Couple Ordered to Demolish House - any update?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566313#Comment_121566313

And I fear they just might succeed with that argument- we’ve all seen pathetic excuses for lots of things in courts, both civil and criminal, get accepted by Judges.

Im against them retaining any part of the house - it was pure blaggardism on their part, if that’s such a word.

Let them eat cake now- if they can afford to build without permission they can afford to knock it and start the right way, just like everyone else has to do

Gusser09

Anything else on this case yet? I'd imagine nobody wants to proceed with enforcement at this stage but Meath CoCo can't be seen to back down.

It makes this case all the more laughable. https://selfbuild.ie/news/tipp-man-told-to-demolish-log-home-will-get-social-housing-supports/

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978320#Comment_121978320

"Meath CoCo can't be seen to back down"

I don't know about that. The number of people that actually have the cash and the neck to build a mansion, knowing the risks, must be tiny. I would imagine this case will just keep going to the back of the queue for the next few years, and then eventually dropped (with some kind of rule that says 20 years living there means they can stay). It's not fair, but I think they took a risk that seems to have paid off.

It's unlikely to happen again, nobody will get a mortgage to build whatever they want in a field, Council will be much more proactive in future (you would hope).

micar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978570#Comment_121978570

Is there a 20 year rule?

The Murrays need to be made an example of.

Meath CoCo need to make sure the house is demolished .

allowing legal wrangling to go on for so long can't be seen as a precedent to get away with building without planning considering they were refused a house half the size.

Anaki r2d2

I doubt it will ever be demolished. Surely it’s embarrassing for MCC? But at this stage I would think multiple staff turnovers, mean MCC would just like it all to go away.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981350#Comment_121981350

No there's no 20 year rule.

Unauthorized development proceedings are under way from a long time ago

Kaisr Sose

MCC have to follow the law, and in this case its clear the house was built on land that has a no build clause.

It should have been demolished ages ago and the saga that surrounds it's non-demolition is not a good precedent for land with similar restrictions on use.

It is bottom of the barrel stuff that the family are trying to use the housing crisis as a reason to stop demolition. This is just hypocritical. Part of the reason there is a housing crisis is down to the fact that people/developers cannot build anywhere they want. They must respect the planning process.

Spanish Eyes

Evict them, use whatever planning exemption is available (there are some I think for fast track house building, could be wrong), convert it into flats and give them to housing list applicants. CPO the site.

Win, win.

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981350#Comment_121981350

No rule, not what I meant per se, more that the council might just have to take this one on the chin. As for precedent, I believe the Murrays had a mortgage on the property, that wouldn't happen these days with new lending rules, and I doubt someone would put 400-500k fo their own cash on building a house that could be demolished quickly this time round. I would love it if they rolled in with bulldozers and flattended the whole thing, but c'mon, this is Ireland.

Anybody know where Pamela Flood is living these days?

Gusser09

I'd imagine building the house to this size without PP is the worst decision they have ever made. If it were a 180sqm bungalow they most likely have public support.

Must be some pressure they are under all the same.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981783#Comment_121981783

Mortgage requirements that require the property to have legal planning permission are not new. They've been around for decades. I'd be very surprised if they had gotten a mortgage for this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981602#Comment_121981602

Lose, lose for housing list applicants who find themselves living in the back of beyond with no access to transport, schools, shops, services. There's a reason why planning permission wasn't given at this location.

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985505#Comment_121985505

I thought everyone had a car out in the sticks these days. If I was offered a nice apartment instead of a hotel room/overcrowded unsuitable current digs, what do you think I'd do?

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985505#Comment_121985505

Read a comment somewhere from a guy that claimed to know a bit about their situation, said they got a mortgage to build by spoofing a bit on the application. Could have been spoofing himself of course.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987801#Comment_121987801

In my day, the bank would look for confirmation from the solicitor doing the conveyancing that planning was in order. Hard to spoof that.

AndrewJRenko

It's not just about 'having a car'. It's about condemning people to car-bound lifestyles while our planet is melting around us.

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987870#Comment_121987870

Yeah, the Murrays, notoriously law abiding.

sydthebeat

Electric cars are a thing aren't they?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978570#Comment_121978570

Why would you need to build a mansion? At least first off. Buy some rural land with no hope of getting planning, build a small house on it without permission or mortgage, be allowed to break the law, then sell it and use the proceeds to build a bigger house. Repeat ad infinitum. Profit.

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988680#Comment_121988680

The selling it part would be difficult. But agree with what you're saying, it absolutely shouldn't be allowed, and their house should be demolished. I just can't see it happening.

dubrov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978320#Comment_121978320

I think you are missing the point. That guy lost a house that he can't live in and can't pass to his kids. Sure he might get social housing supports but not to the same level. That sort of penalty sends a strong message to not even attempt to go down this route.

The Murray's case sends out the message to have a go and even if you get caught you can tie up any demolition in the courts and get away with it. I'd say there are many more Murrays happening right now

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988383#Comment_121988383

It's nothing to do with how law abiding or otherwise they are. It's about having a solicitor who is prepared to lie to a bank about planning permission, knowing well that the bank will take them to the cleaners if an issue arises.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990018#Comment_121990018

I thought it was cash! a self build.

Anaki r2d2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987878#Comment_121987878

Do you know where Bohermeen is? It is a typical rural location like many many more in Ireland.

With a school, shops and very easy access to the M3. It's a fairly desirable location in Meath. Strong community clubs, athletics and cycling to name but a few. Local schools in Navan Kells and Athboy,all close by.

Many people desire to live there - you should visit Bohermeen and lecture the locals on their planet killing lifestyles. There is a community hall that you could lecture from. Right beside the athletics track

The house in question was built without planning it needs to go.

I don't recall reading that planning was denied for the eco reasons you quote. There are many other single build houses in that area. Those house holders choose to follow the regulations.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987878#Comment_121987878

The world is not melting and you have no clue about the commuting patterns of rural dwellers but that won't stop you preaching to us about what you observed from the saddle of your cargo bike.

monseiur

In the rather unlikely event that Meath Co. Co. ends up demolishing the house will they be obliged to provide alternative housing for the Murray's ? On what grounds was planning refused on same site for a smaller dwelling ?

Planning generally in this country is one big mess and needs a root & branch overhaul. There are no hard & fast rules - different planners even in one County Council have different criteria / standards and seem to make rules up as they go along hence the reason so many get overturned on appeal to An Bord Pleanala

I am not privy to the details of the circumstances of the Murrays but assuming they had housing need, had their own site and were financially in position to build their own home (as per their original planning application which was refused) On what grounds were their application refused. Did Meath Co. Co. offer them an alternative site or indeed house instead ?

I have a funny feeling that they were so pis$ed off with the planning office (like thousands genuine applicants through out the country are) that they decided to build anyhow and if they were to be eventually hanged for the deed it would be for a decent mansion and not a bog standard bungalow or whatever 😉

Anaki r2d2

"On what grounds were their application refused. Did Meath Co. Co. offer them an alternative site or indeed house instead ?"

I doubt anyone except the owners and MCC know why planning was refused on the smaller house.

Why would MCC offer them a site or a house? That makes little sense to me.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990227#Comment_121990227

All development was prohibited on the site. There was never ever any possibility they would be offered planning permission on the site. They would have known this at the outset.

They were taking the piss and sticking their two fingers up to everyone who followed the correct procedure.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990331#Comment_121990331

Planning decisions and reasons are in the public domain.

If the family end up homeless after demolishing the house, I'd guess that normal homeless provisions would kick in.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990145#Comment_121990145

It's not about 'commuting patterns'. It's about car-bound lifestyles so that every trip is a car trip. Every school run, every shopping trip, every 'we've run out of milk' scenario, every playdate, every GAA training, every parent teacher meeting - every trip is a car trip. That's not sustainable.

Here's an update on the planet.

https://twitter.com/progavalanche/status/1773017886249848948

Gaspode

All of this is dragging the thread off topic, please stick to discussion of this house.

SharkMX

Lots of people out where im from building log cabins for their children to live in. Most of then give this house an an example ans say even if they can get 10 or 15 years before they are told to knock down their log cabin they are winning.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981602#Comment_121981602

Meath CoCo can't CPO the site or just take and convert the house into flats. There are prescribed punishments for unauthorised development which Meath CoCo have to abide by, and that includes forcing the owners to demolish the property. Not only that but the cost for Meath to buy the house and convert it wouldn't be worth it, nor would the added costs if the owners objected to the CPO (which they surely would). The owners could say if the property is okay for Meath CoCo to purchase and use for housing, then the Council are ignoring their own grounds for not granting retention permission to the owners.

They should be forced to demolish the property. That's the only reasonable outcome at this stage.

dubrov

It doesn't appear that Meath CoCo are abiding by those punishments.

Anaki r2d2

I’d say if you come back to this thread in 2028 there will still be no update.

Meath Co Co are just hoping that house sinks into the bog!

Seth Brundle

Still sitting on a desk in ABP..

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/meath-couples-appeal-to-save-mini-mansion-still-undecided-after-eight-months/a1545038024.html

sydthebeat

Expect another 8 months......

Gusser09

I'd reckon Meath CC hope ABP uohold the appeal and take the decision out of their hands.

The house is a blot on the landscape. A disgusting piece of architecture in my opinion. Still i wouldnt want to see a family turfed out. They should be told to know minimum 350sqm of it.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092427#Comment_122092427

There should be no offering made. The house simply should not be there and they knew that in full when they built it (effectivelygiving the two fingers to the planning laws). Tear the whole feckin lot down and the family can live in a caravan somewhere legal for all I care!

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092449#Comment_122092449

I wouldnt like to see anyone homeless regardless. Knock it by the guts of 70%.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092461#Comment_122092461

100% of it should not be there according to the planning regs so why would you allow them to keep some of it?

As for being homeless, I'm quite confident that this won't happen!

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092461#Comment_122092461

even 50% - they obviously have money considering they bought the land built the house and have been attending the 4 goldmines ever since battling to keep it.

I don’t like the situation- I think it was wrong what they did- but at this stage it’s a drain on taxpayers and the council have other worries -BUT- if a final agreement was drawn up that if they knocked a portion of the development, then that must be that- if they don’t, then knock the whole thing. Trust will be a big thing here for the end game - they must do what they sign up to do

I don’t see this ending any time soon tbh

micar

The current appeal is in her name.

If the appeal fails…..i guarantee the husband will submit an appeal in his name….Will add another year to this fiasco.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092427#Comment_122092427

That would set an unwanted precedent. These people have spent years and years dragging it through every court and appeals process. If the Council/ABP/Courts just decide it's not worth the hassle and allow them to retain or make modifications/reductions to keep it, then a precedent is set. The next time someone tries to do the same thing, it won't be in the courts/appeals for so long because the first thing to happen will be "Well as per this case, these people were allowed to do XYZ so we should be afforded the same opportunity". And they'd be right.

These people abused the planning process, and are now abusing every appeals process to continuously drag the whole thing out. As much of a drain on time and resources as it is, the process has to be followed and the authorities shouldn't just kowtow to them. The council, ABP and courts have made their decisions, they need to follow through fully.

crinkley

Just out of interest how can Meath County Council pursue this (I believe they should) but Galway County Council are leaving the son of a councillor alone after he built with no planning - seems way too obvious to be purely political but maybe they're that blatant about it

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092461#Comment_122092461

I would happily see these people homeless or better yet, in prison.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987878#Comment_121987878

Will you ever just knock it off? Ireland is responsible for 0.11% of global CO2 emissions, The Chinese are expected to add 200 GW of additional coal fired power by the end of the decade, that's on top of the gobsmacking amount of CO2 they spew already:

Everyone in Ireland with a car could be driving 5.0L V8s and it wouldn't make one scintilla of difference compared to what china emits and the significant increase they are planning on. This really, really is not a case of every little bit helps. Ireland could cease outputting any CO2 at all with everyone committing suicide tomorrow and it just wouldn't matter one iota or change anything. You can delude yourself with the idea you riding a bike makes a difference compared to someone driving a car, but that's all it is - delusion.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092608#Comment_122092608

Get your head around shared responsibility and per capita emissions. Ireland has some of the highest per capita emissions in the world mainly because of ribbon development.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092595#Comment_122092595

There's a statute of limitation of seven years on enforcing planning violations under section 157 (4) of the Planning and Development Act, 2000

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/30/section/157/enacted/en/html#sec157

The first complaint to Galway County Council about the house you refer to was on the 21st of October 2023. The council deemed that the development occurred more than 7 years prior to that, and they were therefore legally prohibited from pursuing the matter.

The saga over the Meath house is very long-running, but I assume that the first planning enforcement action was brought within the first 7 years of it being built. I haven't looked for the exact timeline, but there's an article from 2022 that says the house was built "over 15 years ago", and that the Council first took action "over a decade ago". So it sounds like the action was first taken within 5 years of the house being built.

So if you can keep your house off the Council's radar for 7 years, you can get away with not having planning. However, a guy in England tried that with a mock Tudor mansion he built in 2001. He hid it behind a wall of hay bales for 4 years (the UK statute of limitations on planning matters), only to revel it when he thought he was in the clear. The courts, however, ruled that the four year period only began when the bales were removed - so he was (successfully) ordered to demolish it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeycrock_Farm

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092608#Comment_122092608

Nail on head

🙌👏

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092608#Comment_122092608

Will you ever just knock it off. It's the other boy's fault Mammy, he's much bolder than me.

Grow TF up.