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Why is Ireland lagging behind the world in cannabis legalisation / decriminalisation?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Recreational cannabis should be fully decriminalised and made available to any adult over 18 like the Netherlands and the vintners should have zero say in it.

Cannabis is no more a "gateway" drug than booze is. Besides, cannabis gives a different "high" than cocaine, benzos etc. So the "gateway" argument is bullshit.

The Netherlands is no more or less functional as a society than we are and regulating the source of it will remove the criminality.

A good chunk of the world and even certain US states have either opted for partial decriminalisation or full legalisation. The fact that a young lad or girl can end up with a lifelong conviction for smoking a joint is despicable.

Alcohol caused far more societal problems. People don't eject from coffeeshops beating each other up, vandalising property and assaulting their husbands and wives.

Cannabis legalisation would decimate alcohol industry.

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Sarcozies

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It’s a dirty and dangerous drug that is causing a huge spike in young men presenting at psychiatric facilities with life-changing cases of psychosis.

Do you have any data that I could read about this? By young men do you mean Over 18 (legal) or under 18 (illegal)?

Signore Fancy Pants

Dope is for Dopes.

corner of hells

Sarcozies wrote: »

Do you have any data that I could read about this? By young men do you mean Over 18 (legal) or under 18 (illegal)?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/cannabis-related-admissions-to-psychiatric-hospitals-rose-185-in-eight-years-1.4051671%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjlr9SvkZPqAhWjSxUIHQkyDjcQFjACegQIBxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3oIHzyj4vjUyYQh0k8eA_D&ampcf=1

Bobby Smith is pretty well known in the treatment of adolescent drug users in Ireland.

Sarcozies

corner of hells wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/cannabis-related-admissions-to-psychiatric-hospitals-rose-185-in-eight-years-1.4051671%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjlr9SvkZPqAhWjSxUIHQkyDjcQFjACegQIBxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3oIHzyj4vjUyYQh0k8eA_D&ampcf=1

Bobby Smith is pretty well known in the treatment of adolescent drug users in Ireland.

Seems like a good read but I'd love the actual paper. I hate seeing only percentages given and not the numbers. They also use adolescents in the study and don't say under or over 18 which when the discussion is about legalisation for adults is not helpful.

Flickerfusion

corner of hells wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/cannabis-related-admissions-to-psychiatric-hospitals-rose-185-in-eight-years-1.4051671%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwjlr9SvkZPqAhWjSxUIHQkyDjcQFjACegQIBxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3oIHzyj4vjUyYQh0k8eA_D&ampcf=1

Bobby Smith is pretty well known in the treatment of adolescent drug users in Ireland.

Alcohol is probably responsible for a huge % of our physical injuries at emergency departments. It's linked to psychosis and even brain damage. It's also a direct cause of liver disease, various cancers etc.

So, following your logic, complete prohibition would be the only conclusion, but that's socially unacceptable, unimplementable (see USA) and probably an extreme overreaction.

There are some human behaviours you are simply not able to ban because people will do them anyway. Attempting to make them safer and more regulated tends to reduce social impact.

You've also got economic and social cost-benefit analysis:

How much does enforcement of strict anti cannabis law cost?

1) Policing.
2) Court costs.
3) Prison costs.
4) Social and economic impact on those prosecuted - long term loss of employment opportunities etc.

vs the benefits that are not really being very well measured. Lumping them into the same category as the social impacts of hard drugs with extreme psychological and metal impacts like heroin etc is somewhat pointless and absolutist.

It's one of those areas where you have a lot of shades of grey.

Arrival

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And how many doped out potheads are a positive influence on society?
Does it help them to work and contribute to society, or does it just mean they can be lazy nobodies drugged out on their sofa?

Of course it's a gateway drug.
They get their weed from drug dealers, you don't think they try upselling?

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.
I still remember the roars of his mother as his body was brought into their sitting room before the funeral.

These days, alcohol would be considered a drug and banned. But too ingrained in society.

Decriminalising drugs only helps the useless losers that use them, certainly does absolutely no good for the decent people who contribute to society.

This type of moral grandstanding instantly shows how ignorant and unaware someone is about the actual reality of drug consumption in our society these days. You don't use recreational drugs, well done, fair play to you, but loads of objectively successful and hard working people do. You're not better or worse than someone for choosing to consume drugs or choosing not to do drugs. All drugs are are mind altering substances, humans have experimented with these things for as long as we've existed. The blatantly obvious issue which you're conflating drug use with is antisocial, undesirable losers. Yes, these are ****ty people and none of us like them, but just because they happen to consume drugs does not mean all drug consumers are ****ty people. Go to any upscale club these days and try going to the toilet and you'll see people from all walks of life enjoy letting loose in this regard. Even our Taoiseach has experimented with drugs in his younger days, is he a loser in your eyes also just because he consumed certain things with his own body which caused no harm to you or anyone else?

ladystardust

Lyan wrote: »

I am for legalizing it, but can we just agree thgat those who use it are for the most part useless people who are often predisposed to using escapism and stimulant drugs in general (including alcohol)?

I dont agree with this. Maybe it's just my age bracket but I know a large amount of working professionals, who partake of a weekend. Like having a glass of wine.

Arrival

talla10 wrote: »

Tesco sell cigerettes. How many are still imported illegally to avoid paying custom and tax charges?

If you look at the incidents of black market tobacco/cigarettes being seized/available, they're definitely gone up over the years as they became more and more expensive with the increased taxes

_Kaiser_

These threads always follow the same pattern.

"Why isn't cannabis legal?. It is is x,y,z country! Why not here?"
When asked to provide any positive benefits this would offer to society, this notion of it'll kill the illegal drug trade is trotted out and whataboutery about alcohol.

But let's say that's true. What do you think those criminal elements are going to do if their trade is legalised? Push harder drugs? Maybe get into other things like robbing houses? Mugging people? Worse?

Also check out the Garda Twitter feed which is already rife with stops for drug driving. You can be damn sure that'll increase if it's legalised, because unless drunk driving (which is rightfully considered as not on by most), cannabis still has this "it's harmless" notion attached to it. I certainly can't see any benefits of encouraging more stoned people on the road?

I'd probably reduce some of the penalties for individual possession, and ramp them up for things like drug driving.. but I certainly wouldn't make it legal just coz it's a trendy liberal cause. Other than questionable personal "benefits" for those using it, I can't see what good it does anyone around them.

Are there any? Honest question.

Sarcozies

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

These threads always follow the same pattern.

"Why isn't cannabis legal?. It is is x,y,z country! Why not here?"
When asked to provide any positive benefits this would offer to society, this notion of it'll kill the illegal drug trade is trotted out and whataboutery about alcohol.

But let's say that's true. What do you think those criminal elements are going to do if their trade is legalised? Push harder drugs? Maybe get into other things like robbing houses? Mugging people? Worse?

Also check out the Garda Twitter feed which is already rife with stops for drug driving. You can be damn sure that'll increase if it's legalised, because unless drunk driving (which is rightfully considered as not on by most), cannabis still has this "it's harmless" notion attached to it. I certainly can't see any benefits of encouraging more stoned people on the road?

I'd probably reduce some of the penalties for individual possession, and ramp them up for things like drug driving.. but I certainly wouldn't make it legal just coz it's a trendy liberal cause. Other than questionable personal "benefits" for those using it, I can't see what good it does anyone around them.

Are there any? Honest question.

I think you should also be asking what the Guards are gonna do if their easy fines and court appearances disappear once it's legalised.

Also, isn't THC in your system long after it's effects have worn off? Unlike alcohol.

Lyan

ladystardust wrote: »

I dont agree with this. Maybe it's just my age bracket but I know a large amount of working professionals, who partake of a weekend. Like having a glass of wine.

What do you mean by "working professional" and on how regular a basis do they partake? I am Doubting they fit into "most".

ladystardust

Lyan wrote: »

What do you mean by "working professional" and on how regular a basis do they partake? I am Doubting they fit into "most".

Maybe not. I mean working professionals who are in managerial roles. Working in health service. Working in skilled jobs. Educated, productive people. And would partake a good bit, usually instead of drinking. Probably wouldnt fall into the 'most' category. But your point was surely to imply that generally wasters and non productive members of society are the ones using it.... or maybe that's what makes them useless ?

ShatterAlan

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Read my post like a good kid.

I gave NL as one specific example. The US, Canada and Portugal and other jurisdictions also meet the description.

Ireland isn't lagging behind "the world" like your thread title suggests. Marijuana is only fully legal in 4 countries, Uruguay, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa.

It is illegal but decriminalized in Australia, US most of South America and a handful of european countries, Italy, Portugal, Holland, Czech republic and Estonia.

It's pretty much full-blown illegal in pretty much every country in Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Western Europe and Eastern Europe.

But I do agree with you it should be deciminalized in Ireland as well. Fcuk the vintners. I never touch the stuff myself but I don't see the harm in legalising it. It's just a fcuking shrub that gets you all rubberheaded. So what.

Smoke away, I say.

global23214124

I guess people have bigger fish to try at the moment. It's not top of peoples mind to get legislation through or campaign for it.

Arrival

ladystardust wrote: »

Maybe not. I mean working professionals who are in managerial roles. Working in health service. Working in skilled jobs. Educated, productive people. And would partake a good bit, usually instead of drinking. Probably wouldnt fall into the 'most' category. But your point was surely to imply that generally wasters and non productive members of society are the ones using it.... or maybe that's what makes them useless ?

Can confirm this experience, know plenty of people who work great jobs and have well established careers, successful and intelligent and genuinely good, decent people. They happen to enjoy doing some MDMA, LSD, shrooms, coke etc occasionally because for them, like many drug users, drugs are something they occasionally use to enhance their lives rather than something they use to escape them. People still under the illusion that only scumbags and wasters do drugs have to be elderly, ignorant people or social outcasts. For this reason, treating the issue of drugs and their usage as a moral one is ridiculous and only done by fools.

I'd argue that MDMA and shrooms, also LSD for some, have the potential to even make people better people also. They help people think very introspectively about all kinds of things which people wouldn't consider while sober, they eliminate barriers for connecting with and opening up to other people, make you more considerate. The psilocybin in shrooms is even being trialled for helping people with depression, through therapy, and similar with MDMA for PTSD patients. Ketamine is also already actually being used for helping people with bad depression. People need to toss aside their bull**** moral pearl clutching and be more open minded to what these things can have to offer. Sadly the insular, strict Catholic mindset has too strong a grip on many people in this country for the independent critical thinking to be common place on issues like this. More people do drugs recreationally than people realise, but they keep it quiet because of the harsh judgement from the judgemental people we're plagued with

redarmyblues

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It’s a dirty and dangerous drug that is causing a huge spike in young men presenting at psychiatric facilities with life-changing cases of psychosis.

Do you have a link to data for that.

I Am Nobody

If Ireland legalized cannibals,regardless of what the EU thought.And had appropriate taxes for it.then we would have enough revenue to invest in education and mental health facilities.

corner of hells

Sarcozies wrote: »

I think you should also be asking what the Guards are gonna do if their easy fines and court appearances disappear once it's legalised.

Also, isn't THC in your system long after it's effects have worn off? Unlike alcohol.

Continue with other duties and I'd imagine the average would be delighted if he didn't have to go to court dealing with half wits who haven't got the cop on to be discrete with thier drug use.

tommyombomb

Honestly i dont have an opinion either way, would prefer government to make tax money on it rather than criminals. Also know lots of people who use it who are successful. Wasters who use it were wasters beforehand. There is a direct correlation with opiod reduction in states where legalized in America.

Anyone who thinks its a gateway drug know nothing, even some people who claim to work with people in this thread. Never seen anyone take coke, pills etc after smoking or sober. Only use it in combination with alcohol. Shocked how backwards the people online are.

Too many people still believe media and information from years ago. Read up, watch documentaries and re-educate yourself before posting or having an opinion on something you think you know about.

Also gateway argument is because people buy it from illegal sources who want to upsell. Personally feel every person who ends up on harder drugs when upsold is due to the failing of the state.

Imagine if money spent arresting people and imprisoning people for weed went to mental health and education?

Austria!

TuringBot47 wrote: »

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.

It's not really clear what role cannabis played in his death, but regardless didn't this happen in Ireland where drugs are illegal? Is it that you think it would happen more if it was legalised?

Church on Tuesday

ladystardust wrote: »

Maybe not. I mean working professionals who are in managerial roles. Working in health service. Working in skilled jobs. Educated, productive people. And would partake a good bit, usually instead of drinking. Probably wouldnt fall into the 'most' category. But your point was surely to imply that generally wasters and non productive members of society are the ones using it.... or maybe that's what makes them useless ?

Partake in what exactly?

shaveAbullock

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

The US, Canada and Portugal and other jurisdictions also meet the description.

In the US it is a schedule one drug, this is reserved for what the federal government considered the most dangerous drugs.
While illegal here the Irish government does not consider it as dangerous.

Church on Tuesday

tommyombomb wrote: »

Honestly i dont have an opinion either way, would prefer government to make tax money on it rather than criminals. Also know lots of people who use it who are successful. Wasters who use it were wasters beforehand. There is a direct correlation with opiod reduction in states where legalized in America.

Anyone who thinks its a gateway drug know nothing, even some people who claim to work with people in this thread. Never seen anyone take coke, pills etc after smoking or sober. Only use it in combination with alcohol. Shocked how backwards the people online are.

Too many people still believe media and information from years ago. Read up, watch documentaries and re-educate yourself before posting or having an opinion on something you think you know about.

Also gateway argument is because people buy it from illegal sources who want to upsell. Personally feel every person who ends up on harder drugs when upsold is due to the failing of the state.

Imagine if money spent arresting people and imprisoning people for weed went to mental health and education?

Total nonsense. It's not the states fault, it's the individual in questions choice to get into harder drugs and what ever might follow after.

It's personal responsibility, but of course we can't be having that now can we? :rolleyes:

LuasSimon

Austria! wrote: »

It's not really clear what role cannabis played in his death, but regardless didn't this happen in Ireland where drugs are illegal? Is it that you think it would happen more if it was legalised?

I’d be aware of something similar where a neighbours son who always struck me as ok starting smoking weed in his late teens , lost his job a few years later due to not been able to get out of bed , had a few other jobs over the years before in his late twenties becoming very withdrawn and paranoid ended up with no job stuck in his bedroom smoking weed for a number of years before in his late 30s his mother went in one morning and he was dead . The drug dealer used call to the window of his bedroom to sell him drugs whilst his mother cried inside in the kitchen two or three times a week taking his dole and whatever he had taken out of his mothers purse .

Thelonious Monk

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

It absolutely is a gateway drug.

Smells like **** too.

Booze is a far bigger gateway drug than anything else. No one buys a bag of coke when you're stoned out of your head, they buy it after a few pints. No one even does coke without booze, or ecstasy or anything really.

Either way I can't see it being decriminalised here any time soon, we're quite nannyish when it comes to alcohol even, compared to our Euro neighbours. And can you imagine the uproar on Joe Duffy etc.
It's fairly easy to buy small amounts on the internet with minimum risk, I like a smoke from time to time and the legality of it doesn't really affect me.

Thelonious Monk

ShatterAlan wrote: »

It's pretty much full-blown illegal in pretty much every country in Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Western Europe and Eastern Europe.

You can go into shops in Spain and buy it over the counter

corner of hells

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You can go into shops in Spain and buy it over the counter

Do you mean the social clubs ?

Topdolla

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And how many doped out potheads are a positive influence on society?
Does it help them to work and contribute to society, or does it just mean they can be lazy nobodies drugged out on their sofa?

Of course it's a gateway drug.
They get their weed from drug dealers, you don't think they try upselling?

I'd a brother-in-law... never harmed a soul, but loved his weed.
Out of employment more than he was in it.

Got a call he was found dead on his sofa.
I still remember the roars of his mother as his body was brought into their sitting room before the funeral.

These days, alcohol would be considered a drug and banned. But too ingrained in society.

Decriminalising drugs only helps the useless losers that use them, certainly does absolutely no good for the decent people who contribute to society.

Was cannabis the cause of his death? I highly doubt it

Thelonious Monk

corner of hells wrote: »

Do you mean the social clubs ?

I think that's what they are, you just need a membership or something I have friends who have bought it over the counter there

Sarcozies

corner of hells wrote: »

Continue with other duties and I'd imagine the average would be delighted if he didn't have to go to court dealing with half wits who haven't got the cop on to be discrete with thier drug use.

Just as I'm sure the average drug dealer won't resort to robbing people's dwellings and stabbing people because cannabis is legalised.