possible, however, MS can may allow derogations for ritual slaughter. - The Council of Europe’s Convention for the Protection of Animals for Slaughter and the European Union’s Council Regulation 1099/2009.

After quite a bit of routing though, I did find this...

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/foodsafetyconsumerissues/meathygiene/tradernotices/2014/AnimalWelfareSOPTN090414.pdf

Article 3 sets out the procedure to be used by the halal slaughterhouses!

I hold my hands up, you're right! Very disturbing indeed.

Irishman80

Overheal wrote: »

So I mean, tl;dr it happens...

It's a absolute win for animal rights activists who really want to change societies viewpoint on animal slaughter.

In slaughter with stunning, I've witnessed cattle in the chute on the way from the pens. Once they get to about 10 from the box, you can see the fear in their eyes. It's unmistakable. Often, electric prods are used to prod them up the chute.

In Halal slaughter, it's much worse. They can hear the noise of dying cattle just metres away. To witness it is shocking. If people think my explanations are graphic, they will not want to witness it.

If Irish animal rights activists managed to secretly record these things from an Irish site, the Irish population would be shocked.

Overheal

Aye that's fair enough. And by not certifying it organic you're limiting the number of people mentioned earlier who will pick it out in the shop because it 'sounds healthier.'