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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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    #1892
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    I will not answer you're question as according to you're logic you have put words in my mouth.

    You won't answer it because you know perfectly well that if the shoe were on the other foot you would hope to be welcomed and have a chance for safety and opportunity for you and your family. I don't actually need you to answer it, it was rhetorical anyway. :pac:

    PS: its *your, not you're


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    #1893
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    TomTomTim wrote: »
    You sound like a Trócaire ad

    And I've already said what many of you sound like.
    I'd rather sound like a Trócaire ad than the rest of ye.


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    #1894
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    You won't answer it because you know perfectly well that if the shoe were on the other foot you would hope to be welcomed and have a chance for safety and opportunity for you and your family. I don't actually need you to answer it, it was rhetorical anyway. :pac:

    haha you wouldn't answer mine because you know its not feasible to for a small country like Ireland to have mass immigration no matter where the people came from or their backstorys, the population unfortunately for you of the third world wont fit into our island. Obviously if i was a refugee i would hope to move to better country and be welcomed your argument is nonsensical.


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    #1895
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    haha you wouldn't answer mine because you know its not feasible to for a small country like Ireland to have mass immigration no matter where the people came from or their backstorys, the population unfortunately for you of the third world wont fit into our island. Obviously if i was a refugee i would hope to move to better country and be welcomed your argument is nonsensical.

    1. We are not facing mass, open immigration here of the entire 3rd world joining us
    2. I know it hasn't occurred to you, but it is actually possible to discuss immigration without such nasty overtones of privilege and racism and devaluing others while,
    3. Looking to help solve some of the problems real people face, because,
    4. It's what you would desperately want if the shoe were on the other foot
    5. So you're a hypocrite


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    #1896
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    1. We are not facing mass, open immigration here of the entire 3rd world joining us
    2. I know it hasn't occurred to you, but it is actually possible to discuss immigration without such nasty overtones of privilege and racism and devaluing others while,
    3. Looking to help solve some of the problems real people face, because,
    4. It's what you would desperately want if the shoe were on the other foot
    5. So you're a hypocrite

    Explain to me where i said anything racist? You seriously come across as having anger issues, the vast majority on here agree with refuges coming here for better lives, its economic migrants who come here people are against who expect houses on arrival after a stint in direct provision. Not too hard to understand but again you couldn't have outrage if you actually read what most people say on here who are reasoned. I asked would you agree with anybody who wanted to come here and you wouldn't answer so we know your policy on immigration.


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    #1897
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    1. We are not facing mass, open immigration here of the entire 3rd world joining us
    2. I know it hasn't occurred to you, but it is actually possible to discuss immigration without such nasty overtones of privilege and racism and devaluing others while,
    3. Looking to help solve some of the problems real people face, because,
    4. It's what you would desperately want if the shoe were on the other foot
    5. So you're a hypocrite

    Explain to me where i devalued any human, you are making all this up in your head, see a counselor you couldn't be happy.


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    #1898
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    Explain to me where i devalued any human, you are making all this up in your head, see a counselor you couldn't be happy.

    You need to calm down. I referred to people in general on this thread, and obviously you have no problem with the tone of some posts here but I do and I'm entitled to my opinion. Tough. I've been quite clear on where I stand.


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    #1899
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Are you saying that if you were from a different country and faced horrible challenges for you and your family that you wouldn't hope to be welcomed somewhere safer?

    Hope yeah, but so what. It doesn't mean we should get to move and be provided with a new life in any other country. How many billion people in the world are less well off than us. By your logic they would hope for a better life in a rich western country. So should they all get it.

    We need to be very careful, look what's happening in America with the increasing resentment and racism against white people under the guise of 'white privilege'. Its only going to get worse. Why would we bring that upon ourselves.

    We should be very choosey about who we let stay here and feel no shame for it. The future for our children and grandchildren is more important than being recklessly virtuous.


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    #1900
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    You need to calm down. I referred to people in general on this thread, and obviously you have no problem with the tone of some posts here but I do and I'm entitled to my opinion. Tough. I've been quite clear on where I stand.

    I am perfectly calm you are the one on here using words like nasty racist etc to describe anybody who doesn't agree with your view, i am open minded and agree on immigration for genuine refugees but you fail to be open minded when others discuss economic migrants. BTW some of the posts are racist but vast majority are not so dont presume i agree with the tones of all posts on here.


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    #1901
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    2u2me wrote: »
    You've answered with a lot of benefits; but wasn't the question what benefits are there for the host nation?
    Mostly the feel good factor, with a higher chance(when compared to illegal/quasi legal economic migrants) of extra skillsets that you would have with legal migration.
    Stateofyou wrote: »
    What a privilege it is to be sitting here in our safe country debating about "multiculturalism" aka anti-immigration while others simply had the bad luck to be born where they were. Many without peace and safety for themselves or their children, lack of food and housing, stability or opportunity. Some people are just trying to live and if the shoe were on the other foot and we faced the same challenges we would hope that others would accept us. 126 pages bickering about the worth of human lives. This thread is disgusting.
    Well you're all over the place there for a start. Lord knows where you got multiculturalism equating with anti-immigration. Never mind that I can't recall a single post that was against actual asylum seekers fleeing actual persecution.

    Nope, the main issues that people are asking questions about is a) is the politic of multiculturalism itself working or a workable one and b) are chancers gaming the system?

    In the case of a) it's pretty easy to list out the negatives and negatives that are evident in every single multicultural nation in the modern world, not least for those migrant populations who don't quite fit with the local, whereas the positives listed so far seem to just amount to exotic food and cheap labour and feeling virtuous at some remove.

    In the case of b) well, let's look at the demographics of diversity that came to Ireland during the boom on the back of a unique legal loophole. Since that loophole was closed - and by a large majority of the Irish voting base by the way - the same demographics are refused entry nearly 100% of the time. So how did the same people who came here during the boom who were apparently grand magically turn into chancers in the interim? Even Leo Varadkar publicly noted this regarding migrants from Georgia, and Romania and Ukraine. Which also brings up another issue. He left out migrants from sub Saharan Africa which make up a large percentage of those now refused, but he avoided mentioning them entirely. Well it's OK to point out White chancers, but pointing out not so White chancers is something that's become verboten. An interesting equality to be sure. Add in that the same flag wavers for multicultural diversity would have a pearl clutching fit if it were suggested that what a majority Black nation really needs to be better is more White faces migrating in. Another interesting equality going on.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1902
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hope yeah, but so what. It doesn't mean we should get to move and be provided with a new life in any other country. How many billion people in the world are less well off than us. By your logic they would hope for a better life in a rich western country. So should they all get it.

    We need to be very careful, look what's happening in America with the increasing resentment and racism against white people under the guise of 'white privilege'. Its only going to get worse. Why would we bring that upon ourselves.

    We should be very choosey about who we let stay here and feel no shame for it. The future for our children and grandchildren is more important than being recklessly virtuous.

    Well that part in bold certainly sums it up. What a glaring lack of empathy. You wouldn't want to hear "so what" if you were in their position.
    Yeah, everyone deserves better. Everyone.
    Your reference of America shows total ignorance of the issues there. The increasing resentment is due to a divisive president, his government and also economic conditions there of widespread struggle, lack of support, and poverty among its ordinary citizens. They also have a unique history of slavery of black people and the systemic oppression built for and upheld by white people who are often oblivious- hence "white privilege."

    People immigrating from horrible conditions also want a future for their children and grandchildren.


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    #1903
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    I am perfectly calm you are the one on here using words like nasty racist etc to describe anybody who doesn't agree with your view, i am open minded and agree on immigration for genuine refugees but you fail to be open minded when others discuss economic migrants. BTW some of the posts are racist but vast majority are not so dont presume i agree with the tones of all posts on here.

    Yeah, racism and xenophobia and unempathetic privilege is nasty behaviour and I'm perfectly justified in calling it out. Tough if you don't like it.


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    #1904
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Yeah, racism and xenophobia and unempathetic privilege is nasty behaviour and I'm perfectly justified in calling it out. Tough if you don't like it.
    Point me to where i said i like racist xenophobic behavior, again its all in your head this outrage you are creating. Just because somebody doesn't agree with your stance does not make them what you want them to be.


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    #1905
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Wibbs wrote: »

    Well you're all over the place there for a start. Lord knows where you got multiculturalism equating with anti-immigration. Never mind that I can't recall a single post that was against actual asylum seekers fleeing actual persecution.

    You can't be serious. This whole thread is a shining example of racist, anti-immigration rants, open xenophobia, and lovely discussions about the benefits or drawbacks of certain types of people. Disgraceful is what this most of this thread is. Entitled and unempathetic privilege from people who simply won the luck of the birth place draw.


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    #1906
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    Point me to where i said i like racist xenophobic behavior, again its all in your head this outrage you are creating. Just because somebody doesn't agree with your stance does not make them what you want them to be.

    Calm down. You seem to be disproportionately triggered.
    Point me to where you took a stand against it.


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    #1907
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    Point me to where i said i like racist xenophobic behavior, again its all in your head this outrage you are creating. Just because somebody doesn't agree with your stance does not make them what you want them to be.
    Well it can be argued that it has to make them what they want, nay need them to be. Because as I've noted the arguments for multiculturalism are scant, so it's a shaky position to kick off with and measured defence options are limited so attack is the easier option. That and the appeal to emotion. It's a common part of the oppressed/oppressor politic no matter where it's found, no matter who is what in the narrative and marks those out as believers.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1908
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Calm down. You seem to be disproportionately triggered.
    Point me to where you took a stand against it.

    Your head must be a lonely place, get out and enjoy some fresh air today. I dont engage with racists so any posters i feel are racist i dont engage with, racists dont thrive when they have little oxygen.


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    #1909
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Add in that the same flag wavers for multicultural diversity would have a pearl clutching fit if it were suggested that what a majority Black nation really needs to be better is more White faces migrating in. Another interesting equality going on.

    If you remember, 'white faces' historically thinking that what black 'savage' nations really need is more white people aka colonisers and plunderers so it doesn't need to be suggested, it has already happened for hundreds of years.

    Racist and greedy domination of another culture has what to do with refugee or economic migrants, which only proves my point about the ugly comments on immigration discussions all over this thread.


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    #1910
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    Your head must be a lonely place, get out and enjoy some fresh air today. I dont engage with racists so any posters i feel are racist i dont engage with, racists dont thrive when they have little oxygen.

    So look the other way while the sh!t goes on because you're not directly affected by it. The very definition of white privilege. Thanks for proving a point.


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    #1911
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Well it can be argued that it has to make them what they want, nay need them to be. Because as I've noted the arguments for multiculturalism are scant, so it's a shaky position to kick off with and measured defence options are limited so attack is the easier option. That and the appeal to emotion. It's a common part of the oppressed/oppressor politic no matter where it's found, no matter who is what in the narrative and marks those out as believers.

    Do you even realise how entitled, privileged and unempathetic you sound? Congrats, you won the birth place lottery so you have no need of an appeal to anyone else's emotion and kind heartedness of others, more safer and opportunistic people and countries. So F everyone else who weren't so lucky. They can appeal to emotion somewhere else. You're not persuaded enough by their appeals of the benefits (aka real people) of multiculturalism. Lovely.

    "Attack...":pac: Meanwhile some people actually live in scary places getting attacked for real. Internet "attacks" are so scary!! Oh no! :pac:


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    #1912
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    What a privilege it is to be sitting here in our safe country ......
    Stateofyou wrote: »
    ....... without such nasty overtones of privilege and racism
    Ah, the auld white Irish privilege blame again. We should all hang our heads in shame for being born in our "safe"(?) white country.

    I'll tell you the actual privilege that many Irish have; it's the privilege of getting up early in the morning and and go to work in order to pay for the substantial numbers of non-EU economic migrants arriving at Dublin airport to avail of the our generous social welfare and free-housing-for-life system.

    I usually find that those who want to welcome with open arms those who want to migrate to Ireland from outside of the EU are either:
    1. Involved in the very lucrative asylum/migrant industry.
    2. Do not contribute to the exchequer in a meaningful manner in order to help pay for their utopian open border concept of accepting all who want to come.


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    #1913
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    You can't be serious. This whole thread is a shining example of racist, anti-immigration rants, open xenophobia, and lovely discussions about the benefits or drawbacks of certain types of people.
    While an unpalatable one it is nevertheless a truth that people have a "value" to society and quite the measurable one. And before you go off on one "race" has little or nothing to do with it. A Black Jamaican doctor has more "value" than a White French day labourer to a society. Secondly yep xenophobia and racism is indeed a major and fundamental problem with multiculturalism wherever it's in play. It's written deep in the human psyche and is no respecter of colour or creed or geography. More homogenous non multicultural societies quite simply have less of it.
    Disgraceful is what this most of this thread is. Entitled and unempathetic privilege from people who simply won the luck of the birth place draw.
    While there's something to the luck of the draw aspect, it is also clear it's not the whole story. If it were the East Asian diaspora would be more likely to be found at the bottom end of the socioeconomic scale as the African diaspora is. But they're not. Indeed on average they actually outperform the White locals or diaspora.

    By the by, your regular fallback to "privilege" is a sure sign of the secondhand absorption of an accepted truth, rather than any independently drawn conclusion of your own.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1914
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Well that part in bold certainly sums it up. What a glaring lack of empathy. You wouldn't want to hear "so what" if you were in their position.
    Yeah, everyone deserves better. Everyone.
    Your reference of America shows total ignorance of the issues there. The increasing resentment is due to a divisive president.

    First and foremost asylum should be provided in the nearest safe country and should be temporary where possible. Someone simply waking up in Nigeria or Pakistan some day and deciding they want a better life in the west is just not acceptable imo. That's who we are getting now.

    Btw this has been going on long before Trump.


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    #1915
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Ah, the auld white Irish privilege blame again. We should all hang our heads in shame for being born in our "safe"(?) white country.

    I'll tell you the actual privilege that many Irish have; it's the privilege of getting up early in the morning and and go to work in order to pay for the substantial numbers of non-EU economic migrants arriving at Dublin airport to avail of the our generous social welfare and free-housing-for-life system.

    I usually find that those who want to welcome with open arms those who want to migrate to Ireland from outside of the EU are either:
    1. Involved in the very lucrative asylum/migrant industry.
    2. Do not contribute to the exchequer in a meaningful manner in order to help pay for their utopian open border concept of accepting all who want to come.

    Ah, the old white Irish catastrophic thinking rears it's ugly head yet again. Pointing out ugly racist and xenophobic talk that devalues others while suggesting better. Having empathy. Focusing on solutions... is somehow massively triggering some to believe all they can and should do is be shamed and aim toward utopia or nothing else at all. Super productive and amazing effort at playing the victim.

    Yeah, being able to sleep safely in your own house and getting up to go to your job actually is a privilege. Paying taxes to benefit others in our communities is a good thing, as is using some of our resources to help others who aren't so lucky. Because again, you damn well would want and hope that you would have the same help if the shoe were on the other foot.


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    #1916
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    So look the other way while the sh!t goes on because you're not directly affected by it. The very definition of white privilege. Thanks for proving a point.

    Proving a point by you to you that you believe in, i do not believe in the existence of white privilege in a majority white country like Ireland, could you point me to the systems i benefit from in Ireland due to my pale face?


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    #1917
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Wibbs wrote: »

    By the by, your regular fallback to "privilege" is a sure sign of the secondhand absorption of an accepted truth, rather than any independently drawn conclusion of your own.

    I think your regular fall back to "ah well F everyone else" stance is a sure sign of entitled privilege and arrogance. Are you so sure that Ireland will never find itself on the wrong side of war or economic or climate disaster? Wonder will you stay here so and die with all your family or will you quickly find your emotional appeal skills and petition other luckier countries to allow you to survive and thrive.


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    #1918
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    I think your regular fall back to "ah well F everyone else" stance is a sure sign of entitled privilege and arrogance. Are you so sure that Ireland will never find itself on the wrong side of war or economic or climate disaster? Wonder will you stay here so and die with all your family or will you quickly find your emotional appeal skills and petition other luckier countries to allow you to survive and thrive.

    If the sh*t hits the fan here we will likely move to our European neighbours or to the anglosphere countries of Anerica OZ or NZ. Countries where we have existing history and relationships. We wont be going to Cameroon or Bangladesh.


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    #1919
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    Proving a point by you to you that you believe in, i do not believe in the existence of white privilege in a majority white country like Ireland, could you point me to the systems i benefit from in Ireland due to my pale face?

    You're serious aren't you... you don't really expect me to spend my morning teaching you about what white privilege is when information is there for you to look into yourself at your literal fingertips. The reality and fact is racism exists here in Ireland too and permeates throughout society, manifesting in many ways. I have to point out to you that not engaging in standing up against it where you see it is wrong? There's not enough time in my morning to do that, and educating yourself is your own responsibility. That said, if you'd like to first spend some time researching white privilege and what that means and how you benefit from it and continue to uphold it by looking the other way, I'm down for that. PM me afterwards anytime for further discussion! I mean that.


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    #1920
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    You're serious aren't you... you don't really expect me to spend my morning teaching you about what white privilege is when information is there for you to look into yourself at your literal fingertips. The reality and fact is racism exists here in Ireland too and permeates throughout society, manifesting in many ways. I have to point out to you that not engaging in standing up against it where you see it is wrong? There's not enough time in my morning to do that, and educating yourself is your own responsibility. That said, if you'd like to first spend some time researching white privilege and what that means and how you benefit from it and continue to uphold it by looking the other way, I'm down for that. PM me afterwards anytime for further discussion! I mean that.

    Just point me to 1system i benefit from in IRELAND by being white. That will suffice.


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    #1921
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If the sh*t hits the fan here we will likely move to our European neighbours or to the anglosphere countries of Anerica OZ or NZ. Countries where we have existing history and relationships. We wont be going to Cameroon or Bangladesh.

    I seem to remember reading from time to time, to this day, bad feelings and sentiments about how the Irish were treated abroad. In white countries. In the same country that also once turned away a ship full of Jewish refugees sending them to their certain deaths.

    It goes without saying no one would seek to go from a country with bad economic, ecological, otherwise devastating conditions to another similar environment. Not sure what the point is there.


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