The National Party

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138163#Comment_122138163

What part?

That socialism killed tens of millions of people? Seriously, don't be so bloody obtuse.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138169#Comment_122138169

Nothing but the usual pathetic defence of fascists. We're done here.

nachouser

Is this the socialism thread?? I thought it was the thread about the actual nazi lovers affiliated with The National Party?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138193#Comment_122138193

Defence of fascists?

Show where I've once defended fascists then...

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138248#Comment_122138248

I think it's more a case that you try to derail any thread about them and downplay the danger they pose. Instead it's the left that are the real problem.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138164#Comment_122138164

'Cherry picking the parts of Socialism that suits you' is not in itself a bad thing. Things like social housing, free healthcare, free education, water and sanitation, common use of roads and infrastructure, parks and lands to protection of human and civil rights. If you think that all Socialism leads to dicatorships and genocides you are wildly and fantastically wrong. In fact, it is the Socialists who continue to fight for these things that you take for granted when Capitalists see them as either barriers to trade or assets to be leveraged and sold.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138276#Comment_122138276

Exactly. The same thing happens any time the Nazis get criticised as surely as night follows day.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138142#Comment_122138142

You completely ignored my point. Socialism is fluffy, as I said in the post you’ve ignored. It’s a spectrum, it isn’t one United political philosophy.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138276#Comment_122138276

Nonsense.

I've been plenty critical of the National Party here.

The idea that one set of extremist beliefs trump another is frankly pathetic.

I despise far right and far left idiots equally, if you want to excuse one set of these wing nuts and vilify just one of them you're not an honest operator.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122137793#Comment_122137793

One of my beefs with Marx was his belief that a strong vanguard state was needed to implement a socialist system, which would then dissolve as it became unnecessary. No Karl, it isn't and it won't.

Well, that was Marx's "revolutionary period" necessity, as part of the transition to Socialism and then toward Communism. He believed that a period of controlled stability was a "necessary evil", but one which had to be closely observed by the proletariat, lest it turn into a ruling class of a slightly different flavour than the one it replaced. Unfortunately, it depends one whose hands are at the tiler as to whether they would allow the reins to, eventually, be handed over and to whom. Also, the proletariat in Russia was quite small, the largest being a subjected peasant class. So the required checks and balances from the workers, in Marxist thinking, rested on a relatively small amount of shoulders. That allows a nefarious political body to thrive.

I don't think Marx would have had huge problems with Lenin or Trotsky. Stalin would have horrified him no doubt. But Marx's hands aren't as clear as you describe, when it comes to the USSR.

Hmmm, having read quite a bit about the figures concerned, I wouldn't be so sure that Marx would have been all that fond of the Leninist view, while probably agreeing with where Lenin wanted Russia to eventually go. Trotsky would be a different matter, though, and he's a figure that I could imagine would share a lot of common ground with Marx. There's certainly a case to be made that Marx would have viewed the Bolshevik revolution as an interesting and welcome experiment, especially considering the awful state of affairs that preceded it and he would have been very welcoming of the end to the Tsarist rule in Russia. But I cannot see that warm reception lasting too long myself. Certainly if Marx had lived to see 1920/21 or a little bit beyond, I think he would have rejected the revolution altogether. But it isn't a clear cut thing, I'll grant you that.

But, as you say, once we get to Uncle Joe, there would have been no dithering about Marx's feelings on where it all went.

However, Marx and Russia are very uneasy bedfellows. Marx thought very little of Russia and considered it a backwards nation. He wouldn't have thought that a workers revolution would have been even possible there, because there was a lack of industrialisation and therefore a lack of a working class. Marx's idea of Socialist revolution was a workers revolt against the ruling classes and nobility. He never thought that Russia would have even been ready for such a thing, because it was a bottom heavy agricultural system. Remember, serfdom in Russia was only ended 20 years before Marx died. He also would have viewed Russia's revolution as a bit of an unnatural one, because it was born out of war with a foreign nation, Germany, and the conditions that Marx viewed as the "right" ones just weren't present. In other words, the October revolution has a lot of its roots in the fight against outside actors and not solely ones that were within.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138281#Comment_122138281

Are you proposing that all positive changes in society have been brought to us by socialism?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138599#Comment_122138599

I don’t disagree with any of that. I think Marx, and most socialist thinkers, expected a revolution in Germany or Britain before anywhere else. They both had massive industrial bases and consequently a huge urban proletariat. Russians population was largely rural and really wasn’t suitable for the the type of revolution Marx envisioned.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138608#Comment_122138608

I made you a list earlier, but you seem to be ignoring it.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138638#Comment_122138638

Lets take sick leave as an example, an idea that predates socialism yet you say socialism ushered it in.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138674#Comment_122138674

The idea might pre date socialism, which I don’t accept as fact, but it being codified in law certainly doesn’t. It’s the law because of the hard work of unions. Unions who were founded and lead by socialists. The notion of organised labour is socialist to begin with.

You seem to want to ignore the good things socialism has given you and focus on the extremes. Why?

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138608#Comment_122138608

No, but I will state that the benefits for society from collectivist thinking far outweigh those driven by profit.

nachouser

Left leaning = gulags, apparently.

At some point they'll complain that they can't possibly be expected to respond to all of the replies to the deflecting argument they've made. Ad finitum. Yawn.

nachouser

3. Opposition to Mass Immigration and a Commitment to Remigration

The National Party supports the ending of all mass immigration into Ireland. Further, we support a positive policy of remigration in order to secure Ireland as the homeland of the Irish people.

Central to this commitment to remigration is the Party’s focus on encouraging and incentivising the return of exiled members of the Irish nation, as well as primarily utilising the diaspora as a source for any potential labour shortfalls.

The National Party - discuss how this isn't the most crazy thing ever?

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138685#Comment_122138685

Deflection.

Easier than trying to big up the National Party and its "policies"

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138685#Comment_122138685

Not everyone in a union is a socialist. I spent years as part of a large union and fought for fair treatment of people I worked with.

Collective bargaining isn't the preserve of socialists. Not all of what goes on the within unions is amazing either.

I'm focusing on the extremes because this is a thread about extremes. Notions like "Jesus was a socialist" are just complete waffle.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138739#Comment_122138739

I didn’t say everyone in a union was socialist. I said they were founded by them.

You’re ignoring the fact you live in a social democracy to make some sort of point, that isn’t entirely clear.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138949#Comment_122138949

We do live in a democracy, the democratic process has been the first thing to be disposed of in all purely socialist regimes.

Having moderate left and right wing people in a democracy works, having a fully right or left wing regime ends in disaster every time. That's my point.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122138617#Comment_122138617

IIRC, it was France that Marx laid his bets on. But, yeah, Germany was also on the cards. The revolution that Germany got in reality, however, well…sure you know yourself. Again borne out of WWI.

There's a conflict that has a lot to answer for.

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136802#Comment_122136802

You see it a lot with those that actually support the likes of the national party etc stand for but won't come out and say so and go with the both sides routine.

Thing is they often slip up and are fairly fast to comment with speculation on threads about the young lady stabbed in Kerry back in March or stating that the reason for the knife attack in Sydney was probably because the area has a large Jewish community (also incorrect) and then not seen for dust when details of the attacker come out.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122139135#Comment_122139135

we live in a social democracy. Socialism has heavily influenced society, for the good. You want to keep talking about extremes.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122139212#Comment_122139212

it was France? I was sure it was Germany and Britain, but it’s been a long time since I read anything by Marx.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122139332#Comment_122139332

Only the extreme left of course.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122139397#Comment_122139397

Yeah, but to some people, that's everything from center-right to complete Anarchy.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122139332#Comment_122139332

Just for the sake of accuracy, Ireland has never been a social democracy, we fit into the liberal democratic model, so whatever point you're attempting to make, has no basis in fact.

nachouser

What is your take on the thread? The Nationalist Party? The point of the thread. Good or bad? Will you be voting for them?

Everything else is just bluster and deflection.