Abortion in Ireland: 2 years on

yerwanthere123

Voted to repeal and would still do so.

Acosta

I'm delighted the women of Ireland no longer need to justify themselves to the Iona Youth Defence crowd.

fits

It’s a very high number for a not inconsequential procedure for many. I’d prefer if it was lower.

However voted yes and still woyld.

sydthebeat

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1116484/

(1999) In total, 5892 women who had abortions in Britain last year gave their address as being in the republic, compared with the 1997 figure of 5336.

in 2001 the figure was 6,673

the numbers today match what the historical numbers were that travelled.

johnnyryan89

seamus wrote: »

Where did that 3,061 come from though?

My understanding is that previous to 2019, this data was collected from UK statistics based on the home address of women who had obtained abortions there.

Which means that realistically 3,061 is a minimum figure. How many women didn't give an Irish home address? How many gave a local address so as to remain anonymous? How many went to other places in Europe - EU citizens would probably go to their home country to get an abortion rather than go to England.

It doesn't seem to me that the Irish public have been misled. Far from it - that 3,061 is an honest figure - "These are the women that we know about, who are going to the UK". Where they could have done all sorts of extrapolations and manipulations, they didn't.

It now seems likely that the numbers we had underestimated the number of abortions by more than 50%.

Would I change my vote? Nope. Absolutely not. This even solidifies further for me that it was the right thing to do.

The number of 6,666 last year is statistic zero. It is the first time we have an actual, traceable number for the number of Irish residents getting abortions.

If it shoots up next year, you might have a point.

Also how many people would have ordered dodgy pills from the internet rather than travel abroad.

1hnr79jr65

As a guy i voted Yes for abortion and i still would. There are certain circumstances where by i would not agree with abortion (not religious reasons as im not religious), however to ensure women had access to the facility if they felt they needed it, i thought it was the right thing to do voting yes.

For those that argue the point about "potential fathers rights", well until a baby is born, that's all the person is in this equation is a potential father. Zero rights to make a decision on a woman's welfare and body autonomy as it should be, perhaps if you could carry the embryo to term then maybe there would be a case to argue there.

dubstepper

The abortion factories Waters warned us of never appeared. I thought he was going to leave the country if it passed? More hot air.

The Mighty Quinn

KiKi III wrote: »

abortion on request up to 12 weeks.

Thanks for cleaning this up KiKi. I really dislike the "on demand" terminology.

Glinda

The number hovered around four thousand for decades. That's just the number who travelled to Britain and who also gave their address as being in Ireland.

The most likely explanation for the fall in numbers in recent years is 1. the availability of medical abortions (i.e. pills) that can be bought on the internet and taken at home in private without the need for surgery and 2. the inclusion now of women who would previously (and understandably) not have given their true home address when registering in Britain.

This is the first time there has ever been an accurate count of the number of Irish women availing of a safe and legal abortion service.

What is and isn't a good reason to have an abortion is only a question you need to form an opinion on if you are the person concerned, or they have asked you for advice. Otherwise, something is happening to their body, with potentially life-altering consequences, so the decision should be theirs. Nobody else has anywhere near as much to lose. So nobody else should get to decide.

Ultimately, despite recent legal changes, I think we are still struggling wiht the idea that a woman who has an abortion isn't doing anything wrong. We still have a little way to go on this one - I think some are still patting themselves on the back for forgiving these women, or tolerating their behaviour, but there is a lingering sense that the women should be ashamed. They shouldn't.

If you want to do something genuine about abortion rates, do something about unwanted pregnancy. And that would need to be something that works. But that would mean tackling a whole rats nest of issues, from misogynistic sexual shaming and stereotyping, to tackling education around consent, and allowing people real, free and educated control over their own sexual behaviour.

Funny, people who are against abortion are all too often against all the measures that have ever been shown to reduce it. You'd almost think it was really about controlling women...

Infini

I voted yes to repeal as well, it's up to those involved to deal with the issues, problems and complications involved not zealots with no buisness or involvement in personal matters.

SusieBlue

I was staunchly in favour of a Yes vote and I haven’t changed my opinion on that.

It’s a private matter between a woman and her doctor and it’s none of my business. Exporting our women to foreign healthcare services was a dark period in our history but I’m proud that we are now taking responsibility and looking after our citizens.

I still personally don’t think it’s something I’d ever do myself, but I don’t believe that gives me the authority to make that choice on behalf of other women and couples, whose circumstances and life story I know nothing about.

The dirty, manipulative, dishonest and hyperbolic campaign endorsed by the No vote shows how little they care for women or babies, where’s all the free contraception and better sex education that they promised? None of it came to fruition, they didn’t care then and they don’t care now.

seamus

quokula wrote: »

One thing I did notice amongst friends (who were pretty much 100% yes) is that pretty much every article and argument shared prior to the referendum was about women with serious medical conditions being denied life saving healthcare because of the baby (which I don't see how anyone could possibly argue against), then the day after the referendum that seemed to go out the window in favour of state-funded on demand abortion for anyone in any circumstances (which is of course more controversial)

It seemed a little disingenuous looking on from a distance. I'm not sure I even know what the state of the actual law is now as it hasn't personally effected me or anyone I know of - which is the reason I'd most likely lean towards yes as it is perhaps not my place to dictate.

As mentioned above, the intention to legislate for abortion up to 12 weeks was always there and was well publicised.

However, there is a good reason why there was a heavy focus on rape, suicide and FFAs;

The question was asked about why repeal was necessary at all - couldn't we legislate for rape, suicide and FFAs without changing the constitution? And the answer was no. We had taken the legislation as far as we could. The conditions to "qualify" for an abortion were very narrow and as such many women could not.
One particular case involved a young woman who was suicidal. And the process to determine whether she could get an abortion took so long that she ended up giving birth (under anaesthetic) to a live child 12 weeks early which was taken into care.
We also had a situation where a braindead pregnant women was kept on life support unnecessarily because there were questions about whether it was constitutional to let her die.

So we had to repeal the 8th amendment. Any suggestions to replace the text were similarly too narrow, to open to interpretation, too likely to result in women not being able to access abortion when they needed to.

So the next question was - If we repeal the 8th, surely we can legislate to allow abortion only for rape, suicide or FFA?

But it's the same answer. The result would be situations where women in need would not be able to access abortion and would have to lie, self-medicate or travel in order to get an abortion. The women who were at their most vulnerable were the ones we were trying to protect. And any roadblock to obtaining an abortion puts vulnerable women at risk.

So, it was settled on allowing an open regime where an abortion could be requested in the first twelve weeks, and later again for FFAs.
This still puts some vulnerable women at risk, and it would be my hope that we could expand this further, perhaps to 15 weeks. But for now it finds a balance between decency, autonomy and difficult ethical questions.

Tork

I voted to repeal the 8th and have no regrets. I'd do it again if the referendum was to be re-run. Nothing has changed for me in that regard.

What I would like to see is a breakdown of why all these abortions were sought and if there is anything that can be done to reduce the numbers. Some of these are unavoidable, such as fatal foetal abnormalities but my guess is that they make up a small percentage of the final figures. How many of these crisis pregnancies were as a result of people not using contraception properly or not using any at all? Are there problems accessing the morning after pill? Is cost a factor? Do we need to educate our teenagers better when they're still in school? How many of these women might have considered keeping their child if there were better supports in place? Other reasons?

Mearings

downinbigsmoke wrote: »

For full disclosure, I voted No in the referendum, which was apparently a pretty odd point of view for 21 year old Trinity student, who was otherwise not particularly right-wing. I would not change it.

Your full disclosure did not include your gender.

Hotblack Desiato

downinbigsmoke wrote: »

Now that we've all had time to collect our thoughts, I was hoping to gather some opinions on what people in this country think of the longterm effects Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 have been. With the benefit of hindsight, is there anybody who would have changed their vote?

I would hope not.
The legislation was published and it was very easy to understand what it was going to mean.
If anybody didn't bother to inform themselves before the vote then that's a reflection on them.

But the argument from the Yes side (made by most lobby groups) that I found most convincing is that legalising abortion would not change the raw number of abortions but only the locations. This has turned out to be completely untrue.

You have provided no basis for this assertion.

In 2017 (which was quite a high year) there were 3,061 abortions linked to Ireland in the UK.

Those are only the ones we know about, who gave an RoI address.
Some women travelled to countries other than the UK.
It ignores illegal abortion pills which are unquantifiable, although:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/decrease-in-number-of-irish-women-having-uk-abortions-1.3522768

One online provider reported that 1,217 women from Ireland “received the medical abortion pill” from their service in 2017. A second online provider reported that 878 women from the Republic “used the service” in 2017.

It seems to me (but maybe not you) the public have been mislead.

Everybody knew, or should have known, exactly what they were voting for.

BTW I don't think the current legislation goes nearly far enough, and I'm far from alone in thinking that. Some women are still having to travel to the UK. FF in Health though so we can probably forget about any meaningful change.

Hotblack Desiato

Glinda wrote: »

The most likely explanation for the fall in numbers in recent years is 1. the availability of medical abortions (i.e. pills) that can be bought on the internet and taken at home in private without the need for surgery and 2. the inclusion now of women who would previously (and understandably) not have given their true home address when registering in Britain.

Don't forget the morning-after pill.

SusieBlue wrote: »

The dirty, manipulative, dishonest and hyperbolic campaign endorsed by the No vote shows how little they care for women or babies, where’s all the free contraception and better sex education that they promised? None of it came to fruition, they didn’t care then and they don’t care now.

Did they actually promise any of that? I don't think so, the vast majority of them (the No campaign, as opposed to No voters) are religious fundies who are opposed to proper sex education, and often contraception as well.

Tork wrote: »

What I would like to see is a breakdown of why all these abortions were sought and if there is anything that can be done to reduce the numbers.

it's none of your business or anyone else's business.

screamer

I voted no, mainly because of the fact that it was just a blanket 12 week thing, and gives no choice to people who for example might have a foetus with downs to terminate as the testing is not available within a 12 week timeframe.
I think it’s sad there are so many unwanted pregnancies, but at the end of the day, no one (as in the do gooders who picket GP clinics) is going to help you raise that little person, be there to give you a hand or support in the middle of the night when you’re walking the floor with them, or generally give a fiddlers. From that point of view, if someone is not able/ interested or ready to bring another life into the world that decision is on them, and much as I don’t agree with it, I don’t judge them either.

Spanish Eyes

I would never want to see women oppressed in this country again, mostly by men who want to control them. That day is long gone thankfully regarding Divorce and Abortion now.

Most of the figures quoted represent those who can now access terminations within twelve weeks in tablet form. Heretofore it was over the internet. No one is identified, and there is medical follow up if needed.

Those who access abortions regarding FFA or threat to life of the mother will not do that to defy anyone, it must be heartbreaking to make that decision one way or another. Compassion and understanding are needed.

But anyway, it doesn't matter anymore, it is here, it is legal, and we have come a long way as a country.

Family and Life Organisation is one to watch though.

amdublin

I voted to repeal. I'd vote again that way if the referendum was tomorrow.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Whether or not abortion is morally correct is not the point of this thread, it is about the impact of the referendum and associated legislation on Ireland.

Tork

"Hotblack wrote:

it's none of your business or anyone else's business.

You missed my point by a mile. While I would never deny a woman the right to have an abortion here in Ireland, it would be better if the crisis pregnancy never happened in the first place. 6,666 terminations is a very high number, especially now that contraception is freely available. Abortions will always have to happen but the fewer of them, the better.

Igotadose

The data include 500+ people with 'unknown' residencies, 50-odd with Northern Ireland residencies, so the numbers are probably fairly close to historical averages, which in and of themselves are guesswork, taken from UK sites and ignoring women on waves and other online sources for ru486.

What I would like to know now, is the impact, if any, of the 3 day 'cooling off' restriction, which was found in the Netherlands to make no difference on the abortion rate. I'd like to see that removed, I doubt it had any impact whatsoever in Ireland. If it's not even being measured, even less reason to have it and it should be removed.

Recent report from the Department of Health: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b410b-health-regulation-of-termination-of-pregnancy-act-2018-annual-report-on-notifications-2019/



FD: Campaigned for Repeal, overjoyed at the result and would vote for it again. Oh, I'm male, too. My wife who has little online presence voted for repeal as well.

No, I would not change my vote. I voted yes, as I believed the 8th had to be repealed, and I believe that women deserved the right to safe and legal abortions in their own country.

That was the basis for my decision to vote yes, not the numbers who would avail of abortion if legalised. That never came into my decision, because that is none of my business.

Beechwoodspark

When I saw the figures earlier I did a double take.

I thought - come on, that has to be a typo or something.

We need to urgently review the legislation

Igotadose

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

When I saw the figures earlier I did a double take.

I thought - come on, that has to be a typo or something.

We need to urgently review the legislation

No we don't. It's fine

Beechwoodspark

Igotadose wrote: »

No we don't. It's fine

Speak for yourself

I’ve been talking to a few people today - some conservative, more liberal - and the overall attitude was shock. Some are in FF and FG and will be lobbying for a review and rightly so.

Igotadose

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Speak for yourself

I’ve been talking to a few people today - some conservative, more liberal - and the overall attitude was shock. Some are in FF and FG and will be lobbying for a review and rightly so.

Sure you were. Names or it didn't happen.

eviltwin

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

When I saw the figures earlier I did a double take.

I thought - come on, that has to be a typo or something.

We need to urgently review the legislation

Numbers are in line with what would be expected based on known numbers from previous years. What did you expect?

Beechwoodspark

Igotadose wrote: »

Sure you were. Names or it didn't happen.

They are ordinary party members, not at all known nationally.

Quantum Erasure

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What I would like to see is a breakdown of why all these abortions were sought and if there is anything that can be done to reduce the numbers.

it's none of your business or anyone else's business.

its not, like a lot of demographic statistics are'nt anyones business.

it'd be interesting though