Blatant Cheating

dan_ep82

Been on the forum a few years now and it always seems to come up regularly.

The main one seems to be handicap manipulation. Even here, where I'd judge we have more golfers who are in it for the love of the game and not the winners circle accusations are thrown around a bit.

Then you have the winks and nods about certain clubs about inter club comps. ( I don't follow interclub so couldn't comment on this)

What I'd like to know is have you ever caught someone blatantly cheating, where if you had a go pro on your head it's a clear cut case?

I'm playing 5 or 6 years and I've only ever suspected one guy of breaking the rules on purpose to better his ( admittedly atrocious ) score on the day.


With the way some posters go on you would expect alot of instances but I don't think we will get them.

finglashoop

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Been on the forum a few years now and it always seems to come up regularly.

The main one seems to be handicap manipulation. Even here, where I'd judge we have more golfers who are in it for the love of the game and not the winners circle accusations are thrown around a bit.

Then you have the winks and nods about certain clubs about inter club comps. ( I don't follow interclub so couldn't comment on this)

What I'd like to know is have you ever caught someone blatantly cheating, where if you had a go pro on your head it's a clear cut case?

I'm playing 5 or 6 years and I've only ever suspected one guy of breaking the rules on purpose to better his ( admittedly atrocious ) score on the day.


With the way some posters go on you would expect alot of instances but I don't think we will get them.

Only playing comps about a year so it would be a small sample size really and nothing ive noticed. Have heard about fellas shooting massive scores and not handing in cards

I am trying to get as low as i can. If i win/place or get a few quid out of the twos along the way its a bonus.

To be perfectly honest id call them out on it. But then is it a case of your word against theres when it comes to handing in scores when you get to the clubhouse?

Has anyone been in this situation? What happens there? I assume its not a good spot for the person callling them out.

Even in a casual game i wouldnt do something to improve lie etc. as i feel i would only be fooling myself but in a comp if a fella is not going to admit what hes done if you call him out on the spot what can you actually do?

Golf is my Game

Weve all seen it, and weve all let it go. Its not your movie style cheating like dropping a spare ball down the trouser leg or whatever. But it happens like this : theres a slightly odd situation where you should check the rules, and no one nose the answer off the top of their head. So that lad takes the option that suits his score best. Everyone knows thats the wrong one, but isnt sure of the right procedure. 'Mick' says, because they want to support the guy - ' yes thats it'. So he goes ahead and plays. He knows he probably wrong but because no one call tell him the right way he plays on and doesnt want to check the rules because he knows it will work out bad for him. But its cheating.
You sometimes see it get even worse, in the clubhouse chatting about it, someone gives the right answer, and the guy knows he should disqualify himself, but will he heck. If someone says why not, he says 'well Mick said I were OK' so thats OK then. Which he knows doesnt count for diddly but still says it like because one player said do it then he should be penalised for taking advantage of not playing the right penalty or whatever.

DuckSlice

Seen plenty,

Lads pulling a few long bits of grass from behind their ball,

Playing up the ninth before teeing it up in the comp (not matchplay)

Marking their ball and replacing the ball 2 inches ahead of the marker

Not dropping in the right places, this is mostly down to them not knowing the rule.

Don’t call them out on it though but probably should. It just makes for an awkward remainder of the round of calling them out on it.

The practicing before the round really gets on my tits though!

billy3sheets

In 20+ years and maybe a thousand rounds, I can't say I've ever definitely seen cheating deliberately.
Many golfers don't know the rules precisely and they take a liberal approach to taking relief but not deliberately cheating.
I know of 1 player who suffered from numerixa and had difficulty totting up the number of shots taken on any given hole. Same player was also brought to my attention for pitching their marker a couple of feet ahead of the ball when marking a ball on the green.
I've challenged a few on their interpretation of the rules but no one of cheating.
Personally I couldn't sleep if I thought I had taken any kind of unwarranted benefit in a round. Twice I've handed back prizes when I realised a mistake afterwards.

CalamariFritti

Once. Was in an unusual spot when I was still new to it (when you tend to be in unusual spots) and saw a guy kicking his ball out from the cabbage half under a tree into the open. He came up the other hole and never expected anyone to be where I was. Sunday comp too. Just grins at me and says nothing and I say nothing. I was new to it what was I going to do?

Its a good few years ago and I play elsewhere now but I remembered it instantly when I saw the thread title.

BraveDonut

Recently seeing a lot of players finding their ball waaaayyyy after the 3 minutes and just carrying on.

Told a guy he couldn't play the ball outside of his 3 minutes and he was not happy

GreeBo

BraveDonut wrote: »

Recently seeing a lot of players finding their ball waaaayyyy after the 3 minutes and just carrying on.

Told a guy he couldn't play the ball outside of his 3 minutes and he was not happy

I have a 3 minute timer ready to go on my watch...3 mins is not very long, especially when people were taking 8+ for their 5 min search!

blue note

I'm not sure what way to vote here. As a junior, in the junior competitions (juniors only, junior handicaps) I saw it all the time. The magic pencil was a pandemic. You'd ask a guy his score and you'd have to count back his shots with him to get to the actual one. If you saw a particular three ball head out together you'd know that they could be taking 15 shots off their overall scores, and that's no exaggeration. I still remember one particular guy coming in with 54 points, playing off 24. I spoke to one of his playing partners after and he told me that he actually did shoot fairly close to that, he only actually gave himself an extra few points. As if that was acceptable!

But in senior competitions, I haven't ever noticed that kind of cheating. People not knowing the rules and taking bad drops, relief when they're not entitled to it certainly happens, I assume I've done it. If I know the rule I'll tell them. But the worst was a guy I play with regularly who has been playing a long time, but just got his first handicap at the start of 2019. He's played a decent bit of society golf, I've only ever once played in a comp with him. I was in a casual round with him and I landed in a divot. I just said to him I'm not in the mood to play out of that and moved it. He said sure you get relief from that anyway. He genuinely thought that you get relief from being in a divot! He almost certainly (innocently) has taken a drop from being in a divot in a comp and society golf.

I also reckon people cheat but convince themselves they don't. The likes of a guy flattening his lie with a three wood before hitting it, telling himself he's just addressing the ball. Or convince themselves that the point of entry into a hazard was more convenient than it actually was. I've seen this, but it's a hard one to call someone up on.

And then finally there's the people who unashamedly cheat. Often when you get to your ball you're out of sight. If you want to improve your lie or even your line no-one can really stop you. Or if you find a ball and play it as your own. As a grown up I've never noticed this type of cheating.

Colonel_McCoy

Seen some a person submit three cards for h/c.

First comp shaves 20 shots of their best card for h/c.

Another person completed a round with a partner in under 2.5 hours. ( calculated from sign in and sign out in comp).


The list is endless.

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

I have a 3 minute timer ready to go on my watch...3 mins is not very long, especially when people were taking 8+ for their 5 min search!

Would you be doing this to guys/ladies you know or just your normal 4 ball?

I've only ever been once put on the timer and that was after I called a lad out for playing a provisional at a water hazard and that he now had to play his provisional. we all thought the ball was in the hazard so I didn't say anything on the tee.

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

Would you be doing this to guys/ladies you know or just your normal 4 ball?

I've only ever been once put on the timer and that was after I called a lad out for playing a provisional at a water hazard and that he now had to play his provisional. we all thought the ball was in the hazard so I didn't say anything on the tee.

I wouldnt be announcing that I'm starting a clock, but I would use it for myself but also to keep an eye on the time. often someone will say "how long am I looking?" and no one has a clue.

Joe_ Public

Played with a society crowd a few years ago and cheating was rife, from guys deliberately undercounting shots to leather wedges to finding wrong ball and playing it regardless. The list is endless. I always let it go, attitude was if guys were that desperate to win a few pro vs then off with them.

Dont bother much with competitions because just not that serious about it and want to keep the game fun.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

I wouldnt be announcing that I'm starting a clock, but I would use it for myself but also to keep an eye on the time. often someone will say "how long am I looking?" and no one has a clue.

I'd find it really useful for someone to time it for a group. You're definitely right that the three minutes is often 5 or more. I don't think this is deliberate cheating, but certainly something people should be more careful about.

Wombatman

Told an auld lad, that I didn't play with regularly, his two faced jigger\chipper was non-conforming and against the rules. He'd been using it for years in and out of competition. He was not a happy bunny. His regular group of auld lad mates gave him some stick about it. It's still in the bag.

big_drive

Colonel_McCoy wrote: »

Seen some a person submit three cards for h/c.

First comp shaves 20 shots of their best card for h/c.

Another person completed a round with a partner in under 2.5 hours. ( calculated from sign in and sign out in comp).


The list is endless.

What’s wrong with completing the round in under 2.5 hours?

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

I'd find it really useful for someone to time it for a group. You're definitely right that the three minutes is often 5 or more. I don't think this is deliberate cheating, but certainly something people should be more careful about.

I'll certainly be using it during inter club!

newindublin

I play a bit in society and also in club golf, the standard is different

Society:
- Societies often have different rules, and though I read them, most do not. Even if I tell them the society rule on a drop, they just kind of bobble the head and go ahead and do what they want. For example, my "casual" society has a long standing rule that you can drop a ball in the fairway for a 2 stroke penalty for a lost ball. Most seem to think its OK to drop a ball wherever they think it was lost for a one stroke penalty.
- I have played in 2 societies and they have very different standards for following the rules. One really is more about getting out, where the other is more serious about fair play in my experience (go boards society!).

Club:
- I have counted strokes on a player i am not carding and seen a stroke shaved more than once. But never with a player who was anywhere near a good score, so I usually write it off as saving some face for someone struggling to break 20 pts on the day.

GolfNut33

Probably the biggest rule break of them all is leaving your ball near the hole to help your fellow competitors if they're off the green.

CalamariFritti

Not that I'd actually do that, but is that really a rule break?

Mushy

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Not that I'd actually do that, but is that really a rule break?

It is in some manner, like if it was discussed and said leave it there just in case it can stop the ball.

Dont think it's a rule break if player chips on before you've had chance to mark it.

May need further clarification though

GolfNut33

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Not that I'd actually do that, but is that really a rule break?

Oh yes. Straight DQ.

GolfNut33

Mushy wrote: »

It is in some manner, like if it was discussed and said leave it there just in case it can stop the ball.

Dont think it's a rule break if player chips on before you've had chance to mark it.

May need further clarification though

Not against the rules to leave it there but if you leave it there with the intention of helping someone else then it is.

Mushy

GolfNut33 wrote: »

Not against the rules to leave it there but if you leave it there with the intention of helping someone else then it is.

Essentially that is what I mean

begbysback

Cmon lads we've all done it, ball lands in the rough a foot or 2 off the fairway, nobody around, accidentally gets kicked onto the fairway

Joe_ Public

GolfNut33 wrote: »

Not against the rules to leave it there but if you leave it there with the intention of helping someone else then it is.

Technical term is "backstopping" i think. Its very controversial but how do you police it? I vaguely recall an incident on the womens tour where it happened and they were high fiving each other like it was a well executed plan but no penalties were issue iirc.

Mushy

begbysback wrote: »

Cmon lads we've all done it, ball lands in the rough a foot or 2 off the fairway, nobody around, accidentally gets kicked onto the fairway

Nope cant say I have

tommyombomb

One thing that annoys me is thw handicap fixing, firstly for the obvious for people who do it.

Then other reason it annoys me is due to inconsistent play. Finally got a handicap after years of playing but not a member anywhere, was given a 19 handicap which is fair for my level currently except i can be very hot and cold. Hadnt played a tournament yet, only submitted cards recently to get handicap. Presidents cup on this weekend but didnt register to play incase i played very hot and reputation would be ruined as a bandit. Also think winning a tournament off a 19 isnt right for the presidents cup.

hurikane

Chap in my club, seems to find an animal scraping anytime his swing is impeded by a tree. Played with him a few of times and each time he has taken relief that gets him away from the tree. First time I didn’t question it, second time I went over and had a look. There was a tiny mark that was possibly a very old and very small scraping which he had to stretch to stand in and address his ball. Third time he claimed an indentation caused by tree roots was another scraping, he took relief again, told him to get fcuked, I wasn’t signing his card. He left the club after this and unfortunately I see he has rejoined under one of the new deals to attract members.

begbysback

begbysback wrote: »

Cmon lads we've all done it, ball lands in the rough a foot or 2 off the fairway, nobody around, accidentally gets kicked onto the fairway

The old foot wedge, you may think people have not seen you do it but they will have.

BigChap1759

Used to play in my work’s society and there was a very senior guy, senior finance director in large tech company, and he was chronic, you’d have seen him hitting at least 8 shots and then he’d tell you he got a 5 on the hole - pretty awkward then talking through each shot - did it 3 times in one round with me so not an accident, bonkers stuff.

Wichita Lineman

Several years ago I was playing in a team classic where the teams were split up and one guy in our group blatantly pulled a ball back into play with his club from beyond a boundary fence. He played a lovely chip across onto the green and holed out for a par. That was until I asked him to put it as a blank seeing as I had watched him pull it in from OOB. He didnt deny it. Happened about halfway and he didnt speak to me for the rest of round but I wasnt exactly bothered.

seanl77

The animal scrapping used to be a serious bone of contention in my club, we used to have a bit of a rabbit problem especially early in the year. Jaysus some lads were claiming it 3 or 4 times a round, always when behind a tree or close to a obstruction of course. I once refused to sign a scorecard for my playing partner, he pulled the handbrake on the 17th green with a ridiculously obvious 4 putt from 15 feet after some idiot came down from the clubhouse to inform him of the leaders score. He knew he couldn't win so decided to make sure he wouldn't get cut. This was in one of the two majors, i was only a young lad back then but no way was I signing it. Safe to say there was serious words exchanged in the car park after by both parties.....

billy3sheets

Funny thing I noticed in a game with an older guy was he would do various things to try to get you to play first even though it was clearly his turn. Mostly on and around the green. He'd develop a cough, something in his eye, a shoelace to be tied. Took me a couple of holes to realise there was a pattern.
Not cheating but certainly gamesmanship. Funny really the lengths some people go to.

gypsy79

Had a lad play with me on Wednesday who was a pavilion member of a upper class Dublin course but maintained a distance membership in another course

Anyway I played with two lads. Had 32 points. Missed loads of small putts. I had more points than both of them combined

one lad wasnt in competition. He basically told me he just wanted get his handicap down from 25.

I check results and see he has entered 38 points. He came ****ing 4th

I dont think he was trying to win

But he put a 4 in for our index 1 for 4 points and he lost 3 balls off tee. Enough said

Second abuse of COVID relaxations I have seen

swededmonkey

gypsy79 wrote: »

Had a lad play with me on Wednesday who was a pavilion member of a upper class Dublin course but maintained a distance membership in another course

Anyway I played with two lads. Had 32 points. Missed loads of small putts. I had more points than both of them combined

one lad wasnt in competition. He basically told me he just wanted get his handicap down from 25.

I check results and see he has entered 38 points. He came ****ing 4th

I dont think he was trying to win

But he put a 4 in for our index 1 for 4 points and he lost 3 balls off tee. Enough said

Second abuse of COVID relaxations I have seen

Did you verbally confirm scores with him after the round?

gypsy79

swededmonkey wrote: »

Did you verbally confirm scores with him after the round?

No, I was in a rush to get somewhere and he was been deliberately obtuse. Thats why I suspected there was going to be an issue. It was his behavious that aroused my suspicions.

Clearly I knew he was worried about what his handicap was to his friends in his southside club.

I reported to our handicap secretary

REFLINE1

BraveDonut wrote: »

Recently seeing a lot of players finding their ball waaaayyyy after the 3 minutes and just carrying on.

Told a guy he couldn't play the ball outside of his 3 minutes and he was not happy

Was he an experienced player?

blue note

newindublin wrote: »

- I have counted strokes on a player i am not carding and seen a stroke shaved more than once. But never with a player who was anywhere near a good score, so I usually write it off as saving some face for someone struggling to break 20 pts on the day.

I'm sure at times it is someone cheating and probably justified to himself by saying it's not affecting anyone. The unfortunate truth there is that the person it actually affects most negatively is the person doing it, because people will notice and judge him for it.

But I imagine the majority of times when someone turns a 23 point round into a 24 point one it is an innocent mistake. We all pay less attention to our scores when we're that far off the buffer zone.

In both cases they're terrible habits to be in, but I wouldn't lose sleep over either of those cases. Whereas someone turning a 38 into a 39 I wouldn't be giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.

youcancallmeal

I have rarely seen much blatant cheating in big summer competitions but in winter when placing is allowed and it's not qualifying it's a free for all. Many times seen lads placing an extremely generous 1ft away from trees/bushes.

GreeBo

gypsy79 wrote: »

I check results and see he has entered 38 points. He came ****ing 4th

I dont think he was trying to win

But he put a 4 in for our index 1 for 4 points and he lost 3 balls off tee. Enough said

Who plays 4 balls off the tee in a stableford competition?

blue note

youcancallmeal wrote: »

I have rarely seen much blatant cheating in big summer competitions but in winter when placing is allowed and it's not qualifying it's a free for all. Many times seen lads placing an extremely generous 1ft away from trees/bushes.

Placing is another rule that's constantly broken actually. Some people seem to think the 6 inches means the nearest available good lie to you. There are times in winter when there's still no good lie within 6 inches of your ball. When that happens you should place in the best bad lie available to you.

BraveDonut

blue note wrote: »

Placing is another rule that's constantly broken actually. Some people seem to think the 6 inches means the nearest available good lie to you. There are times in winter when there's still no good lie within 6 inches of your ball. When that happens you should place in the best bad lie available to you.

I have also seen players place their ball only to decide that they are not happy with the result and then placing it again - with another generous 6 inches.

gman127

I have recently experienced a situation that I'm still pondering what to do and would appreciate some input for you good folks on here and this seems a good a thread as any!

Playing with Player A, making general conversation, he has some family also playing at the club so ask how all are doing, playing much etc.
As plain as day says that his brother is 'minding his handicap' so that he can defend a major title he won last year :mad:

Then during this round and a subsequent one with a friend of mine later in the week, Player A on a few occasions either misses silly putts or doesn't even bother to search for his ball that could be easily found etc after he makes the turn with over 20 points and in danger of a good score.
And then after one of the rounds submits a score of 30 points even though his partner marked him for 32, which could have kept him in the buffer.

So, long story short, how would you approach this sort of blatant handicap minding? Both lads off about 25 and capable of at least 18 if not better (Player A was off 10 a few years ago! )

I plan to bring the issue to the mens committee or captain or handicap secretary or something but would appreciate some advice first. Cheers

joebloggs32

My dad went to play in a team in a classic fir the GAA club he played with back in the 60s.
He left the parish back then and no longer lives in the area.
He met a lad at a funeral who invited him to play with them so he accepted.
When they reached the first green the lads started to give each other the gimme puts....no finishing out.
My father who was single category 1 player for probably 40 years asked them what they were doing. They said its what they always do....give each other the short puts like you do in the casual fourball!

I know of other lads that won prizes in a couple of scrambles. Wouldn't be playing too long and I couldn't figure out how they were scoring so well.
They were breaking the rules on the double.
First they were applying their "shots" individually, so if player A holed the putt and his normal handicap gave him a shot at the hole they were counting it.
Also when putting if player A missed his first putt he would try and get his second pit in, before player b took his, thus giving the other 3 a free putt.

gypsy79

GreeBo wrote: »

Who plays 4 balls off the tee in a stableford competition?

He also placed another ball on the fairway and played it in!

The only defence in his favour was that he asked me what normally wins. I told it had been crazy with 45 plus lately. I had a feeling from the way he was talking about his handicap that something odd would happen. He isnt even a 25 tbf

He obviously thought that it was a victimless crime, playing one of his comps to get his 4 for the year and a little cut while not venturing near the prizes

GreeBo

gypsy79 wrote: »

He also placed another ball on the fairway and played it in!

The only defence in his favour was that he asked me what normally wins. I told it had been crazy with 45 plus lately. I had a feeling from the way he was talking about his handicap that something odd would happen. He isnt even a 25 tbf

He obviously thought that it was a victimless crime, playing one of his comps to get his 4 for the year and a little cut while not venturing near the prizes

I wouldnt have let him hit 4 off the tee, what about the people behind?!

GolfNut33

A mate of mine was telling me that an old boy was caught teeing up the ball on the fairway during the winter months at his course. Pretended he didn't know you couldn't do it.

The old lads seem to be the worst.

PARlance

GolfNut33 wrote: »

A mate of mine was telling me that an old boy was caught teeing up the ball on the fairway during the winter months at his course. Pretended he didn't know you couldn't do it.

The old lads seem to be the worst.

Slightly related.

Had a one in a million, or more, event happen me on a casual round in Portugal last year. My drive was in the right rough, as per usual. As we approached I said that looks to be sitting up quite nice to a playing partner. When we got to it, there it was sitting on a tee in the rough.

Couldn't believe it was my ball but there was no other ball in the vacanity, it was exactly where we thought it would be and it was the same number I was playing (resort ball, hadn't put any other id on it). The chances of it coming to rest on top of a tee in the rough have to be astronomical.

The next shot may have also ended up on a tee but I didn't follow it out of bounds to check.

Someone must have decided to give themselves a little helping hand before me.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

Who plays 4 balls off the tee in a stableford competition?

Someone who has 2 shots on the hole

prawnsambo

PARlance wrote: »

Someone must have decided to give themselves a little helping hand before me.

Could have been marking the spot for a drop. People often use tees for that.