Driving in a Bus Lane

dvdman1

Why is driving in a bus lane only a €60 fine? As far as i can see from the RSA is doesnt incur any penalty points.

Doesnt this mean rich people can use bus lanes with relatively little hassle as fines can be paid online with ease now.

Peregrine

€60 for driving in one and €40 for parking on one. No penalty points.

That's the thing about all fines, congestion charges etc. it does just mean some people can afford to carry on doing it. Penalty points or income based fines level the playing field somewhat.

Anyway, it's not something that Gardaí care about so the chances of getting caught and having to pay the €60 are slim to none. That will change with camera based enforcement eventually.

Allinall

dvdman1 wrote: »

Why is driving in a bus lane only a €60 fine? As far as i can see from the RSA is doesnt incur any penalty points.

Doesnt this mean rich people can use bus lanes with relatively little hassle as fines can be paid online with ease now.

Most rich people don't get rich by wasting money on paying fines.

dvdman1

Allinall wrote: »

Most rich people don't get rich by wasting money on paying fines.

The term "rich people" isnt great maybe ill rephrase that to "people who can afford".

Wishbone Ash

People do it because they can get away with it - not because they can afford it. In my experience many of the offending drivers are in commercial vehicles.

average_runner

dvdman1 wrote: »

The term "rich people" isnt great maybe ill rephrase that to "people who can afford".

If that is the case why is there always people moaning about driving fines?

cgcsb

The people parking in bus lanes to go to centra in the PJs are not rich. I often see huge queues of cars in Bus Lanes and the gardaí just swan past and mind their own business. It would be interesting to learn when the last such fine was handed out. It was probably only ever applied when they start enforcing college green.

dvdman1

Rich, poor, upper, middle, lower whatever...
I do think €60 is a rather low penalty for this offence and no penalty points too.

The lack of enforcement is a major reason why people do it...not to waste police time i think a camera system should be in place, wouldn't it pay for itself?

dvdman1

average_runner wrote: »

If that is the case why is there always people moaning about driving fines?

People moaning doesnt make it so.
Anybody who owns a car can afford €60, some cars cost 60 to fill the tank

Dravokivich

dvdman1 wrote: »

People moaning doesnt make it so.
Anybody who owns a car can afford €60, some cars cost 60 to fill the tank

That doesn't really make much sense. You use the money on the fine, can't fill up the tank.

Anyhow, fines don't work. The amount of dog shít in the parks will tell you that.

dvdman1

Dravokivich wrote: »

That doesn't really make much sense. You use the money on the fine, can't fill up the tank.

Anyhow, fines don't work. The amount of dog shít in the parks will tell you that.

I dont think you understand my point about 60euro

"Fines dont work" is your opinion..every jurisdiction in the world use fines...the higher rates in Australia have worked for the most parts

Seth Brundle

dvdman1 wrote: »

I dont think you understand my point about 60euro

"Fines dont work" is your opinion..every jurisdiction in the world use fines...the higher rates in Australia have worked for the most parts

There's no point having a structure for fining drivers when there's no enforcement or will by the gardai

mfceiling

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There's no point having a structure for fining drivers when there's no enforcement or will by the gardai

This...there's a 24 hour bus lane from the spawell down past cheeverstown to the next junction.
The amount of times I've had the horn blared at me cause I had the audacity to merge left (legally), and the person driving in the 24 hour bus lane had to "let me in".

I've seen the garda there a few times and it gives me great delight to see these pricks being pulled in. Oh I couldn't possibly queue like the rest of you as my time is more important.

dvdman1

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There's no point having a structure for fining drivers when there's no enforcement or will by the gardai

Yes i agree greater enforcement is needed, this could be cctv based to avoid wasting police time.

Dravokivich

dvdman1 wrote: »

I dont think you understand my point about 60euro

"Fines dont work" is your opinion..every jurisdiction in the world use fines...the higher rates in Australia have worked for the most parts

If you think I don't understand it, would you be willing to explain it, or do you just want to appear to have something more subtle going on?

It's not an opinion. Fines don't work as a deterrent. We see things people do while driving every day that would result in a fine, yet they persist with it. We see things people do regularly even if they aren't driving that would result in a fine, but still they go on with it.

CrankyHaus

The obvious answer is enforcement with cameras. The technology is available and cheaper every year.
There was an excellent thread recently about a similar topic and the consensus seemed to be that giving other authorities than exclusively An Garda powers to enforce minor traffic rules like Bus-gates was necessary as AGS was not going to do it; it doesn't have the resources for manned enforcement and has some hidebound aversion to technological solutions.

Dravokivich

Eh, they have the Road Policing Unit specifically for road traffic offences.

Duckjob

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The obvious answer is enforcement with cameras. The technology is available and cheaper every year.
There was an excellent thread recently about a similar topic and the consensus seemed to be that giving other authorities than exclusively An Garda powers to enforce minor traffic rules like Bus-gates was necessary as AGS was not going to do it; it doesn't have the resources for manned enforcement and has some hidebound aversion to technological solutions.

Political cowardice. They're afraid of the "look at them, bashing the poor motorist!" section of the electorate.

Zebra3

Peregrine wrote: »

€60 for driving in one and €40 for parking on one. No penalty points.

That's the thing about all fines, congestion charges etc. it does just mean some people can afford to carry on doing it. Penalty points or income based fines level the playing field somewhat.

Anyway, it's not something that Gardaí care about so the chances of getting caught and having to pay the €60 are slim to none. That will change with camera based enforcement eventually.

It used to be of importance in the six weeks coming up to Christmas in Dublin.

Not of course to help the life of PT commuters, but for business owners in the city the economy in general.

cgcsb

Dravokivich wrote: »

Eh, they have the Road Policing Unit specifically for road traffic offences.

they're tax checkers.

Wishbone Ash

dvdman1 wrote: »

... i think a camera system should be in place, wouldn't it pay for itself?

It wouldn't pay for itself as the behaviour would reduce significantly.

07Lapierre

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It wouldn't pay for itself as the behaviour would reduce significantly.

I only drive in a bus lane when I have my bike on the roof of my car!

highdef

mfceiling wrote: »

This...there's a 24 hour bus lane from the spawell down past cheeverstown to the next junction.
The amount of times I've had the horn blared at me cause I had the audacity to merge left (legally), and the person driving in the 24 hour bus lane had to "let me in".

I've seen the garda there a few times and it gives me great delight to see these pricks being pulled in. Oh I couldn't possibly queue like the rest of you as my time is more important.

I can go further with your example. Twice, yes TWICE, whilst waiting legally to merge from the left lane to the slip lane at the end of the 24 hour bus lane beside the War Memorial Gardens from the R148 (ex-N4) inbound to the South Circular Road towards Islandbridge, a Garda on a motorcycle first stopped behind me, put on lights and siren and signaled me to drive straight on (towards Heuston). Both times I did not as that was not where I intended to travel. Both times, the guard then pulled up into the lane to my right (carriageway now completely blocked) and insist that I drive on because I'm both blocking the left lane and "am liable to cause an accident because cars will need to brake behind me" - I'm not kidding. In both cases I questioned why am I being picked on as I was following the rules of the road yet the dozens of vehicles illegally in the 24 hour bus lane who are also disrupting public transport (there were a couple of buses in the bus lane queue) are completely ignored. Again, in both cases, the Guard said that if there is a big queue like that in the bus lane, I should enter the queue at the back "for safety reasons". In response, I asked the guard to put that in writing for me, together with badge number (I'll do it if I have something to back me up). The first occasion it happened, it was with a guard on a motorcycle. He got very thick that I had the audacity for me to request something formal and in writing about an order he had given me so he told me pull in further ahead on the road towards Heuston. I refused, saw a gap and pulled into slip lane towards Islandbridge. He sat behind me until just after the entrance to the school, then indicated me to pull in. He said he thought he noticed that I had a bald tyre. He then spend the next 15 minutes, scrutinising my vehicle. To his annoyance, he found nothing (company vehicle, gets weekly checks by myself). He said that he "would let me away with it this time" and I asked what I was being let away with. He grunted, got on his bike and went off into the sunset.

With the other encounter, it was a Garda van and when I asked for something in writing and badge number for when I am using the 24 hour bus lane under Garda's orders, the Garda van literally sped off with wheels spinning!

Sorry for rambling on there but they are the two strangest encounters with Guards I have ever had and yes, I still do pass all stopped traffic in any bus lane not for use by private vehicles and enter only where it ends. I won't get a ticket for doing this and if a vehicle ever does drive into the back of me whilst I'm waiting to merge, the other driver is obviously not paying attention.

markpb

highdef wrote: »

Sorry for rambling on there but they are the two strangest encounters with Guards I have ever had

The Gardai are a strange bunch but a lot of their behaviour is historical. They were founded after the civil war as guardians of the peace, not a police force and because of that, they police by consent as much as possible. This is in stark contrast to police forces in other countries who take a much more black and white approach to policing.

There are a lot of good things about consent policing but when it comes to road traffic acts, it's falls apart. Enough people are happy with the status quo (keeping cars moving is king and parking on footpath/cycle lanes is the norm) that the Guards don't see it as a problem so they don't police it. The same was true years ago for drink driving. Everyone did it so the guards didn't really try to stop it. Then it became politically and morally unacceptable so there was a major change in enforcement and it was eradicated.

If you sat down and had a conversation with either of those guards, they'd probably accept that you were legally right and the people driving in the bus lane were legally wrong but they wouldn't accept that anything should be done about it. It's the same mentality that allows them to needlessly park on footpaths and cycle lanes. It never occurs to them that it's wrong because the vast majority of people accept it.

magicbastarder

Dravokivich wrote: »

Fines don't work as a deterrent. We see things people do while driving every day that would result in a fine, yet they persist with it.

i would twist that slightly, in that of *course* they don't work if they're not levied. people persist in doing what they do, that you refer to, because they know they won't be fined.

i'm not necessarily arguing that fines *do* work, i'm arguing that you can't say they don't, because we don't have the evidence.

magicbastarder

markpb wrote: »

the Guards don't see it as a problem so they don't police it.

i think i remember a pretty explicit quote from a senior garda that they basically regard roads policing as a done deal, or a low priority, largely because of ireland's low road fatality rate.
and if you were to regard that metric as the only one that mattered (i certainly don't), i guess they'd be right.

Dravokivich

magicbastarder wrote: »

i would twist that slightly, in that of *course* they don't work if they're not levied. people persist in doing what they do, that you refer to, because they know they won't be fined.

i'm not necessarily arguing that fines *do* work, i'm arguing that you can't say they don't, because we don't have the evidence.

The main punishment for speeding is a fine. Twitter is full of people the guards catch speeding. Fines don't seem to stop people from doing it.

During the roadworks on the M7, it was the most publicised speed trap ever, yet people still did it and felt they were right to, regardless of the threat of a fine and the huge numbers of people caught doing it.

magicbastarder

Dravokivich wrote: »

Twitter is full of people the guards catch speeding.

maybe you need to follow the right accounts for that so, i don't see it. but that just shows that twitter will deliver you what you want to hear.
i see rampant red light jumping, bus lane misuse, etc., and often under the noses of gardai, and the gardai don't react. people do it because they know their chances of getting caught is nil.

liamog

Dravokivich wrote: »

The main punishment for speeding is a fine. Twitter is full of people the guards catch speeding. Fines don't seem to stop people from doing it.

We don't have enough enforcement to make fines useful, right now it's so rare to be caught that you think oh no I got caught, rather than on no maybe I shouldn't do that.

A fine of €15 every week for speeding, is going to be way more effective that a fine of €100 and penalty points once a year.

McCrack

highdef wrote: »

I can go further with your example. Twice, yes TWICE, whilst waiting legally to merge from the left lane to the slip lane at the end of the 24 hour bus lane beside the War Memorial Gardens from the R148 (ex-N4) inbound to the South Circular Road towards Islandbridge, a Garda on a motorcycle first stopped behind me, put on lights and siren and signaled me to drive straight on (towards Heuston). Both times I did not as that was not where I intended to travel. Both times, the guard then pulled up into the lane to my right (carriageway now completely blocked) and insist that I drive on because I'm both blocking the left lane and "am liable to cause an accident because cars will need to brake behind me" - I'm not kidding. In both cases I questioned why am I being picked on as I was following the rules of the road yet the dozens of vehicles illegally in the 24 hour bus lane who are also disrupting public transport (there were a couple of buses in the bus lane queue) are completely ignored. Again, in both cases, the Guard said that if there is a big queue like that in the bus lane, I should enter the queue at the back "for safety reasons". In response, I asked the guard to put that in writing for me, together with badge number (I'll do it if I have something to back me up). The first occasion it happened, it was with a guard on a motorcycle. He got very thick that I had the audacity for me to request something formal and in writing about an order he had given me so he told me pull in further ahead on the road towards Heuston. I refused, saw a gap and pulled into slip lane towards Islandbridge. He sat behind me until just after the entrance to the school, then indicated me to pull in. He said he thought he noticed that I had a bald tyre. He then spend the next 15 minutes, scrutinising my vehicle. To his annoyance, he found nothing (company vehicle, gets weekly checks by myself). He said that he "would let me away with it this time" and I asked what I was being let away with. He grunted, got on his bike and went off into the sunset.

With the other encounter, it was a Garda van and when I asked for something in writing and badge number for when I am using the 24 hour bus lane under Garda's orders, the Garda van literally sped off with wheels spinning!

Sorry for rambling on there but they are the two strangest encounters with Guards I have ever had and yes, I still do pass all stopped traffic in any bus lane not for use by private vehicles and enter only where it ends. I won't get a ticket for doing this and if a vehicle ever does drive into the back of me whilst I'm waiting to merge, the other driver is obviously not paying attention.

Get a grip of yourself

Asking a garda "to write it down" and their "badge no"

Id like to say what you are but I can't

In future join the queue or merge at the top like any other, either is not difficult

CrankyHaus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The obvious answer is enforcement with cameras. The technology is available and cheaper every year.
There was an excellent thread recently about a similar topic and the consensus seemed to be that giving other authorities than exclusively An Garda powers to enforce minor traffic rules like Bus-gates was necessary as AGS was not going to do it; it doesn't have the resources for manned enforcement and has some hidebound aversion to technological solutions.

It’s like speeding, which would also be stamped out on lots of routes with average cameras, they simply want to leave the carrot there for people rather than completely stop it.

markpb

McCrack wrote: »

In future join the queue or merge at the top like any other, either is not difficult

Isn’t that what they were waiting to do when the guards arrived?

McCrack

Yes and they failed

Peregrine

McCrack wrote: »

Yes and they failed

Your advice is to not merge at the top but join the bus lane early illegally or.. just merge at the top? What?

markpb

McCrack wrote: »

Yes and they failed

What do you think they should have done? Pushed other cars out of the way? Teleported to the junction? Driven at another time?

McCrack

Peregrine wrote: »

Your advice is to not merge at the top but join the bus lane early illegally or.. just merge at the top? What?

Either are options and neither are difficult to execute for the vast majority of drivers

blackbox

McCrack wrote: »

Either are options and neither are difficult to execute for the vast majority of drivers

Just because its easy doesn't make it right (or even legal)

Wishbone Ash

markpb wrote: »

.. The same was true years ago for drink driving. Everyone did it so the guards didn't really try to stop it. Then it became politically and morally unacceptable so there was a major change in enforcement and it was eradicated....

Drink driving has been illegal since 1933 but it wasn't until the 1980's that breathalyzers became available. Prior to that, the Gardai had no scientific way of detecting a driver on the side of the road and would have had to follow their own opinion which may not have stood up in court.

highdef

McCrack wrote: »

Get a grip of yourself

Asking a garda "to write it down" and their "badge no"

Id like to say what you are but I can't

In future join the queue or merge at the top like any other, either is not difficult

Merging at the top is what I was trying to do in both instances! The Gardai had a problem with me doing this. Until there was a gap, I couldn't merge.

imme

It is idiots who drive in bus lanes when they're not allowed to.

markpb

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Drink driving has been illegal since 1933 but it wasn't until the 1980's that breathalyzers became available. Prior to that, the Gardai had no scientific way of detecting a driver on the side of the road and would have had to follow their own opinion which may not have stood up in court.

That’s true but there was no pressure on drunk drivers in the 80s or, if I remember correctly, the early 90s either.

L1011

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Drink driving has been illegal since 1933 but it wasn't until the 1980's that breathalyzers became available. Prior to that, the Gardai had no scientific way of detecting a driver on the side of the road and would have had to follow their own opinion which may not have stood up in court.

1969, not the 1980s. Electronic ones might have been the 1980s but I suspect it was actually a lot more recent

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2014/1102/655842-breathalyser-comes-to-ireland-1969/

That early tech is where the idea of "blow in the bag" or "being bagged" comes from.

Patser

Out of curiosity, anyone know the rules if you're driving in a bus lane out of hours - say 5am - and you come up to a set of lights that now has a bus only green 1st.

Had that happen to me last week in Dublin, there's a new bus priority light on the North quays, but it was a 0700 - 1900 hrs bus lane. Green light with BUS written on it came on, but light on other side was red - didn't know wether to go or not

Peregrine

Patser wrote: »

Out of curiosity, anyone know the rules if you're driving in a bus lane out of hours - say 5am - and you come up to a set of lights that now has a bus only green 1st.

Had that happen to me last week in Dublin, there's a new bus priority light on the North quays, but it was a 0700 - 1900 hrs bus lane. Green light with BUS written on it came on, but light on other side was red - didn't know wether to go or not

The one on Bachelor's Walk? It changes to 24/7 at Ha'penny Bridge. It should really be 24/7 for the entire length.

Patser

Peregrine wrote: »

The one on Bachelor's Walk? It changes to 24/7 at Ha'penny Bridge. It should really be 24/7 for the entire length.

Yes, but there's a bus only light a good bit back, maybe on Ellis Quay, near Smithfield.

cgcsb

I find it's easier to just go with the crowd rather than try to drive properly in this scenario. Where this is a real pain is on Blackhall Place driving northbound. The car lane becomes a right turning lane(for some reason) and of course the vast majority of cars are driving straight on so they've to get into the bus lane. This means long lines of cars most afternoons. If I do it properly I either get beeped at/shouted at and can't merge so I'll usually just get in the bus lane early. Very frustrating when I'm on the bike or on a bus.

This is standard in Ireland, so many people aren't sure how to drive exactly, poor driving is not corrected by the gardaí so you get all sorts of group behaviour that becomes acceptable such as:
-driving in bus lanes
-driving very slowly in the fast lane not overtaking anything
-driving slowly straight over your stop line at a red light and into a cycling box, ped crossing or yellow box junction before coming to a complete stop
-parking literally wherever you please.

endacl

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you think I don't understand it, would you be willing to explain it, or do you just want to appear to have something more subtle going on?

It's not an opinion. Fines don't work as a deterrent. We see things people do while driving every day that would result in a fine, yet they persist with it. We see things people do regularly even if they aren't driving that would result in a fine, but still they go on with it.

The do work. I don’t drive in bus lanes because I don’t want to pick up a fine. Also, because I’m not ignorant. But, mostly the fine.

I’m sure I’m not the only one. Fines do work. They just don’t work for everybody.

AndrewJRenko

A service tech friend of mine tells me he uses bus lanes all the time to get around to calls. He gets fined once or twice a year, and the saving in time is well worth it for him.

It's a sad indictment of the low levels of enforcement. Penalty points for this and for parking on bus/cycle lanes would be a big improvement. Camera enforcement would be even better.

trellheim

Where this is a real pain is on Blackhall Place driving northbound. The car lane becomes a right turning lane(for some reason) and of course the vast majority of cars are driving straight on so they've to get into the bus lane. This means long lines of cars most afternoons. If I do it properly I either get beeped at/shouted at and can't merge so I'll usually just get in the bus lane early. Very frustrating when I'm on the bike or on a bus.

This is a junction I always try and merge correctly, I find if you drive up and stop and indicate you are let in quickly because people are embarrassed to be driving in the bus lane .

It is a shockingly useless bus lane though, because it is always full of cars the buses go up the regular lane . The major jam point here comes from people waiting to right turn onto Brunswick street or cross from Arbour hill , and this will only get worse as this is now the ONLY route for vehicular traffic to access the south end of Grangegorman

highdef

cgcsb wrote: »

I find it's easier to just go with the crowd rather than try to drive properly in this scenario. If I do it properly I either get beeped at/shouted at and can't merge so I'll usually just get in the bus lane early.

Isn't it almost comical that you almost feel like you are in the wrong in that the people breaking the rules are the ones who are giving out to you for doing the correct thing when in fact if anyone is to beep and shout at others, it should really be you and others in the same situation doing that to those in the bus lane who are in fact blocking you!!!!

cgcsb

trellheim wrote: »

This is a junction I always try and merge correctly, I find if you drive up and stop and indicate you are let in quickly because people are embarrassed to be driving in the bus lane .

It is a shockingly useless bus lane though, because it is always full of cars the buses go up the regular lane . The major jam point here comes from people waiting to right turn onto Brunswick street or cross from Arbour hill , and this will only get worse as this is now the ONLY route for vehicular traffic to access the south end of Grangegorman

The Stoneybatter-Brunswick St-Arbour Hill junction is a literal free for all, who knows why there isn't daily deaths on this, absolutely mental layout and all turns are possible even though Arbour Hill can only fit 1 car up it.

Bus connects promises to fix this by making Brunswick street bike only at that end and allowing access to Lower Grangegorman via north king st and George's Lane.

they could make Arbour hill one way now though and that would simplify the cluster-** of possible turning movements here.