Intellectuals weigh in on Cancel Culture

Invidious

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

By what metric have education standards collapsed?

I'm assuming we're talking about the US here? "Collapsed" might be too strong a word for it, but concerns over declining standards are not misplaced. The Spellings Commission stated: "...we are disturbed by evidence that the quality of student learning at U.S. colleges and universities is inadequate and, in some cases, declining. A number of recent studies highlight the shortcomings of postsecondary institutions in everything from graduation rates and time to degree to learning outcomes and even core literacy skills. According to the most recent National Assessment of Adult Literacy, for instance, the percentage of college graduates deemed proficient in prose literacy has actually declined from 40 to 31 percent in the past decade."

If only 31 percent of college graduates are proficient in prose literacy, there's surely a problem.

jimgoose

Deleted User wrote: »

You point it all in the direction of Trump and his cronies or supporters, but honestly, I see the same behavior coming from his opponents. American media and politics have both become a cesspit with a general lack of respect towards anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs...

Indeed, they're all at it. It's a side-effect of making information, news and it's means of distribution available to every hoor's ghosht - you get siloing, echo-chambers and, eventually, a deeply divided society where various groups are convinced, entrenched, and no-one listens to anyone.

FutureGuy

If people think cancel culture is a myth, try having an open debate on Facebook about the dangers of transitioning young children or assigning them a gender from an early age.

Or trans people competing in women's sports.

Or someone pointing out that some police are good and some black people are bad.

See how that goes.

CtevenSrowder

Bonniedog wrote: »

I can't find it now but someone said something to effect that left was always on the side of science.

Really? Well they never read Engels' embarrassing nonsense which sought to shoehorn all sorts of actual science into "scientific socialism."

Nor are they familiar with Soviet science which had as one of its heroes Lysenko who thought that man made changes to plants and animals would be inherited over a number of generations. Geneticists who said this was medieval nonsense were sent to camps and murdered.

Likewise, the Soviets denounced the theory of relativity, quantum physics and the Big Bang (originated by a Belgian priest Lemaitre) as "bourgeois." The Nazis denounced the same theories as "Jewish physics."!


Same totalitarian attack on science and truth underlies transgenderism. Thankfully, its political advocates do not have the political power to do as they would like to and murder any dissenting voices. So they have to be content with censorship.

My post was specific to America. And again, it is not all right wingers over there, but a subset. The Christian right in particular.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

US education fees being exorbitant does not mean that education standards are slipping.

That USA today piece looks like a blog post. If you've actual scientific evidence, I feel like I would have seen it by now.

Free speech comes with accountability. This is what Trump and his acolytes despise. I'm not going to go searching for a video that you've not even bothered to link. Frankly, this sort of ownage culture is a big part of the problem with political discourse in the US.

"Seventh, American universities have lost some popular political support, in part because of excessive campus intolerance of views deviating from the dominant left-wing campus progressive perspective that large portions of the potential college-going American population find uncomfortable, almost un-American. Campus protests, the Cancel Culture, and other suppression of intellectual diversity and heated but civilized debate put off many Americans, as a good deal of polling by Pew and Gallup has indicated.

American universities have become too arrogant, bloated with expensive non-academic apparatchiks, and too far out of the mainstream of American life. They have been doing less for more, and America is getting sick and tired of it. The ongoing market correction that will kill off some schools and scare most others could, in time, be a salutary lesson for university leaders, leading to a return to the basics of non-nonsense teaching of virtue, knowledge, and beauty, and encouraging innovation and enterprise. For America’s sake, let’s hope so."

The previous six points seem rather sound too.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

You point it all in the direction of Trump and his cronies or supporters, but honestly, I see the same behavior coming from his opponents. American media and politics have both become a cesspit with a general lack of respect towards anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs.

I don't. I don't see them waving Nazi flags, carrying assault weapons and spreading conspiracy theories. The both sides defence is just a tired old trope at this stage.

Deleted User wrote: »

Lastly, Trump while overusing the idea of fake news, wasn't completely wrong. There has been a campaign to create distrust towards Trump, which contained fake news stories. Agenda pieces with the sole aim to discredit him.. something that wouldn't have been even remotely common twenty years ago. The responsibility for that happening doesn't rest solely on Trump. It rests a lot on the people who have been trying to take him down.

I disagree. The man is a moral, cultural and political tumour. A media conspiracy against him would be completely pointless as all they have to do is check on the latest diarrhoea emanating from his Twitter account.

Tired Gardener

Invidious wrote: »

I'm assuming we're talking about the US here? "Collapsed" might be too strong a word for it, but concerns over declining standards are not misplaced. The Spellings Commission stated: "...we are disturbed by evidence that the quality of student learning at U.S. colleges and universities is inadequate and, in some cases, declining. A number of recent studies highlight the shortcomings of postsecondary institutions in everything from graduation rates and time to degree to learning outcomes and even core literacy skills. According to the most recent National Assessment of Adult Literacy, for instance, the percentage of college graduates deemed proficient in prose literacy has actually declined from 40 to 31 percent in the past decade."

If only 31 percent of college graduates are proficient in prose literacy, there's surely a problem.

Just to add, we can't overlook the impact that smart phones are having on levels of concentration and cognitive development.

https://isminc.com/advisory/publications/the-source/the-impact-of-smartphones-on-concentration-and-cognitive-abilities

On smart phones the tendancy is towards bite sized pieces of information (Twitter Vs Livejournal), I'm not sure if studies have been done on what long term impact this is having on how we frame our understanding of the world.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't. I don't see them waving Nazi flags, carrying assault weapons and spreading conspiracy theories. The both sides defence is just a tired old trope at this stage.

I agree, but then, so too is the pushing of everything uncomfortable on to the right.

I disagree. The man is a moral, cultural and political tumour. A media conspiracy against him would be completely pointless as all they have to do is check on the latest diarrhoea emanating from his Twitter account.

We're not completely at odds here. I can't stand Trump. But then I couldn't stand GW Bush either, and Obama made my spider senses tingle.

As for the media, not when he first got elected. Back then, he wasn't quite the way he is now, and the media campaign continued past the election period, right into his actual presidency. My money is on H.Clinton urging a lot of the bitching to happen... In any case, it doesn't change what I originally said...

FutureGuy

Oh and for the people who think this is a US phenomenon, it's here in Ireland too and is embedding itself at University level.

Give it a few years.

Bonniedog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't. I don't see them waving Nazi flags, carrying assault weapons and spreading conspiracy theories. .

We do see "anti fascists" attacking the graves and memorials of actual anti fascists. The GIs who died defeating the actual Nazis not the makey up ones.

Anyway, as a good leftie you will be taking the side of Massa Biden who thiks all the black folks is not really black unless they vote for an idiot like him. This was before they put him back in the basement with the Kool Aid.

Anyway, the American left would support Charlie Manson if he was the Democrat candidate.

wildeside

Bonniedog wrote: »

I can't find it now but someone said something to effect that left was always on the side of science.

Really? Well they never read Engels' embarrassing nonsense which sought to shoehorn all sorts of actual science into "scientific socialism."

Nor are they familiar with Soviet science which had as one of its heroes Lysenko who thought that man made changes to plants and animals would be inherited over a number of generations. Geneticists who said this was medieval nonsense were sent to camps and murdered.

Likewise, the Soviets denounced the theory of relativity, quantum physics and the Big Bang (originated by a Belgian priest Lemaitre) as "bourgeois." The Nazis denounced the same theories as "Jewish physics."!

Same totalitarian attack on science and truth underlies transgenderism. Thankfully, its political advocates do not have the political power to do as they would like to and murder any dissenting voices. So they have to be content with censorship.

Being on the left myself I used to always think people on the left were pro-science and pro-fact-based reasoning whereas people to the right of me were not. This was a source of pride (and to be honest a certain amount of smugness) to some degree.

Now I see the left has been hijacked by the very same type of idiot extremists you find on the far-right. People who are anti-intellectual. People who cannot and do not want to be reasoned with i.e. unreasonable people.

Uniquely I think people's rational thinking skills on the left can be subverted by cynically exploiting genuine feelings such as empathy, kindness and a simple desire to make the world a better place. Too many people I know on the left are a bit of a 'soft touch' and quite easily manipulated if you know what heart strings to pull. I think it's different on the right where it's the emotions of 'fear' and 'hate' that are exploited to justify the extreme views.

Faulty thinking should be challenged and called out no matter where the ideas are coming from. But in order to weed out bad ideas it must first be possible to discuss them.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

"Seventh, American universities have lost some popular political support, in part because of excessive campus intolerance of views deviating from the dominant left-wing campus progressive perspective that large portions of the potential college-going American population find uncomfortable, almost un-American. Campus protests, the Cancel Culture, and other suppression of intellectual diversity and heated but civilized debate put off many Americans, as a good deal of polling by Pew and Gallup has indicated.

American universities have become too arrogant, bloated with expensive non-academic apparatchiks, and too far out of the mainstream of American life. They have been doing less for more, and America is getting sick and tired of it. The ongoing market correction that will kill off some schools and scare most others could, in time, be a salutary lesson for university leaders, leading to a return to the basics of non-nonsense teaching of virtue, knowledge, and beauty, and encouraging innovation and enterprise. For America’s sake, let’s hope so."

The previous six points seem rather sound too.

That's actually quite a well written piece. I thought he was going to moan about progressives but he makes a lot of good points.

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree, but then, so too is the pushing of everything uncomfortable on to the right.

I'm not pushing everything uncomfortable to the right. I just question the idea that the right are supposed to be the defenders of free speech when so much of it doesn't seem to bothered by the waving of swastikas. I'm not saying that right wingers are Nazis but it would be nice to hear more criticism of authoritarianism from them.

Deleted User wrote: »

We're not completely at odds here. I can't stand Trump. But then I couldn't stand GW Bush either, and Obama made my spider senses tingle.

As for the media, not when he first got elected. Back then, he wasn't quite the way he is now, and the media campaign continued past the election period, right into his actual presidency. My money is on H.Clinton urging a lot of the bitching to happen... In any case, it doesn't change what I originally said...

My interest in Politics started the year before Brexit so I can't comment on Bush or Obama.

SlowMotion321

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Just to add, we can't overlook the impact that smart phones are having on levels of concentration and cognitive development.

https://isminc.com/advisory/publications/the-source/the-impact-of-smartphones-on-concentration-and-cognitive-abilities

On smart phones the tendancy is towards bite sized pieces of information (Twitter Vs Livejournal), I'm not sure if studies have been done on what long term impact this is having on how we frame our understanding of the world.

TLDR

2u2me

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't. I don't see them waving Nazi Antifa flags, carrying assault weapons and spreading conspiracy theories.
.

Assault weapons for the left too.

Spreading conspiracy theories you're having a laugh right...?

How long exactly did Trump's Russiagate drag on for?

Chris_Heilong

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

US education fees being exorbitant does not mean that education standards are slipping.

That USA today piece looks like a blog post. If you've actual scientific evidence, I feel like I would have seen it by now.

Free speech comes with accountability. This is what Trump and his acolytes despise. I'm not going to go searching for a video that you've not even bothered to link. Frankly, this sort of ownage culture is a big part of the problem with political discourse in the US.

If you mean people should be accountable for what they say then that is a different conversation to free speech.

The usual line you hear from woke left people is "free speech is not free from consequences"
Then it is not free speech, because people are not free to say something if there are going to be strong ramifications as that makes it not free at all, true free speech means you can say what ever you want and the only rebuttal will be someone else using their free speech to say they disagree.

If you are told you are free to commit a crime but not free of getting arrested for it then you are not free to commit a crime are you?

Tired Gardener

wildeside wrote: »

Uniquely I think people's rational thinking skills on the left can be subverted by cynically exploiting genuine feelings such as empathy, kindness and a simple desire to make the world a better place. Too many people I know on the left are a bit of a 'soft touch' and quite easily manipulated if you know what heart strings to pull. I think it's different on the right where it's the emotions of 'fear' and 'hate' that are exploited to justify the extreme views.

Essentially, it highlights that love/care and hate/fear can both be equally damaging... but for entirely different reasons. When anything is taken to extremes, it becomes very dangerous and not able to reconcile with anything that isn't also extreme.

SlowMotion321 wrote: »

TLDR

Haha! Nice.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not pushing everything uncomfortable to the right. I just question the idea that the right are supposed to be the defenders of free speech when so much of it doesn't seem to bothered by the waving of swastikas. I'm not saying that right wingers are Nazis but it would be nice to hear more criticism of authoritarianism from them.

The problem is that we're not allowed to have a center anymore. It's either left or right. I've always considered myself very flexible in that I'd swing left on some issues and right on others, but over the last decade, I've found myself being pushed into the right simply because I don't embrace everything that the left supposedly stands for.

My interest in Politics started the year before Brexit so I can't comment on Bush or Obama.

I have little interest in US politics, except where it touches the world. Which is why Bush and Obama peaked my interest, as does Trump. I tend to avoid the infighting that has arisen due to Trump winning.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem is that we're not allowed to have a center anymore. It's either left or right. I've always considered myself very flexible in that I'd swing left on some issues and right on others, but over the last decade, I've found myself being pushed into the right simply because I don't embrace everything that the left supposedly stands for.

I have little interest in US politics, except where it touches the world. Which is why Bush and Obama peaked my interest, as does Trump. I tend to avoid the infighting that has arisen due to Trump winning.

Who's telling you that you can't have a centre? I understand that there's an unprecendeted degree of polarisation in modern countries but an awful lot of that is just noise on the internet which frankly, I think people need to use with a lot more care and moderation.

SlowMotion321

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem is that we're not allowed to have a center anymore. It's either left or right. I've always considered myself very flexible in that I'd swing left on some issues and right on others, but over the last decade, I've found myself being pushed into the right simply because I don't embrace everything that the left supposedly stands for.

I often feel the same way and think I won't say anything because it will just start off the baying mob "unbeliever! get the pitchforks!". But then again I have never been able to keep my mouth shut :P

Bonniedog

2u2me wrote: »

Assault weapons for the left too.



How long exactly did Trump's Russiagate drag on for?

He has spent four years fighting a virtual coup d'etat which began with groundless attempts to impeach and which has morphed into open violence by groups which support the Democrats and in turn who have been given political and other support by Democrat run cities.

wildeside

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who's telling you that you can't have a centre? I understand that there's an unprecendeted degree of polarisation in modern countries but an awful lot of that is just noise on the internet which frankly, I think people need to use with a lot more care and moderation.

You've highlighted the problem yourself. The problem is one of hyper-polarisation. The moderate voices in the centre are either being pushed out of the conversations that now just seem to take place at the extremes or these moderate voices are volutarily bowing out in an attempt to stay sane amidst the madness of crowds.

And it's not just benign "noise on the internet". This noise is having very real political impact which in turns is impacting people's lives (e.g. job loss for 'wrong think', new progressive laws allowing children to transition, diversity quotas)

In fairness I think you're completely misrepresenting what's actually happening in the modern culture war. And this is not something anyone who regards themselves as a liberal, democrat and citizen should simply ignore.

Tired Gardener

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who's telling you that you can't have a centre? I understand that there's an unprecendeted degree of polarisation in modern countries but an awful lot of that is just noise on the internet which frankly, I think people need to use with a lot more care and moderation.

While that is nice in theory, the reality is that if people don't agree with something that is trending they can lose their job.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/jk-rowling-supports-author-sacked-for-transgender-tweets-4942524-Dec2019/%3famp=1

In this case it was Conor Daily's dad who said something back in 1980's... so before Conor was even born, yet that was enough for him to lose sponsorship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/24/sports/autoracing/conor-daly-nascar-racial-slur.html

This is impacting people's jobs.

rossie1977

2u2me wrote: »

Assault weapons for the left too.

Spreading conspiracy theories you're having a laugh right...?

How long exactly did Trump's Russiagate drag on for?

The one where numerous members of Trumps campaign team were arrested and jailed?

wildeside

Tired Gardener wrote: »

While that is nice in theory, the reality is that if people don't agree with something that is trending they can lose their job.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/jk-rowling-supports-author-sacked-for-transgender-tweets-4942524-Dec2019/%3famp=1

In this case it was Conor Daily's dad who said something back in 1980's... so before Conor was even born, yet that was enough for him to lose sponsorship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/24/sports/autoracing/conor-daly-nascar-racial-slur.html

This is impacting people's jobs.

You know your ideology/movement is mentally unhinged when you have to go back over 30 years to find something ignorant somebody once said that does not live up contemporary social or moral standards.

I wonder if Frank Sinatra possibly harboured very or even slightly homophobic or racist views or thought a woman's place was in the home perhaps? Someone should start digging and find out because the consequences of not knowing don't bare thinking about.

rossie1977

Deleted User wrote: »

American politics has swung dramatically, as has their media. The bile that comes out of the media, politicians, and lobbyists regarding Trump would have been unheard of during GW Bush's time. While there was the occasional reporter with extreme views, they were a rarity. Now, it's the norm.

Bile..what bile? The media treat Trump like a fun celebrity. Not a single scandal is focused on for more than 24 hours. We find out Trump paid off a porn star while his wife was pregnant. That one story would have destroyed any previous president and the media would focus on it for months.. Trump no, forgotten about following day.

The same media had Hillarys emails on front page of NY Times 13 out of the last 14 days of 16 election season. .

I was watching July 4th CNN coverage for 5 minutes and the reporter said Trump surrounds himself with 10 times as many flags as any other president. Instead of that flicking a switch in the reporters mind they moved onto next topic.

I wouldn't trust the rankings because it's so damn politically motivated. Their culture has swung so damn much. Obama did so much to further increase the divisions within American society, with Trump adding the icing to that cake.

If you don't trust historians then who exactly do you trust?

What exactly did Obama do to increase divisions?

In any case, you didn't really answer my point. Do you think Trump is worse than GW? Seriously. Not as an American, but as an Irish person looking in from the outside and disconnected by most of the drama.

Far worse.

What Trump has done has damaged the institutions of power for decades. As said its now very easy for a smarter person than Trump to just waltz in and become the US version of Putin or Orban because the Republicans have shown they will stick by their guy regardless what he or she does. Trump claims he has totally immunity as President and the Republicans are actually implementing this..this opens the door to absolute chaos in the future.

Bush released his tax returns.
Bush did not ask Russia for help to win election
Bush didn't use office of president to further his business interests.
Bush did not hire family members to work in White House.
Bush did not call the press the enemy of the people
Bush did not gas asylum seekers at the border
Bush did not gas Americans so he could hold a bible upside down.
Bush did not tell American born women to go back to their own country
Bush did not ban Muslims entering the US
Bush did not call Mexicans dogs and rapists
Bush did not ask a foreign country to dig up dirt on his political rival
Bush did not sign an order so that civilian deaths are no longer reported
Bush did not go out of his way to rollback all his predecessors orders and laws.
Bush did not ignore science
Bush did not call nazis marching with tiki torches 'fine people'.
Bush did not quote fascist dictators in earnest.
Bush did not leave hundreds of important government roles empty and then employ specific people in departments like Pruitt in EPA for sole purpose of destroying them from within.

joe40

FutureGuy wrote: »

If people think cancel culture is a myth, try having an open debate on Facebook about the dangers of transitioning young children or assigning them a gender from an early age.

Or trans people competing in women's sports.

Or someone pointing out that some police are good and some black people are bad.

See how that goes.

I have heard plenty of people on Twitter and Facebook and board's also, passionately defend those views. US campuses may have got silly but there is still plenty of debate on all those issues. We had 2 referendums on big social issues in the last five years, gay marriage and repeal of the 8th. In both cases there was robust debate.
I think it is disingenuous to say there is no debate allowed anymore.

Skylinehead

rossie1977 wrote: »

Bush didn't use office of president to further his business interests.

As awful as Trump is, and look at any of my posts regarding him (not recently, I'm burned out on US politics), this isn't true. Bush started an (illegal) war to further his and his administrations business interests. The Bush presidency is one of the very worst out there.

TheValeyard

Skylinehead wrote: »

As awful as Trump is, and look at any of my posts regarding him (not recently, I'm burned out on US politics), this isn't true. Bush started an (illegal) war to further his and his administrations business interests. The Bush presidency is one of the very worst out there.

And VP Dick Cheney made tens of millions in that war because his companies supplied stuff for the war effort. A truly disgusting human being.
















He also shot a 78 year old man in the face after mistaking him for a duck.

rossie1977

Skylinehead wrote: »

As awful as Trump is, and look at any of my posts regarding him (not recently, I'm burned out on US politics), this isn't true. Bush started an (illegal) war to further his and his administrations business interests. The Bush presidency is one of the very worst out there.

Regardless who was president on 9/11 the American people would have wanted revenge and a war was happening either way. The vast majority of the House and Senate voted in favour of that war let's not forget.

Yes certain American companies benefitted from the war like Halliburton which has ties to Cheney but Bush never went out of his way to flaunt his own personal business while president.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who's telling you that you can't have a centre? I understand that there's an unprecendeted degree of polarisation in modern countries but an awful lot of that is just noise on the internet which frankly, I think people need to use with a lot more care and moderation.

Ahh well, the problem for me is that I lecture so I'm on university campuses abroad. While most of the time I'm in China where there is a different kind of censorship, I also travel for my university to campuses in the US or the UK as a representative. So, I've noticed pressure being applied to box social or political opinions into very strict guidelines.. left being acceptable, right being unacceptable.

I agree that a lot of this is happening online, but I don't think you realise just how integrated online environments have become with RL. Perhaps social media hasn't developed to such a stage in Ireland, but it certainly has in many countries worldwide. It's often difficult to avoid internet trends, even though, I don't actually have any social media applications beyond boards, or wechat.