Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0416/1210286-quarantine-high-court/

"Dr Darina O'Flanagan, who is also an adviser to the National Public Health Emergency Team, said the last thing she wanted was that in the summer there would be huge outbreaks of the South African variant here, against which vaccines would not work.
Dr O'Flanagan said current vaccines do not work as well against the South African and Brazilian variants, and it was really important to make sure they do not get a foothold in the country."
Either she is being misquoted or has a loose relationship with the truth.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Show new the Statutory Instrument from the Irish Statute book.
In the absence of this law show me those people who are going to book trips to Ireland without certainty that they won't have to quarantine at their expense in a bland airport hotel for 14 days assuming that somebody is ars3d enough to arrange their PCR test so that they are allowed be release from detention at the end of the 14 days.

So you're saying you haven't seen the news or is it that you don't believe the necessary changes are being made?

The Government is to allow fully vaccinated people to be exempt from staying in mandatory hotel quarantine, and will instead quarantine at home.

Pending legal changes that will be necessary, the change will come into effect in the coming days.

https://www.thejournal.ie/fully-vaccinated-exempt-from-mandatory-hotel-quarantine-5411338-Apr2021/

So no I won't show you the "Statutory Instrument" or "show you the people"????

faceman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0416/1210286-quarantine-high-court/

"Dr Darina O'Flanagan, who is also an adviser to the National Public Health Emergency Team, said the last thing she wanted was that in the summer there would be huge outbreaks of the South African variant here, against which vaccines would not work.
Dr O'Flanagan said current vaccines do not work as well against the South African and Brazilian variants, and it was really important to make sure they do not get a foothold in the country."
Either she is being misquoted or has a loose relationship with the truth.

She was quoted the same in the Irish Times. Deplorable misinformation from an “expert”

Between her, McConkey, Staines, Scally, one has to wonder who sets the bar for these “experts”.

As Fr. Merrin once said, “He will lie to confuse us. But he will also mix lies with the truth to attack us. The attack is psychological, Damien, and powerful. So don't listen to him.” :pac:








(Ok perhaps I’m using a bit of creative license with that quote )

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

So you're saying you haven't seen the news or is it that you don't believe the necessary changes are being made?



https://www.thejournal.ie/fully-vaccinated-exempt-from-mandatory-hotel-quarantine-5411338-Apr2021/

So no I won't show you the "Statutory Instrument" or "show you the people"????

News means nothing. Statutory Instruments and laws are what determine whether vaccinated people have to quarantine in a hotel or not.
For the foreseeable future vaccinated people and those recovered from Corona are expected to enter MHQ.

gozunda

faceman wrote: »

Let’s agree to disagree here. The state has confirmed its detention, there’s nothing further to add

Except the only reason we have MHQ is to discourage unnecessary travel from areas with high rates of infection / voc and to help detect any additional infections from these areas for those who do travel.

faceman wrote: »

The U.K. hasn’t mirrored anything ireland has done through the pandemic in relation to travel. Even regular travelling, the U.K. doesn’t passport check people travelling from Ireland, whereas Ireland does check those travelling from the U.K.

I was referring to the Common Travel Area rights which can only be exercised by citizens of Ireland and the UK. If you are not a citizen of Ireland or the UK, you cannot exercise Common Travel Area rights. As a result citizens of both jurisdictions face less covid related restrictions than those out side the CTA.

The UK, for the purposes of the Common Travel Area, covers England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

Irish and UK citizens have the right to live, travel, work and study within the Common Travel Area. The rights of Irish citizens have been recognised in the UK’s Immigration and Social Security (EU Withdrawal) Act 2020.

Irish and UK citizens can live in either country and enjoy associated rights and privileges,

faceman wrote: »

Is that risk equal? Is a negative pcr test giving the same risk as no test? Granted I’m mostly ok with non EU countries being reviewed for MHQ as long as the criteria is transparent and measurable. The public should be able to foresee when a country is at risk of being added to the list.

"Public should be able to foresee"? Like them or otherwise - we voted in a (multi party) government. That's their job. John and Mary don't get to decide whether a restriction is not favourable for them

faceman wrote: »

We don’t put people in prison for illegal parking. The penalty has to be proportionate to risk. There are parts of the EU where risk is low. But as I said before, until you put your domestic cases and their close contacts in detention centres then Ireland is pissing in the wind

And again the less than subtle rephrasing from quarantine to detention (as opposed to being detained for public health reasons) to prison is a little facetious tbf.

Afaik there is no listing of all EU countries- just those who are deemed to be of risk with regard to travel.

That's about it

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

And again the less than subtle rephrasing from quarantine to detention (as opposed to being detained for public health reasons) to prison is a little facetious tbf.

People are being detained against their will.
Of those who are being detained many are being detained against their will for spurious public health reasons.
You speak as though it much ado about nothing.

faceman

gozunda wrote: »

Except the only reason we have MHQ is to discourage unnecessary travel from areas with high rates of infection / voc and to help detect any additional infections from these areas for those who do travel.

In principle that’s fair, in reality it has large implications on people who travel for essential reasons

wrote:

I was referring to the Common Travel Area rights which can only be exercised by citizens of Ireland and the UK. If you are not a citizen of Ireland or the UK, you cannot exercise Common Travel Area rights. As a result citizens of both jurisdictions face less covid related restrictions than those out side the CTA.

Point taken. I’m still convinced of alignment between nations though given we did impose a travel ban on U.K. travellers temporarily


[quote=
"Public should be able to foresee"? Like them or otherwise - we voted in a (multi party) government. That's their job. John and Mary don't get to decide whether a restriction is not favourable for them [/quote]

What I meant was a scheme similar to the reopen Europe map that indicates risk per area.

wrote:

And again the less than subtle rephrasing from quarantine to detention (as opposed to being detained for public health reasons) to prison is a little facetious tbf.

Afaik there is no listing of all EU countries- just those who are deemed to be of risk with regard to travel.

That's about it

Detained for public health reasons sounds great, but sadly given some of the choices on the list, which don’t meet the very loose criteria that is assessed, coupled with the misinformation shared by a NPHET member in court on Friday and the reveal that Ireland wanted to stall the EU travel very till September purely because of the lack of infrastructure to implement it, does give confidence that decisions are being made on public health grounds

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

People are being detained against their will.
Of those who are being detained many are being detained against their will for spurious public health reasons.
You speak as though it much ado about nothing.

Well people are choosing to travel - knowing that NHQ is required.

So you believe Covid-19 is "spurious public health reasons"? ... ok so

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Well people are choosing to travel - knowing that NHQ is required ..

So you believe Covid-19 is "spurious public health reasons"? ... ok so

You are twisting words. Detaining someone who isn't spreading the virus because they have already been immunized or vaccinated is "a spurious reason".

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are twisting words. Detaining someone who isn't spreading the virus because they have already been immunized or vaccinated is "a spurious reason".

Nope. Just what it is.

We've already discussed that. Apparently the restrictions for those who are fully vaccinated are changing - and as such won't be required to enter into MHQ

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Nope. Just what it is.

We've already discussed that. Apparently the restrictions for those who are fully vaccinated are changing - and as such won't be required to enter into MHQ

And I've made it clear that nobody is going to travel until it is on the statute books. Are you just being obtuse? You are soundly beaten on this point.
The law enforces MHQ. The Minister will be in no hurry to adjust it for those who should never have been subject to the quarantine to begin with.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And I've made it clear that nobody is going to travel until it is on the statute books. Are you just being obtuse? You are soundly beaten on this point.
The law enforces MHQ. The Minister will be in no hurry to adjust it for those who should never have been subject to the quarantine to begin with.

Have you? Are you being "obtuse"? Because it Looks like the changes are already being processed. So yup that will be the new status quo. You are soundly beaten on this point. Eitherway where people choose to not travel in the first place - they won't be "subject the quarantine to begin with" will they?

Funnily enough the UK has no such exemption with regard to its MHQ ...

Edit. Update it seems its already in place

Minister must have been in a hurry ...

https://www.thejournal.ie/hotel-quarantine-exemptions-5406098-Apr2021/

Regulations have been signed and are in operation from today to allow for a limited number of exemptions from Mandatory Hotel Quarantine,” said Minister Donnelly

While fully vaccinated people travelling from a listed country will no longer need to be quarantined in a hotel, they are still obliged to quarantine at home for two weeks. They must also present a negative PCR test.

Happy?

Van.Bosch

Say two parents have vaccines and kids under 16 don’t. What happens then with MHQ?

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Have you? Are you being "obtuse"? Because it Looks like the changes are already being processed. So yup that will be the new status quo. You are soundly beaten on this point. Eitherway where people choose to not travel in the first place - they won't be "subject the quarantine to begin with" will they?

Funnily enough the UK has no such exemption with regard to its MHQ ...

Edit. Update it seems its already in place

Minister must have been in a hurry ...

https://www.thejournal.ie/hotel-quarantine-exemptions-5406098-Apr2021/



Happy?

No. A civil right is being overridden by a law introduced in haste. It needs to be removed from statute.
Here is a scenario: If someone was returning from abroad and the Government wanted to limit that person's movement they could make themselves available to give the exemption. A person's liberty shouldn't be within the gift of the Minister for Health.

Valhallapt

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Say two parents have vaccines and kids under 16 don’t. What happens then with MHQ?

Well historically we took the children and sold them in the USA. But apparently MHQ can’t be compared to other times when Ireland detained people without trial... so who knows

jimmycrackcorm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0416/1210286-quarantine-high-court/

"Dr Darina O'Flanagan, who is also an adviser to the National Public Health Emergency Team, said the last thing she wanted was that in the summer there would be huge outbreaks of the South African variant here, against which vaccines would not work.
Dr O'Flanagan said current vaccines do not work as well against the South African and Brazilian variants, and it was really important to make sure they do not get a foothold in the country."
Either she is being misquoted or has a loose relationship with the truth.

The vaccines do work, just not as effective compared to the non-variants.
The problem is going to be that as variants arise, this will always be the case and her arguments will be the same. So we can never change unless it is accepted that there is going to be some scenarios whereby people are still going to die because of covid.

It's like saying we need to keep in lockdown and MHQ until people give up driving because some die in car accidents.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No. A civil right is being overridden by a law introduced in haste. It needs to be removed from statute.
Here is a scenario: If someone was returning from abroad and the Government wanted to limit that person's movement they could make themselves available to give the exemption. A person's liberty shouldn't be within the gift of the Minister for Health.

Eh? That makes no sense. Of course they "could". They could also declare that Kim Jong Un as our new overlord or Michael D Higgins as the new King of Ireland.

As it is current covid related legislation is limited. And without an overwhelming reason such as I dunno a global pandemic then otherwise quarentine wouldn't happen.

Public health and quarantining people for that reason is within the remit of the Minister for Health.

Are things likley subject to change / alteration at least until the pandemic is properly controlled? Yes most likely. The current change is a case in point.

beggars_bush

Valhallapt wrote: »

Well historically we took the children and sold them in the USA. But apparently MHQ can’t be compared to other times when Ireland detained people without trial... so who knows

magdelene/covid conspiracy incoming

Valhallapt

beggars_bush wrote: »

magdelene/covid conspiracy incoming

Not at all, but people on here think it’s perfectly ok to detain families who have been fully vaccinated and tested negative for covid and confine them in a shoebox as they can’t be trusted to isolate in their own home. But their neighbours are free to throw house party after house party and run very little risk of a small fine.

beggars_bush

Valhallapt wrote: »

Not at all, but people on here think it’s perfectly ok to detain families who have been fully vaccinated and tested negative for covid and confine them in a shoebox as they can’t be trusted to isolate in their own home. But their neighbours are free to throw house party after house party and run very little risk of a small fine.

maybe email your local TDs abut the second part of your post

saabsaab

Valhallapt wrote: »

Not at all, but people on here think it’s perfectly ok to detain families who have been fully vaccinated and tested negative for covid and confine them in a shoebox as they can’t be trusted to isolate in their own home. But their neighbours are free to throw house party after house party and run very little risk of a small fine.

One does not relate to the other but the parties shouldn't go ahead at present. Where are new variants more like to come from?

Prisoner6409

This has been a total failure by Government, while we joe public have not been allowed travel 5km's from our homes others have been allowed fly thousands of miles around the world spreading all sorts of variants and don't get me started on the idiots who want to be allowed fly to meet someone they have only ever met online, ffs, you would think we were not in the middle of a Global Pandemic.

gozunda

Prisoner6409 wrote: »

This has been a total failure by Government, while we joe public have not been allowed travel 5km's from our homes others have been allowed fly thousands of miles around the world spreading all sorts of variants and don't get me started on the idiots who want to be allowed fly to meet someone they have only ever met online, ffs, you would think we were not in the middle of a Global Pandemic.

Though better we have it now than not at all. It was reported that more than approx. 30,000 people flew through Dublin Airport for holidays in the time between the Government flagged enhanced fines for non-essential travel and the heavier fines being enacted. 30,000 people flying for "holidays" in the midst of a global fuqing pandemic.

Not flying to look after their sick granny or having to so do for work. Nope fuking holidays. And yeah that's not to say holidays are not important for all of us. But if some precious eejit believes that their immediate holiday outweighs the needs for keeping the infection rate down whilst vaccinations are being carried out - they can be locked up and I'll personally throw away the key.

You have to appreciate the neck of those (and excluding genuine essential cases tbf) of the heads flying in from red list countries - who not only have decided they are personally exempt from any travel restrictions but on top of that - they should be also exempt from MHQ because well because they're well special. Imho much the same proviso applies to that cohort of eejits as well. :mad:

caveat emptor

I think this illustrates why pre departure testing isn't the catch-all people want.

https://twitter.com/KarenGrepin/status/1383785013548777475?s=20

22 more passengers tested positive today after their Day 12 hotel quarantine test.

faceman

saabsaab wrote: »

One does not relate to the other but the parties shouldn't go ahead at present. Where are new variants more like to come from?

Cool let’s just ignore domestic sources of transmission saabx2

Stevek101

caveat emptor wrote: »

I think this illustrates why pre departure testing isn't the catch-all people want.

https://twitter.com/KarenGrepin/status/1383785013548777475?s=20

As most tested positive on the 12th day it's more than likely they acquired it in MHQ and not onboard.

caveat emptor

Stevek101 wrote: »

As most tested positive on the 12th day it's more than likely they acquired it in MHQ and not onboard.

22 out of 47 isn't most.

Stevek101

caveat emptor wrote: »

22 out of 47 isn't most.

I didn't see when the others tested positive. Even if it was day 5 it would suggest exposure at MHQ.

gozunda

faceman wrote: »

Cool let’s just ignore domestic sources of transmission saabx2

No I don't think that means that at all. Certainly domestic sources of transmission have to be managed and if that means enforcing restrictions then so be it.

As to "Where are new variants more like to come from?"

A principle route is known to be undetected travel related cases which means that some spread covid unknowingly.

is_that_so

gozunda wrote: »

No I don't think that means that at all. Certainly domestic sources of transmission have to be managed and if that means enforcing restrictions then so be it.

As to "Where are new variants more like to come from?"

A principle route is known to be undetected travel related cases which means that some spread covid unknowingly.

There are 750K of these variants and an absolutely minute number have been shown to be VOCs. The current extreme alarm is because of a lack of vaccinated population pools.