Solicitor to engage with eflow

howyegettinon1

I'm trying to get a solicitor to engage with eflow on my behalf to negotiate a debt claim

I moved house 3 years ago and got notified by old landlord that their tenant signed for a registered letter by mistake and that I've a debt claim in there build up over last few years

It's 69 unpaid tolls, totalling to 215euro. Their number for debt claim is 9k+, I contacted them to get this resolved they came back with 2.5k which is still x11 fold of what I actually owe and far from a reasonable settlement IMO.

I want to get a solicitor(I don’t mind paying for one) who has previously dealt with eflow courts(they have their own day and room in the courts) and will engage with them(out of court) to reduce this down to something bit more reasonable maybe 500-1000, but haven’t been able to find any solicitor that will deal with eflow at all

any suggestions for where I should look? or if you used a solicitor previously for eflow please PM me their contact details

whippet

It’s against the charter here to give recommendations for solicitors.

Generally going to court is the last resort for Eflow .. so they are always open to negotiation.

However .. you need to bear in mind that the penalties are designed to be severe to discourage people not paying. With 60 did unpaid trips it does look like you are the type of toll user the harsh penalties are designed for.

howyegettinon1

That’s fair enough but if I could get pointed in the right direction for the type/category of solicitor I should search for to get legal advice? Or where/how to find a solicitor that has defended people in the court’s vs eflow

I'm not looking to go to court but I think they will entertain the negotiation a bit better if they are dealt with in a legal manner vs me over the phone. They have already dropped from 9k to 2.5 on first phone call so I think there is definitely more room for negotiating if done correctly

Agree on last point

L1011

What do you expect the solicitor to cost?

howyegettinon1

L1011 wrote: »

What do you expect the solicitor to cost?

Without going to court, some legal advice and 2 or 3 letters maybe 200-300 plus vat, if i can get the fine down to 1000 it will pay for itself
Saying that he might just tell me you haven't a hope just pay them and cost me nothing to have the chat

howyegettinon1

This is for anyone else that finds themselves looking for info that I have not been able to find on any forums or threads. This post is about what I found so far and not to be taken as advice in any way

Currently Eflow use courtroom 8 in the four courts. Solicitors hanging around there would probably be the ones most familiar in dealing with the judge(currently Anthony Hopkin) and the prosecution

I found ringing the clerks that deal with room 8 extremely helpful and provided me with a lot of in between the lines information(they are not allowed to favour any solicitor or give out any names) on what to look for, where and why, outcomes of similar cases etc… etc…

The cases you see in the news getting hit with the full bill are mostly no shows, cases that are struck out are usually settled outside the courtroom and settlements are never published. The no shows get the full whack of 5k per incident and max of 5 incidents, there are plenty of people getting 25k judgements against them for not showing up

The current judge is apparently very thorough and doesn’t seem to give much lenience to eflow, cases do get struck out on technicalities (papers not server correctly etc..) it’s not as bad as the papers would like you to think

Two case can be brought against you, first the civil(this is what they are trying to do with me, although it hasn’t gone that far) if you continue to ignore letters, court dates etc, they will get a judgement against you, this allows sheriff to come and take anything from you, cars valuables, money from property you sell etc..)

After the civil case they will then bring a criminal case against you for not paying a fine, which caries its own penalties and you still have to pay the fine from the civil case

It seems to be a good idea to engage with eflow before it gets as far as the courts, eflow do not want to bring you to court and incur further expenses and risk losing a case if it can be settled out of court, saves both parties risk and legal expenses

That’s all, it’s a bit of scattered stuff jotted down from phone calls that hopefully someone else might find helpful in dealing with eflow

I got all the info I needed and for now will proceed to engage with eflow without a solicitor to reduce the bill further, if they won’t budge I was advised the conversation is free and it’s about 50euro per letter from solicitor. I will update here if I get a decent outcome

howyegettinon1

One more thing, looking for a solicitor

What I was trying to find was debt solicitors etc.. game of chance is all that is if you don’t have recomendations

If I was to do it again, I would search for news articles in relation to the matter(eflow in this case) pick the ones that won their cases or had good outcomes, look for the names of solicitors that defended them, if they are not printed, enquire the courts about who represented the defendant on such date and case

hullaballoo

Thanks for posting back. Hopefully that will be of use in general terms.

Just to point out that it's Judge Anthony Halpin in case anyone thinks Hannibal Lecter is dealing with eflow summonses.

howyegettinon1

hullaballoo wrote: »

Thanks for posting back. Hopefully that will be of use in general terms.

Just to point out that it's Judge Anthony Halpin in case anyone thinks Hannibal Lecter is dealing with eflow summonses.

Good spot, i had that written down but typed hopkin

micar

Did it even dawn on you that you were not paying the toll fees?

I would get 3 letters

1) old landlord saying when you moved out.
2) current landlord when you moved in
3) utility/bank statement as close to the date that you moved.

Get a copy document which shows that someone else signed for the letter......their signature and your signature won't match.....also it would be signed by someone other than the addressee.

Claw Hammer

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

Without going to court, some legal advice and 2 or 3 letters maybe 200-300 plus vat, if i can get the fine down to 1000 it will pay for itself
Saying that he might just tell me you haven't a hope just pay them and cost me nothing to have the chat

€200 to 300 Euro plus VAT? Some chance! It'll take over an hour just to carry out the anti money-laundering activities. Add that to the cost of reviewing your papers and researching the law involved. Then you want to write letters which presumably will cause letters to come back. You have got to be joking!

howyegettinon1

Claw Hammer wrote: »

€200 to 300 Euro plus VAT? Some chance! It'll take over an hour just to carry out the anti money-laundering activities. Add that to the cost of reviewing your papers and researching the law involved. Then you want to write letters which presumably will cause letters to come back. You have got to be joking!

I had solicitors stand up in court that price, can see plenty of time being burned up here if the solicitor is not familiar with eflow and charging all the above.

If they know the courtroom well, they will tell you right away if it's worth your while and not going to charge you(I'm sure some will do) anywhere near what you are thinking for writting a letter or two. If it comes to getting a solicitor engaged I will post back the quote here

Claw Hammer

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

I had solicitors stand up in court that price, can see plenty of time being burned up here if the solicitor is not familiar with eflow and charging all the above.

If they know the courtroom well, they will tell you right away if it's worth your while and not going to charge you(I'm sure some will do) anywhere near what you are thinking for writting a letter or two. If it comes to getting a solicitor engaged I will post back the quote here

You may have had solicitors stand up in court, who were already there on the minor criminal matters. Entirely different in a civil case. The anti money-laundering requirements alone required the solicitor to get your passport or driving licence plus utility bill. These have to be copied and put on file. The solicitor then is to interview you obtain the full story and examine all the documentation you have in relation to the matter. Again all of it will have to be copied and put on file. After that letter is have to be written and replied to. There is several hours work alone there. No solicitor works for €75 a hour.

smelly sock

Offer them the 1k via email and registered letter. I think they will take it.

Did tou think you where going to get away without paying tolls forever?

howyegettinon1

smelly sock wrote: »

Offer them the 1k via email and registered letter. I think they will take it.

Did tou think you where going to get away without paying tolls forever?

I sent an email this morning, offering to pay 215euro that I owe plus 500 on top to cover their costs to date. I outlined that I have letters/statements from both landlords stating that I did not live there and that I had not received any of the letters as a result until I was contacted about the registered letter. I also said the tolls changes were not incurred by me as I do not live near the m50 and were by people often borrowing the car due to it having a towbar, I have writen statements to support the same



They called back about 30 min later to say they either want the 2.5k or go to court for the 9k. No couter offer and advised to seek legal advice. I asked for this in writing and they refused saying you need to keep your own records of this, I will be sending it again as a registered letter requesting an official refusal of the offer in writing. So looks like I'll have to have a chat with solicitor to see if I have a case



It's hard to find any good outcomes as the goal of the newspapers is to put the fear into the people so they pay the tolls but here is a girl who was shy of 200 unpaid tolls and settled 17k down to 3 in court, representing herself.

Schorpio

I think you eFlow should probably respond to your offer in writing - even if it's a 'no thanks'. They are not obliged to give you a counter offer though.

I'm just curious as why the people who supposedly borrowed the car didn't feel the need to pay the toll? They could easily have done so on the website - you wouldn't have needed to have done it yourself. And whether any of them have offered to contribute to the fine?

Not trying to judge (honestly!), but the situation sounds suspicious, and would do in court too. To summarize:

• You aren't personally responsible for any of the unpaid tolls.
• You lent your vehicle to a number of individuals, none of whom decided to pay the toll, despite going through the toll 69 times.
• You moved house 3 years ago, and none of the correspondence from eFlow reached you, until someone at your old address mistakenly signed for a registered letter, which was then forwarded to you.

Did all of the unpaid toll trips occur before you moved house? Or did some occur in the intervening 3 years?

howyegettinon1

Schorpio wrote: »

I think you eFlow should probably respond to your offer in writing - even if it's a 'no thanks'. They are not obliged to give you a counter offer though.

I'm just curious as why the people who supposedly borrowed the car didn't feel the need to pay the toll? They could easily have done so on the website - you wouldn't have needed to have done it yourself. And whether any of them have offered to contribute to the fine?

Not trying to judge (honestly!), but the situation sounds suspicious, and would do in court too. To summarize:

• You aren't personally responsible for any of the unpaid tolls.
• You lent your vehicle to a number of individuals, none of whom decided to pay the toll, despite going through the toll 69 times.
• You moved house 3 years ago, and none of the correspondence from eFlow reached you, until someone at your old address mistakenly signed for a registered letter, which was then forwarded to you.

Did all of the unpaid toll trips occur before you moved house? Or did some occur in the intervening 3 years?

Thanks, I know they aren’t obliged to give a counter offer I was hoping they meet me in the middle at 1k or there abouts and I just pay them and forget about this.

It probably sounds suspicious because that’s the story I am putting forward to them to avoid paying the ridiculous fine or going to court and attempting to distance myself from any liability.
Truth is I haven’t bothered paying for the toll for a long time (I did actually pay it here and there if I actually stopped in a garage or something).
I did actually move from that house and Dublin 3 years and the car remained registered to there and I know the tenants have been sending the toll letters back or putting them in the bin until the registered letter arrived and got signed for.
The 69 trips do sound bad but that’s each way, so it’s only 30 trips over 2-3 years to Dublin, so once a month I missed a 6euro payment that they now managed to add up to 9,000 euros


So that’s where I am now and how it got here
I know I should have been paying the toll and should have registered for a tag or something but just wasn’t anywhere near my priority’s so got ignored and abandoned altogether, I’ve no problem paying back what I owe and then some but not to the tune of 2.5k which is x10+ of what I actually owe

Rodney Bathgate

Meet in the middle? You mean 4.5k then.

Sorry but your 715 offer then subsequent 1k is well short of half of 2.5k, so it doesn’t look like you want to meet in middle either.

howyegettinon1

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Meet in the middle? You mean 4.5k then.

Sorry but your 715 offer then subsequent 1k is well short of half of 2.5k, so it doesn’t look like you want to meet in middle either.

I owe 215euro not 9k, disproportionate is not even the word here.
You wouldn’t even take a drug dealer or a loan shark seriously if he(or she:D ) told you that you borrowed 200 and now you owe 9k. I think anyone with a bit or cop on and sense of reality would agree on that

No, I don’t want to meet in the middle even at 1250 its still x6 times the original amount but I will be willing to pay that to close this off and move on

Just because someone pulls a ridiculous figure out of thin air and then tells you a lower ridiculous figure you could pay instead, it's supposed make sense and sound like a good deal?

KildareP

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

I’ve no problem paying back what I owe and then some but not to the tune of 2.5k which is x10+ of what I actually owe

That's probably not going to wash with eFlow (or the courts) to be honest.

Technically, you owe them:
- €3.10 for each journey
- another €3.00 for each journey not paid by 8PM the following day
- another €42.00 for each journey not paid within 14 days
- another €105.00 for each journey not paid within 56 days

Assuming all 69 journeys lie outside the 56 day timeframe, you owe €153.10 per journey or €10,569.90 in total before any legal costs are added in:
https://www.eflow.ie/help-guidance/faqs/penalties/ive-missed-the-payment-de-1/

As Schorpio mentions, your story just doesn't sound in any way believable and might well be received as an insult. How lucky do you feel getting out of €2.5k on a technicality versus being hit with the full extent of all fines plus costs?

micar

You are the registered owner of the car.

The toll charges, although not incurred by you, are your responsibility.

You cannot prove that you were not the driver when the tolls weren't paid. We all could just say that.

You've also said that you were aware that you had not been paying the tolls yourself. It might be fine to register your car with them and set up a DDM to pay the toll via your bank account.

Did the people who borrowed your car have their own insurance policy in place allowing them to drive your car. I would be very careful bringing this up.

The tact you need to take is that you were not residing at the address they hold and any letters sent to that address were not forwarded to you.

Out of curiosity, how do they hold your old address. Is it through address the car was registered under or the address where the motor tax disc is sent to?

Also, stop letting people borrow your car cos you'll may end up going through all this again.

Atlantic Dawn

micar wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how do they hold your old address. Is it through address the car was registered under or the address where the motor tax disc is sent to?

Fines go to registered owner of the car.

Pinoy adventure

L1011 wrote: »

What do you expect the solicitor to cost?

€1000 + vat for half a days work.
I still have my receipt

joeysoap

I want to get a solicitor(I don’t mind paying for one)




Made me laugh anyway

smelly sock

Could you ask your friends to pay the tolls they owe?

mikemac2

As well as sorting out this case have a think about ditching these friends. Even if the address was correct and you received letters swiftly were they expecting you to pay up every time ?

silver2020

Get a toll tag for your vehicle, tell them you now have a toll tag. Repeat the offer you have made along with the reasons for the non payment previously. Send this offer by registered post.

If they refuse it, inform them that you will attend court and present your correspondence to the court and allow for the court to decide on a fair outcome.

endacl

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

It's hard to find any good outcomes as the goal of the newspapers is to put the fear into the people so they pay the tolls

Seriously? You think the newspapers are in cahoots with eflow? That’s your angle?

While I think the op is talking nonsense, I also think a cheque for 2500 is the best outcome.

They will win, You will have to pay. The question then becomes

A, pay 2500 and be done with it

B, pay 2500 pls costs of both legal teams. That's probably a Grand either side easily so 4500 or 5000 k.

Fyi this thing of offering someone a reduction for paying outside court doesn't wash with judges. The judge will order the 2500 if that's what eflow were accepting. They won't go to the full amount as a punishment, that's not the courts job.

howyegettinon1

endacl wrote: »

Seriously? You think the newspapers are in cahoots with eflow? That’s your angle?

Obviously not, but you know yourself what sells or gets views its not the happy stuff

ED E

The fact that the OP thinks they owe 215 suggests they're not seeing this any way rationally and I suspect the good advice being offered here will go right over their head.


Pay the 2.5k and stop acting the maggot.

howyegettinon1

joeysoap wrote: »

I want to get a solicitor(I don’t mind paying for one)




Made me laugh anyway

I grew up on legal aid

Guy:Incognito

smelly sock wrote: »

Could you ask your friends to pay the tolls they owe?

mikemac2 wrote: »

As well as sorting out this case have a think about ditching these friends. Even if the address was correct and you received letters swiftly were they expecting you to pay up every time ?

micar wrote: »

Also, stop letting people borrow your car cos you'll may end up going through all this again.

There are no "friends"

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

T

It probably sounds suspicious because that’s the story I am putting forward to them to avoid paying the ridiculous fine or going to court and attempting to distance myself from any liability.

Truth is I haven’t bothered paying for the toll for a long time (I did actually pay it here and there if I actually stopped in a garage or something).

The 69 trips do sound bad but that’s each way, so it’s only 30 trips over 2-3 years to Dublin, so once a month I missed a 6euro payment that they now managed to add up to 9,000 euros


I know I should have been paying the toll and should have registered for a tag or something but just wasn’t anywhere near my priority’s so got ignored and abandoned altogether,

endacl

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

Obviously not, but you know yourself what sells or gets views its not the happy stuff

Y’know....

My horse would generally be on the low to middling side, but you’re really bringing out the ‘hope the court throws the book, bookshelf and library at him’ side of me.

I’d adjust the attitude. Not legal advice. Just advice.

howyegettinon1

KildareP wrote: »

That's probably not going to wash with eFlow (or the courts) to be honest.

Technically, you owe them:
- €3.10 for each journey
- another €3.00 for each journey not paid by 8PM the following day
- another €42.00 for each journey not paid within 14 days
- another €105.00 for each journey not paid within 56 days

Assuming all 69 journeys lie outside the 56 day timeframe, you owe €153.10 per journey or €10,569.90 in total before any legal costs are added in:
https://www.eflow.ie/help-guidance/faqs/penalties/ive-missed-the-payment-de-1/

As Schorpio mentions, your story just doesn't sound in any way believable and might well be received as an insult. How lucky do you feel getting out of €2.5k on a technicality versus being hit with the full extent of all fines plus costs?

Im testing the water, if i can pay less it would be great. I've no intentions of going to court unless its 90% will be throw out on a technicality which i doubt it will, best case judge agrees on 2k im still stuck with a big legal bill and will probably be paying out close to 3-4k in the end

endacl

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

Im testing the water, if i can pay less it would be great. I've no intentions of going to court unless its 90% will be throw out on a technicality which i doubt it will, best case judge agrees on 2k im still stuck with a big legal bill and will probably be paying out close to 3-4k in the end

The court won’t negotiate a figure. It’ll just rule as to whether you owe it or not.
And you do owe it.

Rodney Bathgate

I hope the eFlow barrister reads out this thread in court when the OP tries to claim it was other people driving his car each time.

howyegettinon1

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

I hope the eFlow barrister reads out this thread in court when the OP tries to claim it was other people driving his car each time.

I would pay to see that myself to be honest

howyegettinon1

endacl wrote: »

Y’know....

My horse would generally be on the low to middling side, but you’re really bringing out the ‘hope the court throws the book, bookshelf and library at him’ side of me.

I’d adjust the attitude. Not legal advice. Just advice.

Im actually curious which part of this thread brought the book throwing part out in you?

Rodney Bathgate

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

Im actually curious which part of this thread brought the book throwing part out in you?

Probably the lies.

bucketybuck

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that those people who ignore toll charges also think that the well known penalties are unfair and excessive. Because of course they do.

I do hope that the OP finds a good solicitor, though I suspect when the time comes that he may decide that their bill is unfair as well.

howyegettinon1

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Probably the lies.

Sure how else are you ever gonna get out of stuff like this, no point going to court to say you did it?

Atlantic Dawn

What will you do if they produce photographic evidence of your car going through and the person driving the car looks 99.89% exactly like you?

JJJackal

This comment is meant to be inflammatory - but you did know you didnt pay the many tolls although you didnt get the letter? And your "friends" who borrowed the car knew they hadnt paid?

Its not like its a 2 or 3 tolls

I think if you get out of it for 1500 you will be doing well

Rodney Bathgate

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

Sure how else are you ever gonna get out of stuff like this, no point going to court to say you did it?

Would love to see you try it and get done for perjury.

howyegettinon1

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What will you do if they produce photographic evidence of your car going through and the person driving the car looks 99.89% exactly like you?

Ill shave the beard :P

Rodney Bathgate

JJJackal wrote: »

This comment is meant to be inflammatory - but you did know you didnt pay the many tolls although you didnt get the letter? And your "friends" who borrowed the car knew they hadnt paid?

Its not like its a 2 or 3 tolls

I think if you get out of it for 1500 you will be doing well

He admitted he was lying about friends borrowing the car. He made the journeys, he knew he wasn’t paying for the trips.

JJJackal

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

He admitted he was lying about friends borrowing the car. He made the journeys, he knew he wasn’t paying for the trips.

Missed that part! I didnt read the middle of the thread

Wesser

Did you not notice that you werent.paying your tolls?
Big signs up everywhere on the m50....
Didnt you ever wonder!!

L1011

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

Im testing the water, if i can pay less it would be great. I've no intentions of going to court unless its 90% will be throw out on a technicality which i doubt it will, best case judge agrees on 2k im still stuck with a big legal bill and will probably be paying out close to 3-4k in the end

You are quite likely to be looking at a legal bill equal to or higher than any discount you get; or indeed the entire discounted amount they have offered to you even if it was thrown out.

howyegettinon1

I dont think ill get much more from this thread other than entertainment

I would like to thank those who posted practical and constructive advice without passing too much judgement, you helped me make my decision

Sounds like ill have to couch up the 2.5k or close enough to it, sure its only money can always make more
Definitely not going to court unless im advised by a solicitor

To everyone else it was a pleasure getting you all hot and heavy