Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

El Tarangu

ToddDameron wrote: »

Ultimately it's because Keane had a bigger influence on the team. Listen to any ex players in those United teams and they'll say he drove them on and got the best out of the them. Irwin was excellent, but Keane held the captaincy, was a respected leader and was a major driving force behind the success.

According to the visionary manager under whom all of this silverware was won, Irwin was the more reliable player.

ToddDameron wrote: »

Not really, you play an enormous amount of games when taking cups into consideration and have to consistently perform week in and week out (against players from all over the world) to keep your place, and at a top club you will be replaced if you don't. Constant international scrutiny and pressure from fans, management and media. To do all of that 5 or 6 times is remarkable, and the wages and prize money reflect that.

If this is a consideration when judging our greatest ever sportsperson, then soccer players would be out of the running altogether, as their calendar is dwarfed by that of any professional cyclist.

The wages and prize money is reflective of the popularity of the sport, nothing more.

Randy Archer

teednab-el wrote: »

What happened in 2000 and 2004 Olympics to her? She was ill in 1996 fair enough but she didn't have to loose the rag with Tony Considine after she came last in the race. It sumed her up for me to be honest.

Her period of success in European and worlds was pretty much over by 2000-2004 , she wasn’t the same successful athlete as she was in the 1990s . How was she expected to win in 2000 and 2004 When her form wasn’t there ?

You get any highly strung athlete coming off a bad performance and they know it , the last thing they want to do is be asked stupid questions from a person who wouldn’t know his arse from his elbow and have the cameras shoved into her face

She won a silver medal in 2000 by the way , so what are you on a bout ? John Tracey Won less in the Worlds and Euros and has been able to dine on his silver medal for decades. 2004 was her swan song, she wasn’t expected to do much

Bridge93

Gabriella Szabó who won gold in Sydney had drugs found in her car by French customs did she not? I thought there was a lot of bad feeling that Sonia was likely cheated in 2000

ToddDameron

El Tarangu wrote: »

According to the visionary manager under whom all of this silverware was won, Irwin was the more reliable

Read the post. Irwin was reliable and rarely made a mistake on the pitch. Keane was the captain who drove the team on, listen to any player testimonial and they'll talk about the impact of Keane. That, for me, is why Keane is ahead if him. Ferguson also supports that point: https://youtu.be/cvied4Y_0Sk

"The reason why I say Keane is the best player I ever had was because he was the most influential, he was the driving force behind the club for a decade."


Also the amount of games is a consideration when you're playing the most popular sport in world week in and week out, where you'll be dropped if you don't maintain a certain level, and where clubs are always on the look out for someone better. Now imagine doing that for 12 years and excelling in the process. That point was also specifically a comparison to GAA, obviously, as evidenced by the post it was responding to.

OneLungDavy

Don't kill me, but Eoin Morgan must be up there.

The Lost Sheep

teednab-el wrote: »

What happened in 2000 and 2004 Olympics to her? She was ill in 1996 fair enough but she didn't have to loose the rag with Tony Considine after she came last in the race. It sumed her up for me to be honest.

How did it sum her up?
And she got silver in 2000 and was 35 in 2004. Wouldnt have expected her to be challenging then.

eagle eye

OneLungDavy wrote:

Don't kill me, but Eoin Morgan must be up there.

If Katie Taylor is it because my considered then Eoin Morgan certainly can't be. Like there's only a few countries that play top level cricket.
Also he plays for England so it's greatest English sportsperson that he'd be contending for.

eagle eye

Right I was trying to stay modern but then people bring in that even though somebody completely dominated a sport it's not major enough for her to be in contention.

So time to end it.

Ireland's greatest ever sportsperson was James Cecil Parke from Clones, County Monaghan.
In tennis this man won the silver medal at the 1908 Olympics, won the Australian open men's tennis championship, was twice a beaten semi-finalist at Wimbledon. He won an Australian open doubles title as well and was a beaten finalist at doubles in Wimbledon, he won the mixed doubles at Wimbledon and also won the Davis Cup.
That not enough for you?
Well he played 30 times for Ireland as a centre at rugby, he represented Ireland in golf, was a first class cricketer and was a multiple national track and field sprint champion.

Nobody comes close.

El Tarangu

ToddDameron wrote: »

Also the amount of games is a consideration when you're playing the most popular sport in world week in and week out, where you'll be dropped if you don't maintain a certain level, and where clubs are always on the look out for someone better. Now imagine doing that for 12 years and excelling in the process. That point was also specifically a comparison to GAA, obviously, as evidenced by the post it was responding to.

What does the the popularity of the sport have to with it; does the fact that the sport gets its own section in the newspapers mean that soccer players are more impressive athletes then (for example) ultra-Ironman competitors?

The bolded part is true for literally any professional athlete.

Sean Kelly, as others have pointed out, dominated his chosen sport in a more comprehensive way than Roy Keane did, and for just as long.

ToddDameron

eagle eye wrote: »

Right I was trying to stay modern but then people bring in that even though somebody completely dominated a sport it's not major enough for her to be in contention.

So time to end it.

Ireland's greatest ever sportsperson was James Cecil Parke from Clones, County Monaghan.
In tennis this man won the silver medal at the 1908 Olympics, won the Australian open men's tennis championship, was twice a beaten semi-finalist at Wimbledon. He won an Australian open doubles title as well and was a beaten finalist at doubles in Wimbledon, he won the mixed doubles at Wimbledon and also won the Davis Cup.
That not enough for you?
Well he played 30 times for Ireland as a centre at rugby, he represented Ireland in golf, was a first class cricketer and was a multiple national track and field sprint champion.

Nobody comes close.

Could he do it on a rainy night in Stoke though?

ToddDameron

El Tarangu wrote: »

What does the the popularity of the sport have to with it; does the fact that the sport gets its own section in the newspapers mean that soccer players are more impressive athletes then (for example) ultra-Ironman competitors?

The bolded part is true for literally any professional athlete.

Sean Kelly, as others have pointed out, dominated his chosen sport in a more comprehensive way than Roy Keane did, and for just as long.

Do you have any response to any of my other points? You've put forward Denis Irwin and Ferguson's comments about him as evidence of him being as equally as important as Keane. I've shown you Ferguson explaining why Keane was more influential. So any comment?

The popularity of the sport means more pressure because it means more people are invested and the competition to stay at the top is simply greater because the numbers of professionals involved internationally. You can't lose your place on team Ireland because there's someone better in China to fill the position, with club football you can.

The premier league, the champions league and the world cup are some of the most watched events in the world for example. The vast majority of players don't achieve anything in football, so for an Irish player to hold his own for 12 years on the biggest stage in the world is why the popularity of the sport is relevant, because mathematically he had more people to contend with.

I don't think anyone on the thread is saying Roy is a more impressive athlete than an ultra iron man so that comment is just stupid. Sport is about winning, and winning on the biggest stage. Keane has done that consistently.

And I've already acknowledged there are many other sports people deserving to be in the discussion, but for me it's Keane for the reasons stated.

El Tarangu

ToddDameron wrote: »

You can't lose your place on team Ireland because there's someone better in China to fill the position, with club football you can.

Again, this is true of any professional sport

ToddDameron wrote: »

Sport is about winning, and winning on the biggest stage. Keane has done that consistently.

- no he didn't, even within your own terms; won very little at European level, and nothing at international level. He won the English league a bunch of times as part of the the undisputed best team in the country at the time; again, so did John O'Shea and Dennis Irwin (though not as captain, it's true).

ToddDameron

El Tarangu wrote: »

Again, this is true of any professional sport



- no he didn't, even within your own terms; won very little at European level, and nothing at international level. He won the English league a bunch of times as part of the the undisputed best team in the country at the time; again, so did John O'Shea and Dennis Irwin (though not as captain, it's true).

True of what professional sport with the same or greater amount of registered professionals? As the greater number of professionals, the greater the competition.

That's it just ignore all the points again and mention John O' Shea and Irwin for all eternity and ignore that Keane was the biggest influence on the team as supported by the manager and his team mates.

He won the Champions League (very little?!) as part of an historic treble, more would be nice but something tells me even if he won 3 you'd say he should have won 4.

I mentioned the World Cup being the most watched event as proof of the sports popularity, I never said Keane won the World Cup. The premier league is the biggest stage in league football which is what I was referring to, and the champions league the biggest club tournament. You said earlier Keane and Saipan ruined any chance of him being considered the greatest Irish sports person for you personally, so we'll have to just agree to disagree I think.

The Tetrarch

Irish international caps (67)
Roy Keane is 22nd on the list

Irish international goals (9)
Roy Keane is 13th on the list (with 6 others).

Premier League appearances
Shay Given 451 [489 total incl other divisions]
John O'Shea 445 [515]
Richard Dunne 431 [515]
Damien Duff 392 [489]
Stephen Carr 377 [410]
Roy Keane 366 [473 incl 23 Cobh, 10 Celtic]
Rory Delap 359 [504]
Robbie Keane 349 [578]

English League appearances*
Denis Irwin 682
Owen Coyle 666
Dean Kiely 664
Frank Stapleton 618
Gerry Peyton 608
John Sheridan 606
David Kelly 600
Paul Butler 597
Ray Houghton 576

500 to 571
Tony Grealish; Sean O'Driscoll; David O'Leary; John Aldridge; Johnny Giles; Gary Breen; Matt Holland; Kevin Kilbane; Graham Kavanagh; Kenny Cunningham; Tommy Coyne; Gary Kelly; Tony Dunne; Mickey Evans; Alan McLoughlin.
Roy Keane 440

* incl First Division & lower divisions

ToddDameron

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Irish international caps (67)
Roy Keane is 22nd on the list

Irish international goals (9)
Roy Keane is 13th on the list (with 6 others).

Premier League appearances
Shay Given 451 [489 total incl other divisions]
John O'Shea 445 [515]
Richard Dunne 431 [515]
Damien Duff 392 [489]
Stephen Carr 377 [410]
Roy Keane 366 [473 incl 23 Cobh, 10 Celtic]
Rory Delap 359 [504]
Robbie Keane 349 [578]

English League appearances*
Denis Irwin 682
Owen Coyle 666
Dean Kiely 664
Frank Stapleton 618
Gerry Peyton 608
John Sheridan 606
David Kelly 600
Paul Butler 597
Ray Houghton 576

500 to 571
Tony Grealish; Sean O'Driscoll; David O'Leary; John Aldridge; Johnny Giles; Gary Breen; Matt Holland; Kevin Kilbane; Graham Kavanagh; Kenny Cunningham; Tommy Coyne; Gary Kelly; Tony Dunne; Mickey Evans; Alan McLoughlin.
Roy Keane 440

* incl First Division & lower divisions

Is there a point in there somewhere? I'm sure a lot of those players would trade some appearances for more trophies.

The Tetrarch

ToddDameron wrote: »

Is there a point in there somewhere? I'm sure a lot of those players would trade some appearances for more trophies.

Yes, there is a point in there somewhere.

ToddDameron

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Yes, there is a point in there somewhere.

Is it that appearances trump titles? Because that's a fairly stupid point isn't it?

The Tetrarch

ToddDameron wrote: »

Is it that appearances trump titles? Because that's a fairly stupid point isn't it?

Using the word "stupid" is a very solid point to support your case.

ToddDameron

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Using the word "stupid" is a very solid point to support your case.

Posting a list of appearances with no commentary is also a very solid point. Anyway, congrats to Shay Given on being Ireland's greatest ever footballer.

Tuco88

I think people forget just how good D.Irwin was. One of best things about Denis was his fitness, Excellent with F.Ks/Pen his manner was his best part.

He could be put into any team of the moden game today with no issue. I like Roy Keane (Reality is he probably is Irelands greatest sports person)

But for me id take Denis all day every day. Keane suited the 90s/00s style English football. Tough and a mouth on the pitch. I'm not sure he would gel so much in todays game. Unlike Denis Mr consistent.

ToddDameron

Tuco88 wrote: »

I think people forget just how good D.Irwin was. One of best things about Denis was his fitness, Excellent with F.Ks/Pen his manner was his best part.

He could be put into any team of the moden game today with no issue. I like Roy Keane (Reality is he probably is Irelands greatest sports person)

But for me id take Denis all day every day. Keane suited the 90s/00s style English football. Tough and a mouth on the pitch. I'm not sure he would gel so much in todays game. Unlike Denis Mr consistent.

He's probably my favourite Irish player ever along with Brady. No idea how to post links. But this is fun:

https://youtu.be/H_uzU85htH4

partyguinness

Mysterypunter wrote: »

He left to further his career, it's a higher standard which he would not have been able to play, as Ireland were not a test nation, by that reasoning, Roy Keane should never have left Cobh Ramblers

I get that he left to further his career and for the money. Quite happy to ditch Ireland and line out for another country under another anthem and flag to "further his career". No morals or scrupples. Never has the term a sporting traitor seemed more appropriate. Then again he is half English anyway.



Your rather feeble comparison with Roy Keane and Cobh Ramblers is just utter nonsense.

Mysterypunter

Ed Joyce is my next nomination, its Irish sportsperson, not Irish person who played for someone else, read the title, even if you hate Eoin Morgan, he is Irish. Rory McIlroy has to be the answer, 4 majors at a young age, and will contend for more.

Mysterypunter

Arkle would be in contention, but he doesn't meet the criteria of this thread, but Irish is 32 counties, and any person who has represented Ireland, eg Ray Houghton, born in Scotland, Mick McCarthy born in Barnsley, Jack Charlton got honorary citizenship so ge would be near the top.

eagle eye

All this Roy Keane chat when it doesn't matter. He's not even close to James Cecil Parke.
Parke is far and away Ireland's greatest ever sportsman.

Chalk McHugh

1 Stephen Cluxton
2 Christy Ring
3 Jack O Shea
4 Johny Giles
5 P Harrington

* a man that walks out on his country on the eve of our biggest moment doesnt deserve inclusion.

Ten of Swords

Closed for review, will reopen shortly

Necro

Mod:

partyguinness and Randy Archer do not post in this thread again.

Constant back and forth bickering cleaned up

Thread re-opened, keep it clean, on-topic and civil. Thanks

The Lost Sheep

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

1 Stephen Cluxton
2 Christy Ring
3 Henry Shefflin
4 Johny Giles
5 Jack O Shea
6 P Harrington

* a man that walks out on his country on the eve of our biggest moment doesnt deserve inclusion.

Thats very GAA orientated and ignores so much of what irish athletes have contributed on european/global scale.
And what Keane did in 02 cant simply overshadow every single other thing in his career.

Chalk McHugh

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Thats very GAA orientated and ignores so much of what irish athletes have contributed on european/global scale.
And what Keane did in 02 cant simply overshadow every single other thing in his career.

GAA is by far the most important sport in this country and my list reflects that.

And as for keane i wouldn't have him near any list. A wannabe hard man who only a few weeks ago said somebody should be swinging punches at de gea because of a mistake live on Sky ,and all the clowns laugh and think he's hilarious. Always the hard angry man. Pathetic. Character is part of any player/sports person for me and that lad is so far lacking in any class he doesn't even enter the equation.

But hey you have your own list thats fair enough.