Why is Ireland lagging behind the world in cannabis legalisation / decriminalisation?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Recreational cannabis should be fully decriminalised and made available to any adult over 18 like the Netherlands and the vintners should have zero say in it.

Cannabis is no more a "gateway" drug than booze is. Besides, cannabis gives a different "high" than cocaine, benzos etc. So the "gateway" argument is bullshit.

The Netherlands is no more or less functional as a society than we are and regulating the source of it will remove the criminality.

A good chunk of the world and even certain US states have either opted for partial decriminalisation or full legalisation. The fact that a young lad or girl can end up with a lifelong conviction for smoking a joint is despicable.

Alcohol caused far more societal problems. People don't eject from coffeeshops beating each other up, vandalising property and assaulting their husbands and wives.

Cannabis legalisation would decimate alcohol industry.

is_that_so

Supposedly lagging behind The Netherlands is not lagging behind the world.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Decriminalisation only

is_that_so wrote: »

Supposedly lagging behind The Netherlands is not lagging behind the world.

Read my post like a good kid.

I gave NL as one specific example. The US, Canada and Portugal and other jurisdictions also meet the description.

GarIT

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Read my post like a good kid.

I gave NL as one specific example. The US, Canada and Portugal also meet the description.

Behind 4 of 200+ is not lagging behind.

TuringBot47

And how many doped out potheads are a positive influence on society?
Does it help them to work and contribute to society, or does it just mean they can be lazy nobodies drugged out on their sofa?

Of course it's a gateway drug.
They get their weed from drug dealers, you don't think they try upselling?

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.
I still remember the roars of his mother as his body was brought into their sitting room before the funeral.

These days, alcohol would be considered a drug and banned. But too ingrained in society.

Decriminalising drugs only helps the useless losers that use them, certainly does absolutely no good for the decent people who contribute to society.

GarIT

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And how many doped out potheads are a positive influence on society?
Does it help them to work and contribute to society, or does it just mean they can be lazy nobodies drugged out on their sofa?

Of course it's a gateway drug.
They get their weed from drug dealers, you don't think they try upselling?

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.
I still remember the roars of his mother as his body was brought into their sitting room before the funeral.

These days, alcohol would be considered a drug and banned. But too ingrained in society.

Decriminalising drugs only helps the useless losers that use them, certainly does absolutely no good for the decent people who contribute to society.

If they were getting their weed in Tesco they wouldn't need to go to drug dealers.

Portugal decriminalised and has some of the lowest usage and best attitude to drugs in the world. Treating drug use as a medical issue and not a criminal one has proven to be more effective in lowering drug use and improving public safety.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Decriminalisation only

GarIT wrote: »

Behind 4 of 200+ is not lagging behind.

Countries in blue have opted for full legalisation.

Countries in orange have opted for decriminalisation (including NL).

There's a lot more than 4.

Stark

Decriminalisation only

No interest in it personally but it's been legalised/decriminalised in most places in the US and the sky hasn't fallen in there. (Well the sky has fallen for other reasons but not the cannabis).

Notmything

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Cannabis is no more a "gateway" drug than booze is. Besides, cannabis gives a different "high" than cocaine, benzos etc. So the "gateway" argument is bull

I've worked with far too many young people, and adults who started out on weed/cannabis and ended up going onto harder drugs to accept the above. Not everyone who uses cannabis will, that's true, but there is no way it is not a gateway drug for many.

But it's like alcohol, some people can regularly partake with no issues while others end up in a bad way because of their habit/addiction.

Decriminalise no, but maybe look at alternative ways of dealing with people caught with small amounts.

is_that_so

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Read my post like a good kid.

I gave NL as one specific example. The US, Canada and Portugal and other jurisdictions also meet the description.

So the world has now grown to 4 countries! You seem much given to hyperbole!

talla10

GarIT wrote: »

If they were getting their weed in Tesco they wouldn't need to go to drug dealers.

.

Tesco sell cigerettes. How many are still imported illegally to avoid paying custom and tax charges?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Decriminalisation only

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And how many doped out potheads are a positive influence on society?
Does it help them to work and contribute to society, or does it just mean they can be lazy nobodies drugged out on their sofa?

Of course it's a gateway drug.
They get their weed from drug dealers, you don't think they try upselling?

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.
I still remember the roars of his mother as his body was brought into their sitting room before the funeral.

These days, alcohol would be considered a drug and banned. But too ingrained in society.

Decriminalising drugs only helps the useless losers that use them, certainly does absolutely no good for the decent people who contribute to society.

If it was legal you wouldn't be "sourcing it from a drug dealer trying to upsell".

"Potheads" are no more a societal scourge than alcoholics, of which there are many here.

Stark

Decriminalisation only

Notmything wrote: »

I've worked with far too many young people, and adults who started out on weed/cannabis and ended up going onto harder drugs to accept the above. Not everyone who uses cannabis will, that's true, but there is no way it is not a gateway drug for many.

How much of this is due to having to make contacts with dodgy people who also happen to sell harder drugs in order to avail of it.

Alcohol and cigarettes would probably be "gateway drugs" also if you had to go to a dodgy dealer to buy some as opposed to buying from legitimate regulated premises.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Decriminalisation only

is_that_so wrote: »

So the world has now grown to 4 countries! You seem much given to hyperbole!

I said AND OTHER COUNTRIES TOO.

Read before posting.... Christ.

Dr Bob

Vintners association have a fair bit of pull politically , and anything that might negatively effect pubs tends to be pushed down.

Flickerfusion

Decriminalisation only

Is it not a gateway drug precisely *BECAUSE* it's criminalised and thus introduces people to dealers who may then introduce them to harder drugs?

I mean imagine if the only way you could get alcohol was to buy it from a drug dealer? Then alcohol would be a gateway to heroin too.

Badly Drunk Boy

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Read my post like a good kid.

I gave NL as one specific example. The US, Canada and Portugal and other jurisdictions also meet the description.

Look at you map you put up yourself. Most of the world is red, meaning it's illegal there. I'm not bothered either way, just wanted to point out that your post is flawed.

GarIT

talla10 wrote: »

Tesco sell cigerettes. How many are still imported illegally to avoid paying custom and tax charges?

What % is sold illegally, even if 10% were sold illegally its still brings 90% off the streets instead of 0%. And the reason I said that in the first place is that someone said interesting with dealers gets people onto harder drugs, if that's the case any reduction in interacting with dealers is positive.

GarIT

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I said AND OTHER COUNTRIES TOO.

Read before posting.... Christ.

While I support legalising your arguments for it has been absolute ****e tbh

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Decriminalisation only

GarIT wrote: »

While I support legalising your arguments for it has been absolute ****e tbh

Which specific aspects of my argument, pray tell.

Church on Tuesday

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Recreational cannabis should be fully decriminalised and made available to any adult over 18 like the Netherlands and the vintners should have zero say in it.

Cannabis is no more a "gateway" drug than booze is. Besides, cannabis gives a different "high" than cocaine, benzos etc. So the "gateway" argument is bullshit.

The Netherlands is no more or less functional as a society than we are and regulating the source of it will remove the criminality.

A good chunk of the world and even certain US states have either opted for partial decriminalisation or full legalisation. The fact that a young lad or girl can end up with a lifelong conviction for smoking a joint is despicable.

Alcohol caused far more societal problems. People don't eject from coffeeshops beating each other up, vandalising property and assaulting their husbands and wives.

Cannabis legalisation would decimate alcohol industry.

It absolutely is.

Smells like **** too.

TuringBot47

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

"Potheads" are no more a societal scourge than alcoholics, of which there are many here.

Trying to say "we're no worse than X" really isn't arguing your case.
What positive influence do they have?

In fact, your thinking must be so blurred, I'll actually argue on your side a little.
There appears to be a lot of positive medicinal benefits of cannabis derived drugs, to certainly open it up to limited specific medical applications.

But doesn't mean it should be sold uncontrolled like cigarettes.

Lyan

Decriminalisation only

I am for legalizing it, but can we just agree thgat those who use it are for the most part useless people who are often predisposed to using escapism and stimulant drugs in general (including alcohol)?

Your Face

Familiar posting style.

jaxxx

Let idiots be idiots, but don't waste resources trying to save said idiots from their own idiocy.

That make sense?

I think it makes sense.

Let good old fashioned Darwinism work its magic.

Notmything

Stark wrote: »

How much of this is due to having to make contacts with dodgy people who also happen to sell harder drugs in order to avail of it.

Alcohol and cigarettes would probably be "gateway drugs" also if you had to go to a dodgy dealer to buy some as opposed to buying from legitimate regulated premises.

It's often a multi factorial issue. Some go onto harder drugs because they are chasing a new or better high. Some are offered drugs by dealers. Some go on to harder drugs because it's what they see happen in their family.

You might be shocked at how many end up on drugs from peer pressure within their family.

But whether they buy it from a dealer, off their brother or from a legalised source it is still going to be a gateway drug for some to move onto harder stuff.

Alcohol is legal and regulated but that doesn't mean people are happy to drink lager or ale, how many move onto shots on a night out or drink a bottle of spirits so they can get the buzz quickly?

Notmything

Flickerfusion wrote: »

Is it not a gateway drug precisely *BECAUSE* it's criminalised and thus introduces people to dealers who may then introduce them to harder drugs?

I mean imagine if the only way you could get alcohol was to buy it from a drug dealer? Then alcohol would be a gateway to heroin too.

Is it not a "gateway" drug because often it leads to trying other, harder drugs. Even if it was decriminalised it would still result in people wanting to try other drugs.

Hoboo

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And how many doped out potheads are a positive influence on society?
Does it help them to work and contribute to society, or does it just mean they can be lazy nobodies drugged out on their sofa?

Of course it's a gateway drug.
They get their weed from drug dealers, you don't think they try upselling?

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.
I still remember the roars of his mother as his body was brought into their sitting room before the funeral.

These days, alcohol would be considered a drug and banned. But too ingrained in society.

Decriminalising drugs only helps the useless losers that use them, certainly does absolutely no good for the decent people who contribute to society.

That's awful. What did he die of?

Hoboo

Notmything wrote: »

Is it not a "gateway" drug because often it leads to trying other, harder drugs. Even if it was decriminalised it would still result in people wanting to try other drugs.

So alcohol is therefore a gateway drug.

JohnnyFlash

It’s a dirty and dangerous drug that is causing a huge spike in young men presenting at psychiatric facilities with life-changing cases of psychosis.

Notmything

Hoboo wrote: »

So alcohol is therefore a gateway drug.

Yep, in my professional experience it is. Never argued it wasn't.

Sarcozies

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It’s a dirty and dangerous drug that is causing a huge spike in young men presenting at psychiatric facilities with life-changing cases of psychosis.

Do you have any data that I could read about this? By young men do you mean Over 18 (legal) or under 18 (illegal)?

Signore Fancy Pants

Dope is for Dopes.

corner of hells

Sarcozies wrote: »

Do you have any data that I could read about this? By young men do you mean Over 18 (legal) or under 18 (illegal)?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/cannabis-related-admissions-to-psychiatric-hospitals-rose-185-in-eight-years-1.4051671%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjlr9SvkZPqAhWjSxUIHQkyDjcQFjACegQIBxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3oIHzyj4vjUyYQh0k8eA_D&ampcf=1

Bobby Smith is pretty well known in the treatment of adolescent drug users in Ireland.

Sarcozies

corner of hells wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/cannabis-related-admissions-to-psychiatric-hospitals-rose-185-in-eight-years-1.4051671%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjlr9SvkZPqAhWjSxUIHQkyDjcQFjACegQIBxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3oIHzyj4vjUyYQh0k8eA_D&ampcf=1

Bobby Smith is pretty well known in the treatment of adolescent drug users in Ireland.

Seems like a good read but I'd love the actual paper. I hate seeing only percentages given and not the numbers. They also use adolescents in the study and don't say under or over 18 which when the discussion is about legalisation for adults is not helpful.

Flickerfusion

Decriminalisation only

corner of hells wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/cannabis-related-admissions-to-psychiatric-hospitals-rose-185-in-eight-years-1.4051671%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjlr9SvkZPqAhWjSxUIHQkyDjcQFjACegQIBxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3oIHzyj4vjUyYQh0k8eA_D&ampcf=1

Bobby Smith is pretty well known in the treatment of adolescent drug users in Ireland.

Alcohol is probably responsible for a huge % of our physical injuries at emergency departments. It's linked to psychosis and even brain damage. It's also a direct cause of liver disease, various cancers etc.

So, following your logic, complete prohibition would be the only conclusion, but that's socially unacceptable, unimplementable (see USA) and probably an extreme overreaction.

There are some human behaviours you are simply not able to ban because people will do them anyway. Attempting to make them safer and more regulated tends to reduce social impact.

You've also got economic and social cost-benefit analysis:

How much does enforcement of strict anti cannabis law cost?

1) Policing.
2) Court costs.
3) Prison costs.
4) Social and economic impact on those prosecuted - long term loss of employment opportunities etc.

vs the benefits that are not really being very well measured. Lumping them into the same category as the social impacts of hard drugs with extreme psychological and metal impacts like heroin etc is somewhat pointless and absolutist.

It's one of those areas where you have a lot of shades of grey.

Arrival

Decriminalisation only

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And how many doped out potheads are a positive influence on society?
Does it help them to work and contribute to society, or does it just mean they can be lazy nobodies drugged out on their sofa?

Of course it's a gateway drug.
They get their weed from drug dealers, you don't think they try upselling?

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.
I still remember the roars of his mother as his body was brought into their sitting room before the funeral.

These days, alcohol would be considered a drug and banned. But too ingrained in society.

Decriminalising drugs only helps the useless losers that use them, certainly does absolutely no good for the decent people who contribute to society.

This type of moral grandstanding instantly shows how ignorant and unaware someone is about the actual reality of drug consumption in our society these days. You don't use recreational drugs, well done, fair play to you, but loads of objectively successful and hard working people do. You're not better or worse than someone for choosing to consume drugs or choosing not to do drugs. All drugs are are mind altering substances, humans have experimented with these things for as long as we've existed. The blatantly obvious issue which you're conflating drug use with is antisocial, undesirable losers. Yes, these are ****ty people and none of us like them, but just because they happen to consume drugs does not mean all drug consumers are ****ty people. Go to any upscale club these days and try going to the toilet and you'll see people from all walks of life enjoy letting loose in this regard. Even our Taoiseach has experimented with drugs in his younger days, is he a loser in your eyes also just because he consumed certain things with his own body which caused no harm to you or anyone else?

ladystardust

Lyan wrote: »

I am for legalizing it, but can we just agree thgat those who use it are for the most part useless people who are often predisposed to using escapism and stimulant drugs in general (including alcohol)?

I dont agree with this. Maybe it's just my age bracket but I know a large amount of working professionals, who partake of a weekend. Like having a glass of wine.

Arrival

Decriminalisation only

talla10 wrote: »

Tesco sell cigerettes. How many are still imported illegally to avoid paying custom and tax charges?

If you look at the incidents of black market tobacco/cigarettes being seized/available, they're definitely gone up over the years as they became more and more expensive with the increased taxes

_Kaiser_

These threads always follow the same pattern.

"Why isn't cannabis legal?. It is is x,y,z country! Why not here?"
When asked to provide any positive benefits this would offer to society, this notion of it'll kill the illegal drug trade is trotted out and whataboutery about alcohol.

But let's say that's true. What do you think those criminal elements are going to do if their trade is legalised? Push harder drugs? Maybe get into other things like robbing houses? Mugging people? Worse?

Also check out the Garda Twitter feed which is already rife with stops for drug driving. You can be damn sure that'll increase if it's legalised, because unless drunk driving (which is rightfully considered as not on by most), cannabis still has this "it's harmless" notion attached to it. I certainly can't see any benefits of encouraging more stoned people on the road?

I'd probably reduce some of the penalties for individual possession, and ramp them up for things like drug driving.. but I certainly wouldn't make it legal just coz it's a trendy liberal cause. Other than questionable personal "benefits" for those using it, I can't see what good it does anyone around them.

Are there any? Honest question.

Sarcozies

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

These threads always follow the same pattern.

"Why isn't cannabis legal?. It is is x,y,z country! Why not here?"
When asked to provide any positive benefits this would offer to society, this notion of it'll kill the illegal drug trade is trotted out and whataboutery about alcohol.

But let's say that's true. What do you think those criminal elements are going to do if their trade is legalised? Push harder drugs? Maybe get into other things like robbing houses? Mugging people? Worse?

Also check out the Garda Twitter feed which is already rife with stops for drug driving. You can be damn sure that'll increase if it's legalised, because unless drunk driving (which is rightfully considered as not on by most), cannabis still has this "it's harmless" notion attached to it. I certainly can't see any benefits of encouraging more stoned people on the road?

I'd probably reduce some of the penalties for individual possession, and ramp them up for things like drug driving.. but I certainly wouldn't make it legal just coz it's a trendy liberal cause. Other than questionable personal "benefits" for those using it, I can't see what good it does anyone around them.

Are there any? Honest question.

I think you should also be asking what the Guards are gonna do if their easy fines and court appearances disappear once it's legalised.

Also, isn't THC in your system long after it's effects have worn off? Unlike alcohol.

Lyan

Decriminalisation only

ladystardust wrote: »

I dont agree with this. Maybe it's just my age bracket but I know a large amount of working professionals, who partake of a weekend. Like having a glass of wine.

What do you mean by "working professional" and on how regular a basis do they partake? I am Doubting they fit into "most".

ladystardust

Lyan wrote: »

What do you mean by "working professional" and on how regular a basis do they partake? I am Doubting they fit into "most".

Maybe not. I mean working professionals who are in managerial roles. Working in health service. Working in skilled jobs. Educated, productive people. And would partake a good bit, usually instead of drinking. Probably wouldnt fall into the 'most' category. But your point was surely to imply that generally wasters and non productive members of society are the ones using it.... or maybe that's what makes them useless ?

ShatterAlan

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Read my post like a good kid.

I gave NL as one specific example. The US, Canada and Portugal and other jurisdictions also meet the description.

Ireland isn't lagging behind "the world" like your thread title suggests. Marijuana is only fully legal in 4 countries, Uruguay, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa.


It is illegal but decriminalized in Australia, US most of South America and a handful of european countries, Italy, Portugal, Holland, Czech republic and Estonia.



It's pretty much full-blown illegal in pretty much every country in Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Western Europe and Eastern Europe.


But I do agree with you it should be deciminalized in Ireland as well. Fcuk the vintners. I never touch the stuff myself but I don't see the harm in legalising it. It's just a fcuking shrub that gets you all rubberheaded. So what.


Smoke away, I say.

global23214124

I guess people have bigger fish to try at the moment. It's not top of peoples mind to get legislation through or campaign for it.

Arrival

Decriminalisation only

ladystardust wrote: »

Maybe not. I mean working professionals who are in managerial roles. Working in health service. Working in skilled jobs. Educated, productive people. And would partake a good bit, usually instead of drinking. Probably wouldnt fall into the 'most' category. But your point was surely to imply that generally wasters and non productive members of society are the ones using it.... or maybe that's what makes them useless ?

Can confirm this experience, know plenty of people who work great jobs and have well established careers, successful and intelligent and genuinely good, decent people. They happen to enjoy doing some MDMA, LSD, shrooms, coke etc occasionally because for them, like many drug users, drugs are something they occasionally use to enhance their lives rather than something they use to escape them. People still under the illusion that only scumbags and wasters do drugs have to be elderly, ignorant people or social outcasts. For this reason, treating the issue of drugs and their usage as a moral one is ridiculous and only done by fools.

I'd argue that MDMA and shrooms, also LSD for some, have the potential to even make people better people also. They help people think very introspectively about all kinds of things which people wouldn't consider while sober, they eliminate barriers for connecting with and opening up to other people, make you more considerate. The psilocybin in shrooms is even being trialled for helping people with depression, through therapy, and similar with MDMA for PTSD patients. Ketamine is also already actually being used for helping people with bad depression. People need to toss aside their bull**** moral pearl clutching and be more open minded to what these things can have to offer. Sadly the insular, strict Catholic mindset has too strong a grip on many people in this country for the independent critical thinking to be common place on issues like this. More people do drugs recreationally than people realise, but they keep it quiet because of the harsh judgement from the judgemental people we're plagued with

redarmyblues

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It’s a dirty and dangerous drug that is causing a huge spike in young men presenting at psychiatric facilities with life-changing cases of psychosis.

Do you have a link to data for that.

I Am Nobody

Decriminalisation only

If Ireland legalized cannibals,regardless of what the EU thought.And had appropriate taxes for it.then we would have enough revenue to invest in education and mental health facilities.

corner of hells

Sarcozies wrote: »

I think you should also be asking what the Guards are gonna do if their easy fines and court appearances disappear once it's legalised.

Also, isn't THC in your system long after it's effects have worn off? Unlike alcohol.

Continue with other duties and I'd imagine the average would be delighted if he didn't have to go to court dealing with half wits who haven't got the cop on to be discrete with thier drug use.

tommyombomb

Decriminalisation only

Honestly i dont have an opinion either way, would prefer government to make tax money on it rather than criminals. Also know lots of people who use it who are successful. Wasters who use it were wasters beforehand. There is a direct correlation with opiod reduction in states where legalized in America.

Anyone who thinks its a gateway drug know nothing, even some people who claim to work with people in this thread. Never seen anyone take coke, pills etc after smoking or sober. Only use it in combination with alcohol. Shocked how backwards the people online are.

Too many people still believe media and information from years ago. Read up, watch documentaries and re-educate yourself before posting or having an opinion on something you think you know about.

Also gateway argument is because people buy it from illegal sources who want to upsell. Personally feel every person who ends up on harder drugs when upsold is due to the failing of the state.

Imagine if money spent arresting people and imprisoning people for weed went to mental health and education?

Austria!

TuringBot47 wrote: »

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.

It's not really clear what role cannabis played in his death, but regardless didn't this happen in Ireland where drugs are illegal? Is it that you think it would happen more if it was legalised?