New children's hospital

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/childrens-hospital-work-stalls-as-row-over-costs-leaves-site-idle-for-months-39355931.html

Covid 19, Barry Cowan, internal rows, now the above the now government are off to a great start.

wrangler

mariaalice wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/childrens-hospital-work-stalls-as-row-over-costs-leaves-site-idle-for-months-39355931.html

Covid 19, Barry Cowan, internal rows, now the above the now government are off to a great start.

Contractors dealing with Civil Servants, Civil Servants waste taxpayers money, win win for the contractors. simples

ChikiChiki

This is a ****ing joke. BAM are taking the piss and running rings around a clueless Government. They are literally holding a gun to all our heads.

https://www.thejournal.ie/national-childrens-hospital-6-5270599-Nov2020/

Think the procurement process needs to be brought to light off the back off recent disclosures. (leaks).

There is a real risk of this becoming a white elephant at this rate.

machiavellianme

They should just call the whole thing off. Abandon the poor site decision, let BAM rot and start the thing again in a sensible location with a competent tenderer, capped at 40% of whatever it was expected to be delivered for. Even that's extortionate but would drive a lot more value for money than the current madness.

machiavellianme

machiavellianme wrote: »

They should just call the whole thing off. Abandon the poor site decision, let BAM rot and start the thing again in a sensible location with a competent tenderer, capped at 40% of whatever it was expected to be delivered for. Even that's extortionate but would drive a lot more value for money than the current madness.

Slight flaw in your solution what contractor would be taking that contract let alone one who is prepared to do it for at a 60% discount.

machiavellianme

mariaalice wrote: »

Slight flaw in your solution what contractor would be taking that contract let alone one who is prepared to do it for at a 60% discount.

Put it on OJEU and see what happens. The whole procurement exercise was a farce. Accept the lowest bidder despite seemingly being incapable of delivering a programme and then seeking additional costs is not best practice.
Starting from scratch outside the M50 would be a clean solution. It's not a 60% discount if it's not the same project, but there should be a keen understanding that this is a ceiling and not a floor. I suspect there'll still be plenty willing to bid. Every other hospital in the world is delivered for a lot less.

ChikiChiki

BAM have the Govt tied up in knots with the contracts. That is where the book should be thrown. At Varadkar and Harris specifically. Harris almost complicit by his failure to acknowledge and address budget warnings.

The way it is going it would be cheaper to start again at a more appropriate location.

These are Covid Times and I think this project is at a Stop/Go decision point. The money may simply not be there.

kildare lad

One thing you can always guarantee in Ireland is the government wasting millions and millions of taxpayers money . I was working in a house near a block of flats in town 3 years ago. Went to the shop in the flats on my break and ended up talking to the shopkeeper who was making me a sandwich . I said it seems very quiet around here for the time of day , he replied that the council are spending 3 million doing up the flats even though the flats are getting demolished in a few years time . Councils have to spend their budgets or else they lose it next year. Talk about wasting money . Nothing surprises me anymore with the idiots in power here

pawdee

I said this a good while ago on another thread........

I haven't been following the story so I'm not familiar with the background. Is this a traditional procurement route? If the contract sum is 1.4 billion what's the final account going to be? When BAM built the Tralee bypass about 5 years ago the contract sum was 30 million euros. They were claiming an additional 46 million. Bear in mind that was a greenfield site and as straightforward a road building job as you could wish for. The final account on this hospital, a complex project in the city centre? Hang on there 'til I pluck a figure out of my a**e...............2.9 billion.


It seems I might have been conservative in my guesstimate.

machiavellianme

I know it's wiki but this has no place being on such a list (List_of_most_expensive_buildings). There's only one other hospital listed in the the world's top 40 most expensive buildings (Royal Adelaide) and somehow our Children's hospital trumps it. Most of the rest are vanity projects like skyscrapers and mosques.
We could have 2x sets of the Petronas twin towers and have change left over for equipment the way things are going.

CarProblem

Phew - I'm glad we have the "fiscally conservative" FG at the wheel. Imagine what it would cost if this mythical "left" we keep hearing about was in charge :rolleyes:

Solutionking

According to the examiner BAM has not provided details in regards to the work programme as per the contract. Why doesn't the government just sue the ass off themn. Take the money and build it in Blanchardstown like they should of done day 1

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/children-s-hospital-contractor-submits-claims-for-hundreds-of-millions-of-euro-extra-1.4412440?mode=amp

BAM!!

ChikiChiki

Hot on the heals of the leaks debacle also. Seems almost opportunist the cynic in me thinks whilst the Govt are on the ropes.

Any public servant awarding BAM a contract must be very nervous...

We should introduce a new verb.
To Bam a project.

Children's Hospital - Banned
Port of Cork - Bammed
Events Centre - Bammed
Tralee bypass - Bammed

N25 bypass - may be Bammed yet

Fred Cryton

CarProblem wrote: »

Phew - I'm glad we have the "fiscally conservative" FG at the wheel. Imagine what it would cost if this mythical "left" we keep hearing about was in charge :rolleyes:

What the Shinners will find when they do eventually get into power is that no party, even lefty parties with terrorist connections, will be able to transform the incompetency, lack of diligence and amateur nature of the Irish public sector system.

gifted

Dogs on the street knew this was going to happen when BAM got the contract....

ChikiChiki

gifted wrote: »

Dogs on the street knew this was going to happen when BAM got the contract....

Seems its the BAM business model and there is enough evidence there of similar strokes once a bit of digging is done. Allegedly Sisk put in a more expensive quote by 100m and was rejected. Big mistake me thinks.

James Brown

Fred Cryton wrote: »

What the Shinners will find when they do eventually get into power is that no party, even lefty parties with terrorist connections, will be able to transform the incompetency, lack of diligence and amateur nature of the Irish public sector system.

We should maybe elect people to over see such things? D'you think? Be a good idea for us to have someone looking after the states finances, another to allocate for health, some to ensure any deals we enter into using tax payer money are sound with due diligence carried out. Just a thought.
Or we could continue to shrug our shoulders and be thankful it's not others, who might be worse....been working out swell so far.

CarProblem

Fred Cryton wrote: »

What the Shinners will find when they do eventually get into power is that no party, even lefty parties with terrorist connections, will be able to transform the incompetency, lack of diligence and amateur nature of the Irish public sector system.

Yeah I agree, when FG fuck up we definitely should focus on other parties, especially ones that have never been in government

Just to note: I have never voted for SF and don't intend to any time soon (I want to vote for an actual fiscally conservative party but none exist in Ireland) but yet again the "look over there" deflection re. FG is absolutely pathetic

Floppybits

CarProblem wrote: »

Yeah I agree, when FG fuck up we definitely should focus on other parties, especially ones that have never been in government

Just to note: I have never voted for SF and don't intend to any time soon (I want to vote for an actual fiscally conservative party but none exist in Ireland) but yet again the "look over there" deflection re. FG is absolutely pathetic

A lot of people would like to vote for a Fiscally responsible party, supposedly FG was this party but how we were fooled by this.

CarProblem

Floppybits wrote: »

A lot of people would like to vote for a Fiscally responsible party, supposedly FG was this party but how we were fooled by this.

I voted for FG up to the 2016 GE - unfortunately I got FF again (and further 10s of billions of debt thrown on the backs of my children)

ChikiChiki

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Seems its the BAM business model and there is enough evidence there of similar strokes once a bit of digging is done. Allegedly Sisk put in a more expensive quote by 100m and was rejected. Big mistake me thinks.

it isn't so much the main contractor. They aren't a charity and they will look to make as uch money out of it as possible.

The problem is with general incompetency in public procurement and the shroud of secrecy in the public sector that prevents anyone being held accountable. Until there is more transparency in the Public Sector, this kind of thing will continue to happen. The only reason this made the headlines was because the numbers were too big to cover up.

joemurt

Beacon Private cost 180million to build.
Vincents Private cost 190 million. Took 2 years to build.

FG handed over 300million plus in rent over this pandemic to keep private hospitals empty.

This ''negligence'' surrounding the NCH which should have opening in 2014 is very much deliberate, children are dying because of it and people should be in prison. Disgusting stuff.

Aegir above talks about accountability in the public sector; when Varadkar can leak confidential state documents on a regular basis with no accountability, it just encourages the rest of the dead wieght to follow.

SEPT 23 1989

How many of the 600 disputes would have happened if the hospital was built on a green field site?

James Brown

Aegir wrote: »

it isn't so much the main contractor. They aren't a charity and they will look to make as uch money out of it as possible.

The problem is with general incompetency in public procurement and the shroud of secrecy in the public sector that prevents anyone being held accountable. Until there is more transparency in the Public Sector, this kind of thing will continue to happen. The only reason this made the headlines was because the numbers were too big to cover up.

There's a link there. Money mismanaged, finer details hid.

Is it all incompetence or is there old school crony fraud happening? Not saying there is, we don't have the finer details.
Also I cannot believe these public servants are so incompetent. I would imagine it's the system they operate within. I do not believe good people are allowing this to happen because they aren't willing or capable of sounding the alarm when the money paid out starts getting silly.
This harks back to lack of accountability. Not my problem, pass the buck, and on and on until the media get a sniff.

Hamsterchops

They're building it in the wrong place.

City Centre on an already packed campus :cool:

joseywhales

People will always be irresponsible with other people's money. I do not understand why such a contract does not put the burden of risk on the company that gets the contract. Like extra costs and overrun, should just be the legal responsibility of a contractor no? So you get x premium on the price of the contract because of the estimated risk you will have to cover and it's all in your hands now to complete or get sued per day overrun? Is it hard to construct such a contract with extremely detailed specs for millions of euros? Surely they could have hired every solicitor in Ireland for the costs incurred??

Your Face

Its nothing new in Construction industry.
If a client is seems like a soft touch then is all abroad the gravy train.
Doesn't matter the size of the project.

ILoveYourVibes

This whole story has become so convoluted that I have lost track tbh.

And i honestly don't think that is my fault.

James Brown

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This whole story has become so convoluted that I have lost track tbh.

And i honestly don't think that is my fault.

Sounds like something Paschal and Simon said last year

Bowie

Bowie wrote: »

There's a link there. Money mismanaged, finer details hid.

Is it all incompetence or is there old school crony fraud happening? Not saying there is, we don't have the finer details.
Also I cannot believe these public servants are so incompetent. I would imagine it's the system they operate within. I do not believe good people are allowing this to happen because they aren't willing or capable of sounding the alarm when the money paid out starts getting silly.
This harks back to lack of accountability. Not my problem, pass the buck, and on and on until the media get a sniff.

Having had some(limited) experience of public procurement, and listening to the shenanigans going on, I reckon most of them are doing their best, the system of awarding contracts , and claims resolution is stacked against the exchequer. Tbrow in political interference, its a recipe for disaster.

James Brown

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Having had some(limited) experience of public procurement, and listening to the shenanigans going on, I reckon most of them are doing their best, the system of awarding contracts , and claims resolution is stacked against the exchequer. Tbrow in political interference, its a recipe for disaster.

I would expect they are. In my experience albeit on a smaller scale, contractors need submit a reasoned estimate and laundry list to back up said costs. I would guess the problems lie in the grey areas of the nod and wink not the public servant processing the outcome.

gifted

gifted wrote: »

Dogs on the street knew this was going to happen when BAM got the contract....

That the Board would generate 10,000 new drawing since January 2019, but only if BAM was the contractor? If any other contractor was there instead, the Board would not be making all these changes? They are doing so because it is BAM?

You'll have to explain that one again

BAM have every right to put in these claims for extra costs.

If the design keeps changing and the Board don't know what they want, that's not BAM's fault.

political analyst

Why have the costs of this project risen so much?

political analyst

I remember reading about the dispute about where the new hospital was going to be constructed. Therefore, the warning signs were visible long before construction even commenced. This hospital is yet another 'sacred cow' in Irish society. Is it about overcompensating for the horror that was inflicted on children throughout the history of the State?

daheff

joseywhales wrote: »

I do not understand why such a contract does not put the burden of risk on the company that gets the contract. Like extra costs and overrun, should just be the legal responsibility of a contractor no?

If you make those kind of clauses part of the contract, then you either pay a huge premium or find contractors don't agree to the contract.

Especially when the contractor knows there are problems and stuff missing with the contract in the first place.

ChikiChiki

salonfire wrote: »

BAM have every right to put in these claims for extra costs.

If the design keeps changing and the Board don't know what they want, that's not BAM's fault.

Agree. An incompetent government and project committee is playing right into the hands of shrewd operators like BAM who will milk them for all they have.

Requirements should have been nailed down at the start and these deviations are obscene. Brought to you by the same Civil Service clowns making similar fook ups over and over again with no accountability.

political analyst

Here is a summary of an article written by Professor Sean Barrett of Trinity College for today's Indo about the National Children's Hospital (NCH) debacle:


Building a new hospital in Ireland brings together 3 main dangers for the wider society:

1. A low-productivity, high-cost construction sector, as per the Build Report.

2. A high cost, low-productivity health-sector, as per the Depratment of Health's own annual data series.

3. One of the weakest public expenditure appraisal systems in the world, as reported by the IMF in 2017.

A combination of those 3 leads to cost-overruns and delayed completion dates. 2 bizarre cost-increasing rules top-up the problems: Some on the public construction bonanza are paid more as the total cost of the project increases and are paid more the longer the delays in a completing the project.

Projects such as NCH also have the 'Other People's Money' (OPM) problem. Big budgets boost egos and career prospects of high-spending bureaucracies. This promotes the Edifice Complex in both health and higher education. The supreme accolade was awarded to the head of a UK university who built "the empire on which the concrete never sets".

Low productivity in both construction and health was aggravated by large spending increases without reform in the October Budget. Our weak public expenditure appraisal system has fobbed off the IMF reforms proposed in 2017. The NCH debacle shows a totally inadequate project-appraisal sysstem.

2 reforms are urgent:

1. Implement Article 33 of the Constitution, which states there shall be a Comptroller and Auditor Genereal to control all disbursements and audit all accounts of moneys administered by or under the authority of the Oireachtas. It must become the norm that the Comptroller controls all disbursements and audits all accounts. In many cases the Public Expenditure Horse has already bolted by the time the Comptroller gets around to a problem area. Spending bureaucracies maximise spending by their departments because that's what we reward. They're ineffective in project appraisal.

2. Repeal the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924, which says all of a government department's actions are deemed to be those of the minister. In practicse, this is impossible tut it allows all those directly involved in public spending to shift the blame on a mninister who is not the person who got input prices and quantities wrong.

suicide_circus

The money spent on the hospital is loose change in the context of lockdown spending/borrowing. At least we actually have an asset afterwards.

SEPT 23 1989

just wait until the fit out costs start

gifted

Just wait until they have to staff it

astrofool

gifted wrote: »

Just wait until they have to staff it

Just wait till the staff try and commute to work!

Floppybits

astrofool wrote: »

Just wait till the staff try and commute to work!

They will just keep everyone in lockdown so that the staff can commute to work in the hospital.

ChikiChiki

It may well be the costliest white elephant the state has ever seen.

The way BAM are building it, could well become another Berlin Brandenberg. A decade late and well over budget.

political analyst

gifted wrote: »

Just wait until they have to staff it

The staff would be transferred from Crumlin, Temple Street and Tallaght and services would be consolidated at the new hospital.

smurgen

What is the actual status of it? I've tried to look for completion dates and budgets amounts and there's alot of conflicting reports.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

Just wait till the staff try and commute to work!

Surrounded by public transport, how will they ever be able to manage.

Amirani

astrofool wrote: »

Just wait till the staff try and commute to work!

All the staff in James's, the largest adult hospital in the State, manage just fine. It's one of the best served public transport locations in the country.

Ireland2020

Amirani wrote: »

All the staff in James's, the largest adult hospital in the State, manage just fine. It's one of the best served public transport locations in the country.

"best served public transport locations in the country"

Hasnt really got any competition does it?

Builders/Contractors/Planners etc all making a fortune out of this shambles of a hospital. Thats the FG way