Earth-lined slurry storage

Siamsa Sessions

Hi all,

Like so many others, I’m doing some homework on milking cows. We were dairy farmers here until 2001 but no cows here since then.

Before I consider a dozen other angles, there’s one issue that might stop everything - slurry storage.

We have an old earth-lined lagoon beside the cubicles that was fine 20 years ago but I’m not sure if it’d be possible to upgrade it to the spec needed now. It hasn’t been used (or inspected) since 2001. Apparently, the County Council and the Dept would have to OK it. Bord Bia would also have to pass it since both co-ops I could supply insist on being in the SDAS.

Does anyone know whether the Dept or County Council are the ultimate decision-maker? That is, should I approach one before the other?

I’m sure we can have a discussion on the pros and cons of milking cows at a future stage but I’m just trying to gather facts that’ll help estimate outline costs at this stage.

Any pointers would be most welcome.

Thanks

Mooooo

They're not allowed anymore. Neighbour was using one with no issue and was told it wasn't acceptable anymore despite no leaks etc so poured a concrete tank instead. There may be possible changes to slurry storage being open in the future so best to see how that may be integrated. May be possible to line it but dunno of the cost

Donald Trump

Mooooo wrote: »

They're not allowed anymore. Neighbour was using one with no issue and was told it wasn't acceptable anymore despite no leaks etc so poured a concrete tank instead. There may be possible changes to slurry storage being open in the future so best to see how that may be integrated. May be possible to line it but dunno of the cost

Are you sure? I think they are allowed in certain parts of the country. Not that I'd recommend them but they used to be given as an option in the Teagasc info docs.

Mooooo

Donald Trump wrote: »

Are you sure? I think they are allowed in certain parts of the country. Not that I'd recommend them but they used to be given as an option in the Teagasc info docs.

Nearly certain it was department inspection not a council one in which he was told, will have to double check.

Donald Trump

Mooooo wrote: »

Nearly certain it was department inspection not a council one in which he was told, will have to double check.

I am not sure that you'd actually get permission for one. I just think that technically they are a "possibility" in certain areas of the country..........but it might take you more effort proving suitability than it would to put in the concrete!

(or a receiving tank and tower)

Siamsa Sessions

Thanks for the replies.

They are still in the Teagasc booklet on wintering facilities but I guess that doesn’t mean an individual Dept inspector or CoCo official will say it’s OK.

I’ll keep digging around for info anyway.

A neighbour is milking 50 cows here and had to dig a hole and put in a concrete tank earlier this year. He put slats on top and will eventually put a roof over it, he said.

Ground work, concrete, and slats cost the bones of 30k. Would that be ballpark for capacity to cover 50 cows?

Waffletraktor

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

Like so many others, I’m doing some homework on milking cows. We were dairy farmers here until 2001 but no cows here since then.

Before I consider a dozen other angles, there’s one issue that might stop everything - slurry storage.

We have an old earth-lined lagoon beside the cubicles that was fine 20 years ago but I’m not sure if it’d be possible to upgrade it to the spec needed now. It hasn’t been used (or inspected) since 2001. Apparently, the County Council and the Dept would have to OK it. Bord Bia would also have to pass it since both co-ops I could supply insist on being in the SDAS.

Does anyone know whether the Dept or County Council are the ultimate decision-maker? That is, should I approach one before the other?

I’m sure we can have a discussion on the pros and cons of milking cows at a future stage but I’m just trying to gather facts that’ll help estimate outline costs at this stage.

Any pointers would be most welcome.

Thanks

Slurry bags set into a lagoon/bund are becoming popular for storing slurry or digestate on farms. Need a pipe underneath for water removel/slurry removal if needed but doesnt need to be lined with clay like a normal bund/lagoon would and avoid need fpor a roof.

Siamsa Sessions

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Slurry bags set into a lagoon/bund are becoming popular for storing slurry or digestate on farms. Need a pipe underneath for water removel/slurry removal if needed but doesnt need to be lined with clay like a normal bund/lagoon would and avoid need fpor a roof.

Just Googled them and it might be an option alright, although they seem expensive enough. There’s a few options at the link below. The earth-lined option is the cheapest so I think Plan A is to see if they’re still OK here. If they are, I’ll see if ours can be cleaned up. If it can’t then I might look into digging a new one.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/guide-choosing-installing-slurry-store

Base price

Just be careful about basing your financial expenses on a lined lagoon. A recent plan by ex Minister Creed committed to - "Require all newly constructed external slurry stores to be covered by 2022 and all recently constructed external slurry stores (i.e. within the last 5 years) by 2025"
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/government-publishes-plan-to-tackle-agriculture-emissions-38699895.html?fbclid=IwAR0AJArGpu9xMk3jvAlrzGr70PsRFqdncS743rkbxmR6UqhFCh0g-XsA24o

richie123

Base price wrote: »

Just be careful about basing your financial expenses on a lined lagoon. A recent plan by ex Minister Creed committed to - "Require all newly constructed external slurry stores to be covered by 2022 and all recently constructed external slurry stores (i.e. within the last 5 years) by 2025"
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/government-publishes-plan-to-tackle-agriculture-emissions-38699895.html?fbclid=IwAR0AJArGpu9xMk3jvAlrzGr70PsRFqdncS743rkbxmR6UqhFCh0g-XsA24o

I saw that too.youd wonder how on earth it could be done.it would cost a solid fortune!

cute geoge

I can not believe in this day and age any type of earth bank lagoon is approved by any co council or dept. of ag. Sure everyone would have plenty of storage if that was the way .Any one inspected with earth bank lagoon at this stage would probably lose the most of their farm payments

richie123

I actually think lined lagoons are the best way to store slurry provided they are built oversized for there purpose.
Can't understand the reasoning for forcing lads to cover them as the rain fall keeps it watery and a lot easier to agitate.
What emmisions would be saved by putting a roof on it would be lost by the farmers having to draw water and agitate a lot longer.

20silkcut

Friend of mine was on a farm in England recently. He said all the sheds there had their floors lowered by around 2-3 feet and straw just blown into them and allowed to build up on them. No slurry storage just all straw. Cattle were thriving on it. Sheds cleaned maybe once or twice during the winter.
You’d imagine the sheds would have to be on reasonably high ground to start with.
The dung from the farm had to be given to local tillage farmers. I presume the same farmers who gave them the straw.

Donald Trump

20silkcut wrote: »

Friend of mine was on a farm in England recently. He said all the sheds there had their floors lowered by around 2-3 feet and straw just blown into them and allowed to build up on them. No slurry storage just all straw. Cattle were thriving on it. Sheds cleaned maybe once or twice during the winter.
You’d imagine the sheds would have to be on reasonably high ground to start with.
The dung from the farm had to be given to local tillage farmers. I presume the same farmers who gave them the straw.

Not sure why you'd lower the floor.....surely you'd want liquid to be able to run out of it (obviously supposed to be collected in a tank) if you can. The department specs for grants here will specify a particular slope of a floor for that very reason

blackbox

richie123 wrote: »

I actually think lined lagoons are the best way to store slurry provided they are built oversized for there purpose.
Can't understand the reasoning for forcing lads to cover them as the rain fall keeps it watery and a lot easier to agitate.
What emmisions would be saved by putting a roof on it would be lost by the farmers having to draw water and agitate a lot longer.

I would imagine it is to prevent overflow if there is torrential rain and it was already full.

20silkcut

Donald Trump wrote: »

Not sure why you'd lower the floor.....surely you'd want liquid to be able to run out of it (obviously supposed to be collected in a tank) if you can. The department specs for grants here will specify a particular slope of a floor for that very reason

Would the straw not soak up the urine ? Would it make for better straw when soaked in urine?
They must be using a savage amount of straw. In my experience putting big cattle on straw is hardship. I don’t have any blowers or anything though.
Anyone here using straw blowers?
Can they be dangerous if there are stones in the straw?

Donald Trump

20silkcut wrote: »

Would the straw not soak up the urine ? Would it make for better straw when soaked in urine?
They must be using a savage amount of straw. In my experience putting big cattle on straw is hardship. I don’t have any blowers or anything though.
Anyone here using straw blowers?
Can they be dangerous if there are stones in the straw?

It would soak into the straw, but you are going to use more of it compared to what you would use if some of the liquid could flow away and keep what is underneath that little bit drier


Blowers/choppers are fine. Never had an issue with stones. There is one here the last 15 years. It was the type of thing that you'd think was a gimmick or a waste of money until you have it. Wouldn't be without it now

Dinzee Conlee

Donald Trump wrote: »

Not sure why you'd lower the floor.....surely you'd want liquid to be able to run out of it (obviously supposed to be collected in a tank) if you can. The department specs for grants here will specify a particular slope of a floor for that very reason

I wonder did they mean the floor was lower on either side of a feed passage, to allow room for the straw/dung to rise up and the cattle still able to eat silage off the ground in the passage?

Keepgrowing

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

Like so many others, I’m doing some homework on milking cows. We were dairy farmers here until 2001 but no cows here since then.

Before I consider a dozen other angles, there’s one issue that might stop everything - slurry storage.

We have an old earth-lined lagoon beside the cubicles that was fine 20 years ago but I’m not sure if it’d be possible to upgrade it to the spec needed now. It hasn’t been used (or inspected) since 2001. Apparently, the County Council and the Dept would have to OK it. Bord Bia would also have to pass it since both co-ops I could supply insist on being in the SDAS.

Does anyone know whether the Dept or County Council are the ultimate decision-maker? That is, should I approach one before the other?

I’m sure we can have a discussion on the pros and cons of milking cows at a future stage but I’m just trying to gather facts that’ll help estimate outline costs at this stage.

Any pointers would be most welcome.

Thanks

If you can get an engineer to certify your lagoon you are allowed use it with no penalty. The job you’ll have is to find an engineer prepared to do so. I know people who’ve done this.

Another option is to contact LSW and they can plastic line lagoon and give 20 year cert, done that here with an old earth bank lagoon.

Donald Trump

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I wonder did they mean the floor was lower on either side of a feed passage, to allow room for the straw/dung to rise up and the cattle still able to eat silage off the ground in the passage?

Possibly. But if you have a concrete floor, and a dungstead, you are better off just emptying it every couple of weeks anyway.

Waffletraktor

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Just Googled them and it might be an option alright, although they seem expensive enough. There’s a few options at the link below. The earth-lined option is the cheapest so I think Plan A is to see if they’re still OK here. If they are, I’ll see if ours can be cleaned up. If it can’t then I might look into digging a new one.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/guide-choosing-installing-slurry-store

I think the landscape has changed as there's recent rules needing stores to be covered and i think precision applicators ie. non splash plate in certain months of the year or something to that extent. Tbf the only bags i've seen are more used to store digestate from biogas plants which is virtually the same as watery slurry in consistency and colour.

Bass Reeves

At the end of the day concrete is the cheapest long-term. If you can get your ducks in a row and be ready for s TAMS scheme you get a right shed build for the right money

Castlekeeper

Lagoons are a bad job outside leinster (roughly), as precipitation exceeds evaporation in most of the rest of the country so there's longer winters and a lot more water to be stored. Liners have been known to leak/ rupture too.
Too much liquid slurry isn't great for land either, imho!

Siamsa Sessions

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Lagoons are a bad job outside leinster (roughly), as precipitation exceeds evaporation in most of the rest of the country so there's longer winters and a lot more water to be stored. Liners have been known to leak/ rupture too.
Too much liquid slurry isn't great for land either, imho!

I'm on the south-east coast so should be OK.

Still trying to get info from Dept. I rang the cross-compliance section and after speaking to 3 different people I was eventually put thru to the nitrates section where someone took my name and number, and said someone would ring me back.

I was pleasantly surprised when someone did ring me back within the hour. But it was easy for him to ring back, as his view was that I needed to talk to someone in the cross-compliance section!

Anyway, I'll keep trying to find out more info. If I come across anything that might be useful to others, I'll post it here.

I looked up Geoline/LSW too. And then discovered they have an office 3 miles from me here. Shouldn't be that hard to get them out for a look/quote hopefully.

Mooooo

I'd say get quotes for lining it and for a concrete tank. Can have as much info as possible then. Design concrete tank so slats and / or a shed can be added at a later date of required.

Siamsa Sessions

Mooooo wrote: »

I'd say get quotes for lining it and for a concrete tank. Can have as much info as possible then. Design concrete tank so slats and / or a shed can be added at a later date of required.

That's what the neighbour did here - he put in the concrete tank and slats and he said he'll add the shed when funds allow.

I spoke to another dairy man last week and he said a small separate tank for dairy washings would be a great investment since you can spread that during the closed slurry period.

But I'm guessing that's more so for larger herds or winter milk.

Say my name

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

That's what the neighbour did here - he put in the concrete tank and slats and he said he'll add the shed when funds allow.

I spoke to another dairy man last week and he said a small separate tank for dairy washings would be a great investment since you can spread that during the closed slurry period.

But I'm guessing that's more so for larger herds or winter milk.

I have a separate tank myself for the dairy washings.
Ah you'd want it separate. Even if you wanted to add slurry bugs to the big tank you can do it but it wouldn't work if the wash goes into it.
Then you can add other amendments to the parlour tank during the grazing season to thicken it out.

richie123

If u go for an oversized lined lagoon ..you'll save a solid fortune on slats and concrete.
Lagoon all the way imo.

Siamsa Sessions

Spoke to Geoline yesterday and the lady was very helpful. Our county council however is the only one in the country that doesn't accept lined lagoons for slurry storage.

Tried the cross compliance office again after that and they put me thru to TAMS this time. A guy I spoke to there told me all about GLAS and the grant for restoring farm buildings. Interesting stuff but not much use to me when it's the structural requirements of slurry storage I need to know about.

I might bite the bullet and ring the local Teagasc office today. I'm not a member and I don't want to pay a year's subscription just for someone to call out once and tell me the lagoon we have is not within an ass's roar of being OK-ed. But sure I might ring them and see what they say over the phone anyway.

Bass Reeves

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Spoke to Geoline yesterday and the lady was very helpful. Our county council however is the only one in the country that doesn't accept lined lagoons for slurry storage.

Tried the cross compliance office again after that and they put me thru to TAMS this time. A guy I spoke to there told me all about GLAS and the grant for restoring farm buildings. Interesting stuff but not much use to me when it's the structural requirements of slurry storage I need to know about.

I might bite the bullet and ring the local Teagasc office today. I'm not a member and I don't want to pay a year's subscription just for someone to call out once and tell me the lagoon we have is not within an ass's roar of being OK-ed. But sure I might ring them and see what they say over the phone anyway.

Its immaterial your County Council will not give planning for a Lagoon. You do not have to go any further. Ring the Council to confirm

tractorporn

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Its immaterial your County Council will not give planning for a Lagoon. You do not have to go any further. Ring the Council to confirm

Surely there's no need for planning for an existing structure? It's more from an environmental point of view where the op might run into trouble?

Bass Reeves

tractorporn wrote: »

Surely there's no need for planning for an existing structure? It's more from an environmental point of view where the op might run into trouble?

If you are changing the structure, making it bigger/smaller/deeper/longer etc strictly you need planning. You can also only replace like for like finally you have to factor there was no planning in the first place

Siamsa Sessions

Thanks again folks for the comments.

After a few more phone calls yesterday, my head is starting to clear a bit. Most of the following is not set in stone, but is enough to mean dairy remains an option for us at this stage:

* County Council are really only called on if there's a new building going up and you're applying for planning

* As Bass said above, a lined lagoon is off the agenda since our CoCo won't accept them

* Dept are most likely to question the existing structure if/when an inspection takes place

* The two co-ops I could supply (very little between them apparently) both require their suppliers to be in Bord Bia; they are more concerned with safety and the structure being fenced off properly rather than checking the structure itself for leaks

* Advisors: independent lads and the official lads may vary in their opinions - better to speak to both and try figure out the balance between the two

* 35-40 cows is enough to get started with and might even be enough to make a living on, depending on fixed/business costs (had a very interesting chat with the man told me this!)

Have a few more phone calls to make over the coming days and hopefully I'll have more of an idea then