A new public park for Waterford?

Dum_Dum

The future of the Williamstown Golf Course, the municipal golf course on the Outer Ring Road, is under consideration by the council next week.


https://www.wlrfm.com/2020/07/13/future-of-williamstown-golf-course-uncertain/


A suggestion to alter it into a public park is a possibility as is maintaining the status quo.


I'm rather taken with the public park idea. There is certainly a shortage of public amenity in that area.

Harry Palmr

My arse! I heard that, Mary Roche had an idea but didn't think about how it might be achieved and nor did she know anything about Williamstown GC itself. She almost dismissed it as old and male, when the listener feedback showed otherwise. 160 acre site, turning half of it into a wildflower meadow influenced park would not be a cheap and quick undertaking either.

Dum_Dum

Harry Palmr wrote: »

My arse! I heard that, Mary Walsh had an idea but didn't think about how it might be achieved and nor did she know anything about Williamstown GC itself. She almost dismissed it as old and male, when the listener feedback showed otherwise. 160 acre site, turning half of it into a wildflower meadow influenced park would not be a cheap and quick undertaking either.

I thought golf as a pastime was on the wane.

Mysterypunter

Mary Roche should **** off for herself, why don't they remove the travellers from the carrickpherish road and set it up there, how am I going to make the PGA tour if they mess up the golf course. Typical that she said I've never been there myself, every political beak sticking in attempt ends in disaster, that woman is a disaster

Harry Palmr

Dum_Dum wrote: »

I thought golf as a pastime was on the wane.

Hardly, the population demographic is aging, loads of people have time to play, it's outdoors and safe as well in Covid 19 world. The secretary said this morning that they are no longer accepting people who are not already affiliated with the course as it's so busy.

Cabaal

Harry Palmr wrote: »

turning half of it into a wildflower meadow influenced park would not be a cheap and quick undertaking either.

Likely cheaper in the long run then trying to maintain it as a golf course as it wouldn't need near as much weeding or cuitting on a monthly basis compared to the upkeep on a golf course.

Locally to myself there is a meadow that used to be a pitch and putt, it gets a full cut maybe 2 maybe 3 times between March to September and other then that pathways are cut in it weekly/byweekly.

Thats pretty low cost maintance compared to cutting acre upon acre of gras weekly.

Stopitwillya

Mary Roche should be giving back the €50,000 payout she got not too long ago when retiring from local politics. Instead she gets to keep it and returns to her €30,000 soon to be €38,000 a year part time job coming up with stupid ideas. Waterford Councillors cost us over €1 million in wages and expenses in 2019. Not money well spent.

Harry Palmr

Cabaal wrote: »

Likely cheaper in the long run then trying to maintain it as a golf course as it wouldn't need near as much weeding or cuitting on a monthly basis compared to the upkeep on a golf course.

Locally to myself there is a meadow that used to be a pitch and putt, it gets a full cut maybe 2 maybe 3 times between March to September and other then that pathways are cut in it weekly/byweekly.

That's pretty low cost maintenance compared to cutting acre upon acre of grass weekly.

I do not have access to the balance sheet for WGC but they do charge green fees and I expect the council operatives also work outside the facility. A wildflower meadow would be free to use (and no doubt abuse with the inevitable regular clean up)

JimWinters

From what I’ve seen, all Mary has asked for is that the forward planning unit examine establishing a park and playground on the 130 acre golf course.

The same people giving out about this will be giving out about the lack of amenities in the area in 20 years when it’s surrounded by houses. I remember people giving out about the park at the Williamstown roundabout years ago saying nobody would use it.

She’s thinking ahead a decade or two, repurposing a part of the golf course that might not even be used currently. She’s not asking them to repurpose the entire golf course which I’m sure is very expensive for the council to maintain. From the sounds of it the green fees don’t cover maintenance as it stands so we’re subsidising the course. It would be great to see figures on its usage if anyone has them to hand.

In fairness to Mary Roche, she works very hard for the people in Waterford and I’ve always thought she was one of our better councillors...

hardybuck

JimWinters wrote: »

From what I’ve seen, all Mary has asked for is that the forward planning unit examine establishing a park and playground on the 130 acre golf course.

The same people giving out about this will be giving out about the lack of amenities in the area in 20 years when it’s surrounded by houses. I remember people giving out about the park at the Williamstown roundabout years ago saying nobody would use it.

She’s thinking ahead a decade or two, repurposing a part of the golf course that might not even be used currently. She’s not asking them to repurpose the entire golf course which I’m sure is very expensive for the council to maintain. From the sounds of it the green fees don’t cover maintenance as it stands so we’re subsidising the course. It would be great to see figures on its usage if anyone has them to hand.

In fairness to Mary Roche, she works very hard for the people in Waterford and I’ve always thought she was one of our better councillors...

Mary has asked for a review of something with a view to doing something else. If my wife asked me to review our annual trip to France I think I'd be taking it that we won't be going there for a while!

Perhaps others more learned than me will advise, but 130 acres seems generous for a golf club. Even if 10 acres could be set aside it could be possible to fit a public swimming pool, gym, bowls club, tennis courts etc. in there too.

JimWinters

hardybuck wrote: »

Mary has asked for a review of something with a view to doing something else.

I might be missing something, not sure what you mean with the view to doing something else. I’m under the impression that she’s just trying to start a conversation around the park and using land the council already owns...

hardybuck

JimWinters wrote: »

I might be missing something, not sure what you mean with the view to doing something else. I’m under the impression that she’s just trying to start a conversation around the park and using land the council already owns...

From my understanding of it she's asking for a review, with a view towards turning it into a park.

I.e. she's asking for them to consider turning it into a park unless there's a reason not to.

JimWinters

hardybuck wrote: »

From my understanding of it she's asking for a review, with a view towards turning it into a park.

I.e. she's asking for them to consider turning it into a park unless there's a reason not to.

Ah ok, so she’s asking them to examine putting a park there because she’d like there to be a park there. I think she’s being fairly upfront about that. I suppose that happens with every project in the council

BBM77

JimWinters wrote: »

From what I’ve seen, all Mary has asked for is that the forward planning unit examine establishing a park and playground on the 130 acre golf course.

The same people giving out about this will be giving out about the lack of amenities in the area in 20 years when it’s surrounded by houses. I remember people giving out about the park at the Williamstown roundabout years ago saying nobody would use it.

She’s thinking ahead a decade or two, repurposing a part of the golf course that might not even be used currently. She’s not asking them to repurpose the entire golf course which I’m sure is very expensive for the council to maintain. From the sounds of it the green fees don’t cover maintenance as it stands so we’re subsidising the course. It would be great to see figures on its usage if anyone has them to hand.

In fairness to Mary Roche, she works very hard for the people in Waterford and I’ve always thought she was one of our better councillors...

She was thinking was she! I listened to the interview and she sounded like she did not know what she was talking about. She said she was never even in the golf course and did not know how many people use it. Which is a lot. Part of her argument was actually pretty sexist. She said it was mainly used by old males. Which was a stupid thing to say and showed how little she knows about the amenity in question. Damien Tiernan said he was amazed at the amount of texts that came in support of keeping the course as is.

hardybuck

BBM77 wrote: »

She was thinking was she! I listened to the interview and she sounded like she did not know what she was talking about. She said she was never even in the golf course and did not know how many people use it. Which is a lot. Part of her argument was actually pretty sexist. She said it was mainly used by old males. Which was a stupid thing to say and showed how little she knows about the amenity in question. Damien Tiernan said he was amazed at the amount of texts that came in support of keeping the course as is.

What's wrong with old males I wonder!?

JimWinters

BBM77 wrote: »

She was thinking was she! I listened to the interview and she sounded like she did not know what she was talking about. She said she was never even in the golf course and did not know how many people use it. Which is a lot. Part of her argument was actually pretty sexist. She said it was mainly used by old males. Which was a stupid thing to say and showed how little she knows about the amenity in question. Damien Tiernan said he was amazed at the amount of texts that came in support of keeping the course as is.

Interesting, must have a listen back thanks.

The poll on this thread should include an option to add a park to the golf course, not replace it. No harm considering it is all I’m saying...

decies

The most ridiculous utterings I have heard from a local politician was Mary Roche today . The woman is fond of her own voice at the best of times , play nine holes twice , god almighty the woman is clueless and should have retired years ago !!

Stopitwillya

decies wrote: »

The most ridiculous utterings I have heard from a local politician was Mary Roche today . The woman is fond of her own voice at the best of times , play nine holes twice , god almighty the woman is clueless and should have retired years ago !!

She did retire less than 2 years ago and got €50k payout for retiring.

Cabaal

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I do not have access to the balance sheet for WGC but they do charge green fees and I expect the council operatives also work outside the facility. A wildflower meadow would be free to use (and no doubt abuse with the inevitable regular clean up)

So we can't have something nice because some people might litter?

Unlike a golf course a park can be enjoyed by thousands upon thousands more people, it can be utitlised by the entire city rather then the few who will commit to paying fee's to access the same space when its a golf course.

Golf courses are not a good use of land, end of.

greenspurs

Cabaal wrote: »

So we can't have something nice because some people might litter?

Unlike a golf course a park can be enjoyed by thousands upon thousands more people, it can be utitlised by the entire city rather then the few who will commit to paying fee's to access the same space when its a golf course.

Golf courses are not a good use of land, end of.

Do you not have the Eco park, and the 'Park' already ?

BBM77

hardybuck wrote: »

What's wrong with old males I wonder!?

Yeah, imagine the fuss there would be if a man councillor said something should be changed because it was used mainly by old females. You’d think if you were going to put down a council motion on something and go on the radio to talk about it you would research it a bit first. And make an argument that did not involve insulting people. I am not even a golfer or an old man. It was just annoying how little though Mary Roche put into this with a sexist undertone to boot.

Harry Palmr

Williamstown is the peoples course, the better off have two courses in the city environs so why should the little (old) man be robbed of the joys of a good walk spoilt?

I'm not against what Roche proposed with regard to an off road walking space which is semi wild, far from it indeed but she needs to look beyond a simplistic "oh we own that so lets change it" approach.

Is there a database of lands held by the council?

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Williamstown is the peoples course, the better off have two courses in the city environs so why should the little (old) man be robbed of the joys of a good walk spoilt?

Is there a database of lands held by the council?

I'm not a golfer so this has no real impact for me but we're not short on off road places to walk!
We've plenty of coastline, a greenway, Mt. Congreve and plenty of other places to stretch our legs!

Harry Palmr

Talking about on WLR right now, vox pox of golfers.

Cabaal

greenspurs wrote: »

Do you not have the Eco park, and the 'Park' already ?

You know a city's can have more then two parks right?

Cork has numerous parks for example, you also have to think of future developments and the need for public space for those people,.

Max Powers

A bad idea I'd say Mary, unless cost is prohibitive, keep the golf course. I don't play golf BTW. There is a park down the road by, WLR, eco is near too, people's park not far, numerous other green areas too, especially around dunmore road area (viewmount, etc) they could probably do with some sort of decent green area planned out by ballygunner as there is a lot of housing there already and a lot more planned. I'm sure other areas of the city more in need of green areas too.

Stopitwillya

Cabaal wrote: »

You know a city's can have more then two parks right?

Cork has numerous parks for example, you also have to think of future developments and the need for public space for those people,.

We also have a park across from activate with plenty of green space for developing it. At the moment it's a fairly crap park but the potential is there to improve it. It's also less than a mile away from the golf course.

BBM77

Cabaal wrote: »

You know a city's can have more then two parks right?

Cork has numerous parks for example, you also have to think of future developments and the need for public space for those people,.

We have two parks, many green spaces and numerous places to walk, there is only one municipal golf course.

greenspurs

Cabaal wrote: »

You know a city's can have more then two parks right?

Cork has numerous parks for example, you also have to think of future developments and the need for public space for those people,.

and theres 2 municipal courses in Cork city and 1 pitch and putt ... ….

gscully

There is also ample land adjacent to the golf course for a playground if that's what her real angle is.

Most people cannot afford to pay €700+ annually to a golf club, so to be able to play a round for €15 or so is a great option to have.

Why not purchase the old Waterford Crystal sports complex and make a park there?

hardybuck

Cabaal wrote: »

You know a city's can have more then two parks right?

Cork has numerous parks for example, you also have to think of future developments and the need for public space for those people,.

Waterford has better parks than Cork and a much smaller population.

friendlyfun

Why is Wyse park closed up for so long? was it because of restoration work?

mooseknunkle

Oscar Madison wrote: »

I'm not a golfer so this has no real impact for me but we're not short on off road places to walk!
We've plenty of coastline, a greenway, Mt. Congreve and plenty of other places to stretch our legs!

We could do with a dog park in Waterford

johnnykilo

What about the Pitch and Putt at the back of the RSC? Is that even still open? I used to go regularly back in the day but then the council seemed to loose interest in it. It wouldn't be open all the time depending on what else was going on in the RSC, and then they got rid of the option to rent clubs.

Also, as someone else has said earlier what about the old Waterford Crystal Pitch and Putt too? Both are more central and both are better options IMO, than messing with Williamstown.

Harry Palmr

Roche's pitch (sorry) is that this would be for the south eastern population first and foremost.

Dunmoreroader

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Roche's pitch (sorry) is that this would be for the south eastern population first and foremost.

As has already been pointed out here, there IS a park & playground already in this area of the city; its called Farronshooneen. Even Damien Tiernan didn't think of pointing this out to Cllr. Roche when he was interviewing her and he looking out at it from his WLR studio.
Btw, the admission by Cllr. Roche that she has not inspected Williamstown Golf Course, and/or surrounding grounds, prior to flying this kite, beggars belief.
Should that not be one of the first things you might expect a Councillor to do prior to opening their mouths?

Mysterypunter

If more of our local politicians were at Mary Roche's level the county would be far better off. A good, hard working, woman and was a distinguished representative.

Mysterypunter wrote: »

Mary Roche should **** off for herself, why don't they remove the travellers from the carrickpherish road and set it up there, how am I going to make the PGA tour if they mess up the golf course. Typical that she said I've never been there myself, every political beak sticking in attempt ends in disaster, that woman is a disaster

Was this a serious suggestion?

The Carrickphierish Road, for a park...?

Harry Palmr

Farronshooneen is a green - it's for throwing frisbees, kicking a ball about, letting the nippers have a quick roundabout. The idea Roche has is quite different - a semi wild "haven" for nature to be given its head not appropriate for a small plot within a light business and residential setting.

hardybuck

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Farronshooneen is a green - it's for throwing frisbees, kicking a ball about, letting the nippers have a quick roundabout. The idea Roche has is quite different - a semi wild "haven" for nature to be given its head not appropriate for a small plot within a light business and residential setting.

I.e. a Nature Park?

space2ground1

I listened to the interview. She's looking for parkland the same as you'd see in the suburbs of any city in the world. Faronshoneen isnt a park, its a green with a basketball hoop, a goal post and a play area.

A park is 40-50 acres of open cut grass with trees around it. Somewhere for the thousands of people that live between Glenville and Farmleigh to be able to walk with their kids to put down a blanket and throw around a ball while having a picnic. 50,000+ people can't just go to the people's park in town.

I'm delighted the golfers have a cheaper golf course. There's a few facts though. Since that golf course went in, there's thousands of families after moving to the area because estates were given planning and built. So the council has an obligation now to spend money on amenities for those people in their area. 99% of the local population cant / dont play golf.

If there's space up there for a proper open area with trees and a walking track around it, where's the uproar in putting that in? It's not the rainforest she's trying to provide.. its a safe cut field. The golf course is brilliant but if you're looking at putting a thousand famililes on the green at Activate while 200 people play golf across the road on 200 acres or whatever it is, ya have to ask is that good use of council land?

Plenty of people saying get your hands off the golf course which is fair enough but its a bit like saying I'm using 4 rooms of my house to watch the football.. have your sunday dinner in the bathroom.. get your hands off my telly. (And the council are paying for the sports subscription and then can't afford to carpet the bathroom)

Just make good use of the council land and put in a big open field with a track and trees around it beside the golf course no?

gscully

The Willamstown/Dunmore Rd/Ballygunner area needs a secondary school far more than it needs a park.

Dunmoreroader

I've no problem with Clllr. Roche usually, I agree with her on most things relating to improving and developing Waterford but she could have done a bit of due diligence prior to hopping this ball. If a park can be accommodated around the golf course, great, could she not have done a bit of behind the scenes investigating with council officials before going public?
We should be adding amenities to our city for the benefit of all, not pitching one group against another, which is what has happened now by the way she has gone about " starting the debate".
Earn your salary Mary, do the leg work and then present us with a proposition that everyone can agree on instead of poking your stick into the Hornets nest.

hardybuck

space2ground1 wrote: »

I listened to the interview. She's looking for parkland the same as you'd see in the suburbs of any city in the world. Faronshoneen isnt a park, its a green with a basketball hoop, a goal post and a play area.

A park is 40-50 acres of open cut grass with trees around it. Somewhere for the thousands of people that live between Glenville and Farmleigh to be able to walk with their kids to put down a blanket and throw around a ball while having a picnic. 50,000+ people can't just go to the people's park in town.

I'm delighted the golfers have a cheaper golf course. There's a few facts though. Since that golf course went in, there's thousands of families after moving to the area because estates were given planning and built. So the council has an obligation now to spend money on amenities for those people in their area. 99% of the local population cant / dont play golf.

If there's space up there for a proper open area with trees and a walking track around it, where's the uproar in putting that in? It's not the rainforest she's trying to provide.. its a safe cut field. The golf course is brilliant but if you're looking at putting a thousand famililes on the green at Activate while 200 people play golf across the road on 200 acres or whatever it is, ya have to ask is that good use of council land?

Plenty of people saying get your hands off the golf course which is fair enough but its a bit like saying I'm using 4 rooms of my house to watch the football.. have your sunday dinner in the bathroom.. get your hands off my telly. (And the council are paying for the sports subscription and then can't afford to carpet the bathroom)

Just make good use of the council land and put in a big open field with a track and trees around it beside the golf course no?

The area would be better served with sports facilities and community space rather than a field for you to wander around and have a picnic.

What you're describing wouldn't really be safe or feasible. It's 130 acres - and you wouldn't really get a golf course much smaller. If you put a track around the edge it would be pretty dangerous.

However if you made it 5% smaller, you might have enough for a community sports and leisure facility on the site which would also boost the Golf Club. If the population is growing they'll need a swimming pool, tennis courts, a gym, a place to play bridge and have meetings. You could put one of those into Williamstown and the area would have more facilities rather than less.

The Nature Park has 150 acres and Waterford is also fortunate to have the People's Park which is a great facility.

space2ground1

hardybuck wrote: »

The area would be better served with sports facilities and community space rather than a field for you to wander around and have a picnic.

What you're describing wouldn't really be safe or feasible. It's 130 acres - and you wouldn't really get a golf course much smaller. If you put a track around the edge it would be pretty dangerous.

However if you made it 5% smaller, you might have enough for a community sports and leisure facility on the site which would also boost the Golf Club. If the population is growing they'll need a swimming pool, tennis courts, a gym, a place to play bridge and have meetings. You could put one of those into Williamstown and the area would have more facilities rather than less.

The Nature Park has 150 acres and Waterford is also fortunate to have the People's Park which is a great facility.

I’m thinking of the park across the road from my house in Dublin when I lived there. 50 acres.. a woodland/gravel walking track around the edge between rows of trees. Open grass in the middle.. and the gates locked in the evening. No crime that I ever remember, space for families and kids just to relax and play. Low cost. I’m talking from personal experience. That’s what my family had and we loved it. It was small and completely safe and easy to manage. At weekends and an hour or two in the morning the coffee vans would arrive and on sunny days the place was full of picnic blankets and families relaxing. You’d have people going for a walk or jog on the trail every morning.

It doesn’t have to be an expensive outdoor leisure centre or curated nature park.

hardybuck

space2ground1 wrote: »

I’m thinking of the park across the road from my house in Dublin when I lived there. 50 acres.. a woodland/gravel walking track around the edge between rows of trees. Open grass in the middle.. and the gates locked in the evening. No crime that I ever remember, space for families and kids just to relax and play. Low cost. I’m talking from personal experience. That’s what my family had and we loved it. It was small and completely safe and easy to manage. At weekends and an hour or two in the morning the coffee vans would arrive and on sunny days the place was full of picnic blankets and families relaxing. You’d have people going for a walk or jog on the trail every morning.

It doesn’t have to be an expensive outdoor leisure centre or curated nature park.

I know what you mean. I live beside an enclosed park facility of 1,747 acres. It's lovely, and it's multi-functional. However a lot of people in Dublin wouldn't have the benefit of gardens that people in Waterford have, and the Dublin also needs a few green 'lungs' to absorb the dirty air.

I think one of the things Dublin did well was retain the parks that were built in the Georgian and Victorian era, and to retain the demesnes and lands around great houses when the city expanded into the subarbs. They've also got loads of community sports fields in nearly every area too.

Waterford got greedy with the Dunmore Rd and forced too many houses in without providing for schools, for sports clubs etc.

The journey from Farmleigh to Williamstown is pretty similar as the one to the Nature Park and to Woodstown Beach. You have the May Park Walk, Ballinakill Woods as well. Not a bad way to have it.

Dunmoreroader

I would also point out that there is a fantastic river walk along most of the south bank of the Suir, which is essentially a linear park. This also caters to the population cohort Cllr. Roche speaks for. The Council should be looking to upgrade and enhance this for the enjoyment of locals and visitors alike. If it was upgraded it would be better than the Greenway for walkers/strollers and another little gem of a tourist attraction in the heart of the city. It should go continuously from the Marina Hotel out to Blenheim and beyond but a few landowners along the route have appropriated the foreshore into their gardens(not sure if legally or not?), PwC and a few homeowners near Waterford Castle ferry come to mind.
Picnic tables, lots of bins, new fencing, regular maintenance & cleaning, tree husbandry and continuous monitoring to prevent dumping and anti-social behavior could transform this under-appreciated asset into a fantastic amenity for the city.

Harry Palmr

gscully wrote: »

The Willamstown/Dunmore Rd/Ballygunner area needs a secondary school far more than it needs a park.

No one is going to argue that point (well someone might just because!) that entire third of the City was allowed to grow like topsy without a shred of actual strategic planning for it's maturing phase.

space2ground1

hardybuck wrote: »

I know what you mean. I live beside an enclosed park facility of 1,747 acres. It's lovely, and it's multi-functional. However a lot of people in Dublin wouldn't have the benefit of gardens that people in Waterford have, and the Dublin also needs a few green 'lungs' to absorb the dirty air.

I think one of the things Dublin did well was retail the parks that were built in the Georgian and Victorian era, and to retain the demesnes and lands around great houses when the city expanded into the subarbs. They've also got loads of community sports fields in nearly every area too.

Waterford got greedy with the Dunmore Rd and forced too many houses in without providing for schools, for sports clubs etc.

The journey from Farmleigh to Williamstown is pretty similar as the one to the Nature Park and to Woodstown Beach. You have the May Park Walk, Ballinakill Woods as well. Not a bad way to have it.

Not bad at all but would I walk/cycle a young family from say Viewmount to the nature park or Woodstown? Not a hope. It’s a design flaw and you’re spot on talking about Dublin. The advantage they have is loads of these tree lined 50 acre + green areas and they are used all the time. The distances are generally walkable from people’s homes.

There’s a hopscotch painted on the path on the outer ring road like. If whoever thought that was an amenity was in charge of parkland then it’s no wonder the green at Activate is being considered a park. We need to just do the simple things well. Use spare land at the golf course if it’s there.. mow it, track around it, plant trees... lock it when the golf course is closing.

We don’t need millions spent to make a difference. Whether the council is blowing a fortune on keeping up the golf course for very few people is one question for accountants and golfers but not providing a simple safe open space like I described and the ones you’re aware of in Dublin is just bad planning.

Stopitwillya

hardybuck wrote: »

The area would be better served with sports facilities and community space rather than a field for you to wander around and have a picnic.

A gaa pitch is needed in the area to allow a new gaa/camogie/ladies football club to develop in the area. Ballygunner or gaultier won't like this of course.

hardybuck

Stopitwillya wrote: »

A gaa pitch is needed in the area to allow a new gaa/camogie/ladies football club to develop in the area. Ballygunner or gaultier won't like this of course.

Aren't Erin's Own are around the corner in Killure?

Stopitwillya

hardybuck wrote: »

Aren't Erin's Own are around the corner in Killure?

Killure would be a secondary pitch for them. Poleberry would be the main pitch. Not many boys if any of say on the dunmore road would play with Erin's own.