Abortion in Ireland: 2 years on

Eric Cartman

Voted yes to repeal the 8th , might have changed my mind if I knew it was going to become this free for all abortion on demand system that we werre promised it wouldnt be before the referendum.

It shouldnt be taxpayer funded. Allow private clinics to perform it for money and allow all the charities and people that popped up and had so much money for posters and jumpers to fund those who cannot afford an abortion.

Women should have the freedom to have an abortion, but it shouldnt cost me when they do.

uptherebels

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Voted yes to repeal the 8th , might have changed my mind if I knew it was going to become this free for all abortion on demand system that we werre promised it wouldnt be before the referendum.

It shouldnt be taxpayer funded. Allow private clinics to perform it for money and allow all the charities and people that popped up and had so much money for posters and jumpers to fund those who cannot afford an abortion.

Women should have the freedom to have an abortion, but it shouldnt cost me when they do.

All maternity services are taxpayer funded. There were thousands of abortions before repeal, why did you believe they were suddenly going to disappear after? The government told you before the vote that it would be unrestricted access up to twelve weeks.

nozzferrahhtoo

Manach wrote: »

I noticed that the pro-abortion bagdges & stickers were still being worn up till last year. The release of the figures shows the price of such virtue signalling. The irony that the left seem to have embraced a term that includes the term "lives matter" when clearly it is only certain lives that do to them.

Yes sentient life with the capacity for suffering and/or well being. All of which a fetus is not.

The release of the figures does not show anything you just put spin on. The release of the figures show us that, as other users have pointed out, that the figures on abortion have remained essentially constant for decades now.

As for me, I have never once seen a "pro abortion" sticker or badge in my life. I suspect you are putting spin on that one too.

cournioni wrote: »

The gleeful celebrations following the result are stomach churning given those figures.

And to answer the OP my position remains unchanged because nothing about the figures that annoy him are relevant to the reasons I held that position. And as for celebrations "Following the result" I can only say that I STILL celebrate the result as progress and the right thing to do.

JL555 wrote: »

The fact that abortions seem to have increased should not be surprising to anyone

There is no real data suggesting they have increased though. That's the problem. The fact we are getting the FIRST real statistics for this country is being used to compare to previous guess work statistics. That is not an increase in anything but the accuracy of our numbers.

Seamai wrote: »

Lot of posters blindly repeating the right to choose mantra ad nauseam but what about personal responsibility?

Considering your choices and making the best choice for you in your circumstances.... even if it is a choice YOU personally do not like or would not make..... IS "personal responsibility".

Taking that choice away from them and making it illegal is not personal responsibility. IT would in fact be you/society taking responsibility vicariously on their behalf.

If truly care about "personal responsibility" in our world then that includes accepting, and living with, the fact that people will make choices we might not entirely agree with.

cournioni wrote: »

What I feared the referendum vote would achieve would be that people could choose to end the life of a healthy unborn based on a purely selfish decision by parents and without due consideration for the unborn as the protections weren’t there to protect it. The statistics that have been released confirm those fears to be legitimate.

They really don't though. They do absolutely no such thing at all. All the figures do is show that abortions that were once happening elsewhere are now happening HERE and in numbers that remain relatively consistent with our best but imperfect estimates over the last 30 years.

What we are doing is comparing a MORE complete figure with a single much LESS complete and inclusive figure. That is not even comparing apples with oranges. It is comparing apples with a few segments of a peeled orange.

pjohnson

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Voted yes to repeal the 8th , might have changed my mind if I knew it was going to become this free for all abortion on demand system that we werre promised it wouldnt be before the referendum.

It shouldnt be taxpayer funded. Allow private clinics to perform it for money and allow all the charities and people that popped up and had so much money for posters and jumpers to fund those who cannot afford an abortion.

Women should have the freedom to have an abortion, but it shouldnt cost me when they do.

:pac:

_Kaiser_

It was the right decision on polling day. It's the right decision now.

That said, there is a bit of a contradiction with the "her body, her choice" mantra in that if she decides to have an abortion, the potential father has no rights if he wanted the child and is expected to respect and live with that - yet conversely if she decides to keep it but he didn't want to be a father, he's still on the hook for maintenance for the next 18 years+.

The obvious response is "well stick a condom on then", but things do happen and if it was consensual unprotected sex at the time, it's a bit of an anomaly from a rights perspective.

Igotadose

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They are already pregnant for starters, generally not as a result of force. 9 months is also not a lifetime and the effects are generally not fatal. Pregnancy is now a safe event overall and abortion carries those same risks and it's own. Sorry, that argument holds no water.

Pregnancy and childbirth are very risky to health. Medical abortion in Ireland, barely any risk at all.

Your arguments don't hold water.

Igotadose

bfa1509 wrote: »

Should a father who wanted his girlfriend to have an abortion be forced to pay child support?

Yes, absolutely. He's the father. Whether he wanted the child or not, he is.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

cournioni wrote: »

All healthy unborn babies are “worth” saving. I was asked what my opinion was on when abortion should be “allowed”, whether you think my opinion is consistent or not doesn’t matter one bit. It’s as black and white as it can possibly be.

No it’s not.

Igotadose

cournioni wrote: »

Thanks.

I think it should be allowed where there is a medical issue where there is a threat to the health of the mother or child. Rape cases also. Outside of those, absolutely not.

What I feared the referendum vote would achieve would be that people could choose to end the life of a healthy unborn based on a purely selfish decision by parents and without due consideration for the unborn as the protections weren’t there to protect it. The statistics that have been released confirm those fears to be legitimate.

The statistics confirm nothing of the sort. At most, they confirm more abortions happened in 2019 than in 2018. Statistics don't confirm reasons, they're just numbers.

All that's confirmed is your CHOICE to interpret the statistics this way.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Voted yes to repeal the 8th , might have changed my mind if I knew it was going to become this free for all abortion on demand system that we werre promised it wouldnt be before the referendum.

It shouldnt be taxpayer funded. Allow private clinics to perform it for money and allow all the charities and people that popped up and had so much money for posters and jumpers to fund those who cannot afford an abortion.

Women should have the freedom to have an abortion, but it shouldnt cost me when they do.

We were promised no such thing. If you thought before the referendum that it wasn’t going to be unrestricted up to 12 weeks if repealed, then you didn’t pay very much attention at all.

Igotadose

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

We were promised no such thing. If you thought before the referendum that it wasn’t going to be unrestricted up to 12 weeks if repealed, then you didn’t pay very much attention at all.

It's not unrestricted. You need to go to a doctor, you need to wait 3 days, probably there are other restrictions I'm not thinking of. They might not be *severe* restrictions, but they're restrictions.

Unrestricted is, hitting a web site for ru486 pills home delivered, like you can do today.

Pherekydes

Manach wrote: »

I noticed that the pro-abortion bagdges & stickers were still being worn up till last year. The release of the figures shows the price of such virtue signalling. The irony that the left seem to have embraced a term that includes the term "lives matter" when clearly it is only certain lives that do to them.

Virtue signalling would involve "pro-lifers" saying they care deeply about women's lives, and then voting 'No'.

Yes, lives matter. Adult women's lives, not embryos.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Igotadose wrote: »

It's not unrestricted. You need to go to a doctor, you need to wait 3 days, probably there are other restrictions I'm not thinking of. They might not be *severe* restrictions, but they're restrictions.

Unrestricted is, hitting a web site for ru486 pills home delivered, like you can do today.

A three day wait isn’t a restriction, let’s be real here. And I should hope you have to go to a doctor. :eek: Is that what you consider a restriction? Calling either of those things restrictions is honestly disingenuous.

Igotadose

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

A three day wait isn’t a restriction, let’s be real here. And I should hope you have to go to a doctor. :eek: Is that what you consider a restriction? Calling either of those things restrictions is honestly disingenuous.

The ru486 pills are safe. No need to go to the doctor until afterwards, if at all. There's tonnes of information available about them.

The 3 day thing in the strictest sense of the word is a restriction. The woman wants the pills today, and is told for no good reason she must come back in 3 days and request again. What it is, is an attempt at dissuasion. I'm soon to e-mail my TD's asking them for data on the results of the 3 day waiting period, if any. My guess is there are no data, in which case, it should be removed. I've never seen a viable explanation for it, and the Netherlands was one country that had it and removed it as I recall because it accomplished nothing.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Manach wrote: »

I noticed that the pro-abortion bagdges & stickers were still being worn up till last year. The release of the figures shows the price of such virtue signalling. The irony that the left seem to have embraced a term that includes the term "lives matter" when clearly it is only certain lives that do to them.

Manach, what did the pro-abortion badges look like? I don’t recall any that said that.

Personally, I thought the figures would go up. I wanted teenagers and disadvantaged women who didn’t have access to abortion before to have it now, so yeah, that could indeed mean an increase. So I’d still gladly vote yes today, the figures being of no surprise to me. Of course, we also know that the figures before the referendum are unreliable too but people disingenuously don’t acknowledge that if it doesn’t suit them to.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

sabat wrote: »

An Irish woman died of sepsis giving birth on the Christmas Day after the referendum. Were there any murals and candlelit vigils for her? What happened to "Savita, never again?" Would any of the repeal campaign even know her name? Or care that she died?

Give us the details. What were the circumstances that caused her to develop sepsis? The circumstances are important, seeing as people develop sepsis for many different reasons. We know why Ms. Hallapanavar did.

cournioni wrote: »

I voted no and reading the statistics that only 144 out of the 6666 were for medical purposes is why that will remain as a no.

The gleeful celebrations following the result are stomach churning given those figures.

Do you think that the people celebrating thought all the abortions would be for medical reasons? People were celebrating because women would now be able to receive aftercare in their own jurisdiction without fear of prosecution. Seems like a good reason to celebrate to me.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

JL555 wrote: »

That's a bold statement. Since when should statistics not be in the interest of the citizens of a country?

If I had an abortion and I was asked by a statistician why I did, I wouldn’t furnish them with a reason. If a doctor asked if they could include my reasons in statistics, I wouldn’t consent to that (and yes, they would need to ask). So actually, no, it isn’t anyone else’s business unless the person choosing to get the abortion wants it to be. You are not entitled to that information.

cournioni

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do you think that the people celebrating thought all the abortions would be for medical reasons? People were celebrating because women would now be able to receive aftercare in their own jurisdiction without fear of prosecution. Seems like a good reason to celebrate to me.

Out of 6666 abortions 144 happened as there was a risk to child or woman.

6522 healthy unborn babies dying unnecessarily isn't something to celebrate, regardless of location.

sydthebeat

cournioni wrote: »

Out of 6666 abortions 144 happened as there was a risk to child or woman.

6522 healthy unborn babies dying unnecessarily isn't something to celebrate, regardless of location.

No unborn baby died?

drunkmonkey

sydthebeat wrote: »

No unborn baby died?

Of natural causes.

sydthebeat

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Of natural causes.

I think you might be in the wrong thread?

No one here is talking about babies dying, whether by natural or unnatural causes.

Mad_maxx

ELM327 wrote: »

Voted to repeal and would do so again, it's a womans body and as a man my only role is to facilitate whatever choice a woman wants to make.

" its a womans body "

you hear this kind of slogan all the time , its so shallow and unthinking

i voted NO , i dont identify as " pro life " , for me , its all down to whether or not the fetus - baby can feel pain during an abortion , if it can , im opposed under any circumstances bar if the mothers life is at risk

if the baby - fetus does not feel pain , i dont have a problem with it

the information available at the time of the vote didnt answer that question for me so i voted NO

i do find the " my body - my choice " ideology incredibly crass in its extreme individualism , even someone believes it , looks tacky on a t shirt

Mad_maxx

downinbigsmoke wrote: »

Sorry, I only mentioned that because it's Ireland's most liberal university.

NUIG would give it a run for its money

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

cournioni wrote: »

Out of 6666 abortions 144 happened as there was a risk to child or woman.

6522 healthy unborn babies dying unnecessarily isn't something to celebrate, regardless of location.

Well, the people celebrating were well aware that most of the abortions wouldn’t be medical (as it was clear what the legislation would be) and they celebrated even with that knowledge. So, for the people that celebrated, it WAS reason to celebrate?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

downinbigsmoke wrote: »

Modern contraception - especially if you use more than one method simultaneously - is nearly 100% safe. To me that's the best argument against abortion. Pretty much everybody who finds themselves parents had a choice and are only in that situation because they are negligent (or if they are teenagers, had negligent parents).

Nearly. Nearly. The key word there.

downinbigsmoke wrote: »

Condom + pill is a combination that essentially doesn't fail. If it does, it's a freak event like spontaneous combustion that can't really legislated for. The only reason that sexually active people get pregnant (or get them pregnant) is negligence. Anything else is a Catholic scare story designed to frighten you.

And yes. Choices have consequences. I know that people don't like to hear that, but it's true. There's a baby's life to contend with here now. You can't just kill it because you were negligent.

You can terminate a pregnancy up to 12 weeks in Ireland now. And before that, you could do so in the UK. Were you unaware of that?

SusieBlue

Mad_maxx wrote: »

" its a womans body "

you hear this kind of slogan all the time , its so shallow and unthinking

i voted NO , i dont identify as " pro life " , for me , its all down to whether or not the fetus - baby can feel pain during an abortion , if it can , im opposed under any circumstances bar if the mothers life is at risk

if the baby - fetus does not feel pain , i dont have a problem with it

the information available at the time of the vote didnt answer that question for me so i voted NO

i do find the " my body - my choice " ideology incredibly crass in its extreme individualism , even someone believes it , looks tacky on a t shirt

What about the pain felt by a pregnant woman? Is that not as important? Why should she have to feel any pain (if she doesn't want to) at the expense of a fetus?

Before 12 weeks a miscarriage or abortion is usually a very heavy period that is managed with over the counter pain relief at home. Uness there are complications, medical supervision/intervention are not usually required.

ELM327

Mad_maxx wrote: »

" its a womans body "

you hear this kind of slogan all the time , its so shallow and unthinking

i voted NO , i dont identify as " pro life " , for me , its all down to whether or not the fetus - baby can feel pain during an abortion , if it can , im opposed under any circumstances bar if the mothers life is at risk

if the baby - fetus does not feel pain , i dont have a problem with it

the information available at the time of the vote didnt answer that question for me so i voted NO

i do find the " my body - my choice " ideology incredibly crass in its extreme individualism , even someone believes it , looks tacky on a t shirt

What's the alternative?

If you don't allow the woman to terminate, you expect to enforce your views on her? What gives you that right?

cournioni

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, the people celebrating were well aware that most of the abortions wouldn’t be medical (as it was clear what the legislation would be) and they celebrated even with that knowledge. So, for the people that celebrated, it WAS reason to celebrate?

NFT.

keano_afc

I voted No, and nothing has changed in 2 years. Abortion is still an appalling act of violence against a human being. The figures dont shock me at all. Horrifically sad, but not surprising.

cournioni

ELM327 wrote: »

What's the alternative?

If you don't allow the woman to terminate, you expect to enforce your views on her? What gives you that right?

Whats your views on taking away a life outside of the womb with out the consent of the life being taken? Are people entitled to have those views?