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If Ireland gets to keep the €13 billion Apple money tomorrow

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    #122
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Just to be clear here, this is like the Scissor Sisters walking free from court: ourselves and Apple, we're like Linda and Charlotte.

    This is a legal vindication, and while it's probably even true to say that Ireland's 1991 Tax Ruling did not amount to state aid, we absolutely did conspire with MNCs to avail of a lacuna in US Tax Law where they were allowed to be tax-resident in no jurisdiction. We just didn't do it on a selective basis which would have amounted to state aid.

    The law is on our side, but lets not start doing moral victory laps. We were letting large multinationals avoid their tax obligations for years.
    Who's doing victory dances? We can't treat justice systems like episodic TV where your version of the good guys guys prevail. You have to prove your case. They didn't according to the court and it's over.


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    #123
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    ah so you have an ideological issue with the tax policy.

    Personally i prefer the overwhelmingly financially positive input MNCs offer to the irish economy yearly. One in seven irish workers work for a MNC

    MNC generate an income in the irish economy similar to that €13 billion ruling... ANNUALLY

    Be wary that the grass is always greener yada yada ......

    again, sme's are the largest employers in the state, which also pay taxes, and generally far more than mnc's


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    #124
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Who's doing victory dances? We can't treat justice system like episodic TV where your version of the good guys guys prevail. You have to prove your case. They didn't according to the court and it's over.


    ITs not, they can appeal to the highest court in Europe.....this could be floating around for another 2 years


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    #125
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    again, sme's are the largest employers in the state, which also pay taxes, and generally far more than mnc's


    How many SME are supported in Ireland by the people working in MNC?


    On average you could say everyone in a MNC is making let say 50k per year. Thats 50k which is pumped back into market in food/clothes/houses/cars/etc etc etc. This keeps a huge amount of SME going


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    #126
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    How many SME are supported in Ireland by the people working in MNC?


    On average you could say everyone in a MNC is making let say 50k per year. Thats 50k which is pumped back into market in food/clothes/houses/cars/etc etc etc. This keeps a huge amount of SME going

    i.e. its a symbiotic relationship, but tax obligations dont reflect this


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    #127
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    Out of interest and it might have already be answered . who is paying the the costs incurred with holding the money in the escrow account?

    I believe that it has cost millions.


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    #128
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    ITs not, they can appeal to the highest court in Europe.....this could be floating around for another 2 years
    The judgement has been nullified and was deemed unproven. That would not bode well at all for an appeal. It's also not the first one they've lost on similar grounds. They'll move on to other targets.


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    #129
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Duke of Url wrote: »
    Out of interest and it might have already be answered . who is paying the the costs incurred with holding the money in the escrow account?

    I believe that it has cost millions.
    Managed by the NTMA, they'll get their fees.


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    #130
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,213 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    again, sme's are the largest employers in the state, which also pay taxes, and generally far more than mnc's

    is that creaking the sound of goal posts moving???

    sme (of which i am one!) have some of the most wide ranging availability of tax reliefs in the country.

    If they arent paying the tax, the consumer / worker is..... round and round we go.


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    #131
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,625 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are
    Better that than to lose the 500k jobs that are directly or indirectly related to FDI


    Even if you (falsely) dont belioeve the indirect jobs are important, there are still 318k jobs directly from MNC/FDI.


    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2017/ae/


    Can you imagine the impact of losing 318k jobs on the tax take? Given the nature of the MNCs we get here (pharma, tech, finance) they are likely to be high paid too.


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    #132
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    is that creaking the sound of goal posts moving???

    sme (of which i am one!) have some of the most wide ranging availability of tax reliefs in the country.

    If they arent paying the tax, the consumer / worker is..... round and round we go.

    exactly, when the system runs out of options, it defaults to where it can only go to, you!


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    #133
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Better that than to lose the 500k jobs that are directly or indirectly related to FDI


    Even if you (falsely) dont belioeve the indirect jobs are important, there are still 318k jobs directly from MNC/FDI.


    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2017/ae/


    Can you imagine the impact of losing 318k jobs on the tax take? Given the nature of the MNCs we get here (pharma, tech, finance) they are likely to be high paid too.

    whos talking about losing jobs!!! maybe change the way we accept some of this revenue!


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    #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Europe trying to play the high and mighty card is a load of poo. They have the hump that number 1 Ireland has so many MNC installed and number 2 it is Ireland, how can they be beating the bigger boys!!
    Just got a little sick in my mouth


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    #135
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,625 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    whos talking about losing jobs!!! maybe change the way we accept some of this revenue!
    The loss of jobs would be inevitable if we tried to keep this money that is not ours


    Now the message to big MNCs is clear. Ireland's got your back. Now put your jobs here!!


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    #136
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ELM327 wrote: »
    The loss of jobs would be inevitable if we tried to keep this money that is not ours


    Now the message to big MNCs is clear. Ireland's got your back. Now put your jobs here!!

    and by the looks of things, if we keep playing this game, we will maintain our current path of further destabilization politically, economically, socially, environmentally etc etc etc, i.e. if you have kids or grandkids, maybe its a good idea to be more concerned for them!


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    #137
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    whos talking about losing jobs!!! maybe change the way we accept some of this revenue!


    You hit the tax the companies will pull out.



    Do you not understand?


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    #138
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    and by the looks of things, if we keep playing this game, we will maintain our current path of further destabilization politically, economically, socially, environmentally etc etc etc, i.e. if you have kids or grandkids, maybe its a good idea to be more concerned for them!


    What are you talking about?


    With the MNC in Ireland our children finally have the chance of getting jobs in Ireland. Not going to the US/UK and trying to get a job.


    They move out and the country is back to send young people off everyewhere to get jobs


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    #139
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    You hit the tax the companies will pull out.



    Do you not understand?

    whos hitting tax, again, maybe change the way we receive it, maintaining our current rate, baring in mind, a large proportion of wealth in mnc's is in their assets, stocks and shares etc. its also good to bare in mind, some of the main technologies being sold by companies such as apple, were originally invented and developed in publicly funded institutions, and id say the majority of their staff were publicly educated, do you think youre paying enough?


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    #140
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    What are you talking about?


    With the MNC in Ireland our children finally have the chance of getting jobs in Ireland. Not going to the US/UK and trying to get a job.


    They move out and the country is back to send young people off everyewhere to get jobs

    whos talking about them moving out!


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    #141
    Robert McGrath
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭Robert McGrath


    According to Seamus Coffey, it’s the US Treasury that is the big winner here

    Part of Trump’s tax bill a couple of years ago imposed a 15% tax on these profits outside the US.

    If Apple have to pay 12.5% to Ireland, then the IRS would only get 2.5%.

    If Apple don’t have to pay anything in Ireland or the rest of the EU, then the IRS gets to keep the lot.

    Either way, Apple has to pay the tax. The only question is which country benefits


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    #142
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    whos hitting tax, again, maybe change the way we receive it, maintaining our current rate, baring in mind, a large proportion of wealth in mnc's is in their assets, stocks and shares etc. its also good to bare in mind, some of the main technologies being sold by companies such as apple, were originally invented and developed in publicly funded institutions, and id say the majority of their staff were publicly educated, do you think youre paying enough?


    It seems you dont actually understand what the MNC do.


    You do realize most if not all of them are currently funding education programs in Ireland?


    They also fund events all over Ireland, local community events etc. As soon as Facebook started they set up a local fund which people in area can apply for grants.



    All of this is done without asking them to. They have invested millions into the likes of UCD./Trinity etc. As far as I remember they got a huge super computer on the cheap years ago.



    Dell run a programs for all education so they get cheap laptop/desktop etc.



    Are you aware of any of this?


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    #143
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Managed by the NTMA, they'll get their fees.

    As in they will get reimbursed in relation to the costs?


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    #144
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 17,996 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Brilliant. And you had these idiots SF, PBP saying we should of spent the money already.


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    #145
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    It seems you dont actually understand what the MNC do.


    You do realize most if not all of them are currently funding education programs in Ireland?


    They also fund events all over Ireland, local community events etc. As soon as Facebook started they set up a local fund which people in area can apply for grants.



    All of this is done without asking them to. They have invested millions into the likes of UCD./Trinity etc. As far as I remember they got a huge super computer on the cheap years ago.



    Dell run a programs for all education so they get cheap laptop/desktop etc.



    Are you aware of any of this?

    yes, how much of your taxes heads into our educational system?


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    #146
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Robert McGrath wrote: »
    According to Seamus Coffey, it’s the US Treasury that is the big winner here

    Part of Trump’s tax bill a couple of years ago imposed a 15% tax on these profits outside the US.

    If Apple have to pay 12.5% to Ireland, then the IRS would only get 2.5%.

    If Apple don’t have to pay anything in Ireland or the rest of the EU, then the IRS gets to keep the lot.

    Either way, Apple has to pay the tax. The only question is which country benefits


    They don't have to send the money back to the US, they can just keep in Europe.


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    #147
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    yes, how much of your taxes heads into our educational system?


    :P:P:P


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    #148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    screamer wrote: »
    We’ve already fecked them they’ll be paying off the bailout loans for generations. We shouldn’t thInk so short term and self interested. Life for future generations is gonna get tougher, not easier.

    I won’t be here in future generations.


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    #149
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Mod:

    There is a thread in Current Affairs discussing the court case:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058096273

    As this thread has now become a duplication of this it is now closed.

    Further discussion on the outcome of the case belongs in Current Affairs.


This discussion has been closed.
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