What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122104#Comment_120122104

It’s not an indisputable fact, sure amn’t I hear disputing your claim, made on the basis of trying to suggest that foreigners don’t come to Ireland to work. It certainly makes a change from the usual accusation thrown at foreigners that they’re taking all the jobs, women, and now the houses 😂

This is however, a discussion about multiculturalism, and not just immigration or foreigners, and on that basis you really don’t have much of a point about any groups work ethic, particularly given nearly half a million people among the adult population aren’t even on the Live Register.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121848#Comment_120121848

How do you expect me to show proof when you know the migration to the new site essentially nuked any polls that were conducted on VBulletin?

You knew I wouldn't be able to, so you asked for it. Bad faith acting 101 there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998626#Comment_119998626

A gay person from most of those countries can claim asylum can’t they ?

Gen.Zhukov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121655#Comment_120121655

It's like a conversation the guy fixing the air-con unit in the university bar would overhear from the little group in the corner, as they sit with their 1 pint and 4 straws chatting excitedly about the liberal utopia they will be part of, oblivious to what their country will actually look like in 20 years time

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122616#Comment_120122616

That little group in the university bar were once Mary Robinson, David Norris and Mary McAleese…

20 years later? Not bad 🤔

Strumms

Over 80 foreign nationals detained in Irish prisons for immigration offences alone last year..plus an inordinately high number in prison for other offences…

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/over-80-foreign-nationals-detained-in-irish-prisons-for-immigration-offences-last-year-1.4831725

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/a-quarter-of-prison-inmates-are-foreigners-25889768.html

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123169#Comment_120123169

I knew they were detained in Irish prisons because there was nowhere else to put them, but that figure seemed awfully low for immigration offences (they shouldn’t be in prison because immigration offences are not criminal offences), but having read the article, there’s an explanation for the figure being as low as it is -

The number of people committed to prison for immigration issues increased in the years leading up to 2019, rising from 335 detentions in 2015 to 477 in 2019. Figures dropped by nearly 50 per cent to 245 committals in 2020 when many travel routes were closed for significant periods due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

There are currently no dedicated immigration-detention facilities in Ireland, with most men sent to Cloverhill Prison in west Dublin and women going to the Dóchas Centre on the Mountjoy campus in the city centre.

…

“A prison is by definition not a suitable place in which to detain someone who is neither suspected nor convicted of a criminal offence,” said the CPT.

The Department of Justice on Sunday said that detaining a person refused entry was “only undertaken as a last resort” and that the State is obligated to return a person to their country of origin “as soon as is practicable”.

It said non-custodial measures, such as a requirement to report to a Garda station or a requirement to reside in a specified place, were widely used as alternatives to detention.

The numbers of foreign nationals in prison aren’t inordinately high either. How many should anyone realistically expect? That article is from 2004 btw, more up-to-date figures at least here -

Main findings of the research include:

• Foreign nationals receive longer sentences than Irish nationals for drug offences (on average 14 months longer) and sexual offences (on average 32 months longer);
• The IPS data – while including statistics on prisoners’ nationality – was deficient in the areas of ethnicity and religion of the prison population;
• 15% of prisoners come from a foreign national background. Further, the IPA could not provide ethnicity data for 22% of committals;
• Interviews revealed that there are significant challenges faced by foreign nationals and ethnic minority prisons in relation to access to services, respect for different religious backgrounds, and language and communication barriers;
• Experiences of racism at different stages of the criminal justice process had the effect of limiting trust with any part of the penal system.

https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integration/library-document/ireland-rights-needs-and-experiences-foreign-nationals-and-minority-ethnic-groups_en

(bold emphasis my own)

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121655#Comment_120121655

I dont think it is possible to say how older people voted Yes in the last abortion or SSM as polling can be inaccurate but many older generations did vote No in previous referendums or delay these referendums taking place which must be acknowledged. The older generation could have changed their minds in the last few year but it is most likely the younger generations who were the deciding factor in pushing thorough the Yes vote.

Conservatism is definitely the preserve of the old and rich in the UK and they are a few years ahead of us in terms of their policies- the Tories evened supported gay and abortion rights a good few years before our right wing /centre right wing parties supported those positions.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124285#Comment_120124285

Jaysus can we fooking stop with this cr** that we have right wing parties anywhere near power in this country.

FG did partially grow out of a right wing/fascist organisation in the 1930s, but that was a short lived portion of history in this state.

The party that campaigned for contraception, abortion, divorce in the 1980s, same sex marriage recently and has in no way tried to remove social welfare state is right wing?

Give us a break.

FF has always been populist and at one stage would have been socially to the right of FG, but there is no way they have ever been right wing.

No party in Ireland, bar maybe a bit of the PDs would ever be as conservatives as the UK conservative party.

Oh and this stage not one mainstream party is for proper immigration control which would mean not one is remotely right wing.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124322#Comment_120124322

It's a "reds/Far Right under the bed" boogyman among too many of the so called "progressives" and "Left" people. Ireland is extremely centrist and significantly more Left of centre, especially since the 1990's. You could fit the actual Right winger politicians into a small pub function room. And they'd disagree with each other. Their voting base would just about fill a double decker bus.

Whatever about other European nations, where they parrot this boogyman from in the first place, the Right in this country barely exists, but some, including those in the media and government keep peddling, even "gaslighting" this utter bloody nonsense. Mostly to deflect and so they can avoid having to actually discuss things they know bear discussion and for which their answers don't hold much water.

The joke is if they actually wanted to help create an actual Irish Right wing, they're going the right way about it. Again these eejits don't learn from the past and others. It was largely by ignoring genuine concerns over migration and big changes in demographics, particularly in working class urban areas, in many European nations running this socio-political multicultural policy that drove the rise of the Right from fringe to more populist.

Now whatever about ex imperial nations having their chickens come home to roost that's not Ireland and we never got a direct vote on this extra EU migration and "multiculturalism"(the couple of 100,000 White EU/Europeans are invisible to both the Left and Right and we did vote for that). The one time we did approach such a vote 80% of the Irish electorate voted nope, in the face of shouts of "racism!!" by various NGO's and the usual loud voices. FF, FG, SF et al wouldn't dare to put such a direct vote to us again. They know the answer wouldn't suit their narrative, so they just keep shouting "racism!!" and "Far Right!!".

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124322#Comment_120124322

Economically both FG and FF are right/centre right.

No other country in Europe has such privatised systems of housing or healthcare. FG/FF during the economic crisis wete cherlerleaders for hollowing out public services during the austerity years. There were 23000 public hospital beds in 2000. Its now 14000. All of this stuff isnt about migrants or refugees at all - its that centre right governments have cut back public services hugely and allowed housing to become a disgustingly over privatised market.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124322#Comment_120124322

So what makes the UK conservatives right wing and fg/ff not right wing? Apart from the illegal immigration issue which for many years the Tories did nothing about but were still conisdered right wing.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124322#Comment_120124322

Oh and this stage not one mainstream party is for proper immigration control which would mean not one is remotely right wing.

They’re not in favour of immigration control which YOU think is proper, doesn’t mean they’re not remotely right-wing, and certainly doesn’t mean you’re right-wing either. If all you’ve got is a position on immigration, then you’re missing the whole point of a party being centre-right - they’re not solely concerned with immigration in accordance with your ideals. Your position with regard to immigration would easier be described simply as populist… it’s not required to be popular, you’re just hoping to gain popular support, like SF have been doing for decades.

It’s only recently that FG have been stealing SF thunder at every opportunity in order to maintain power, and keep SF out of power. It just isn’t possible to characterise a country based on the results of referenda, which are only ever invoked to change something in the Constitution. Constitutional change wouldn’t be necessary to reform our immigration laws, that can be done by Government through legislation. Like the proposed bill which isn’t going to make Labour any more popular than they weren’t before, but it’ll help FG maintain power -

https://labour.ie/news/2022/01/31/government-must-build-on-generosity-of-regularisation-scheme-to-implement-born-here-belong-here-bill/

SF are still only hoping to capitalise on the protest vote by nitpicking at Government, and the one thing they can’t attack Government on is immigration policy, so they go for Housing and Healthcare instead, issues they know from polls that people actually care about a hell of a lot more than immigration -

https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/

Being either right-wing or conservative doesn’t mean being spiteful or trying to deprive anyone of their freedoms or their rights. That’s the mistake that parties which portray themselves as right-wing keep making, which is why they poll as dismally as they do at every election. That includes btw a character politician like Peter Casey, couldn’t even get elected at local level, because in spite of how he did in the Presidential election race (no prizes for second place), nobody wants him at local level -

2019 European parliament campaign

In April 2019 he announced he had handed in his nomination papers to contest the 2019 European Parliament election in the Midlands–North-West constituency. In May 2019 while making a speech in Dunboyne, County Meath during the campaign, Casey was filmed declaring "The face of Ireland is changing. People say 'you’re racist'. Of course I'm racist, I'm a very proud Irish man". When questioned about this statement on The Floating Voter Podcast, a series run by the Irish Independent he said that he makes “no apologies” for describing himself as a racist and continued to criticise the EU’s policies on migration. He failed to win a seat, finishing fifth in a four-seat constituency.

2020 General election campaign

He contested the 2020 general election as an independent candidate for the  Donegal constituency, and also contested Dublin West, the constituency of incumbent Taoiseach Leo Varadkar. He received 213 first preference votes in Dublin West and was eliminated on the second count. In Donegal, he received 1,142 first preference votes and did not win a seat.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Casey

questioner22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124536#Comment_120124536

All of this stuff isnt about migrants or refugees at all - its that centre right governments have cut back public services hugely and allowed housing to become a disgustingly over privatised market.

Cutting on public services now is about controlling and impoverishing the society.

Modern corrupt governments goal is to reduce every western nation to third world level. This is obviously a two-pronged strategy of bring third-world people over in droves, and lower the standards so that natives at the middle and bottom economically suffer the most and their kids, etc. The effect then is that with resources limited, natives and 'new to the parish' then turn on each other.

That's how it works. That's how they control - keeping a boot on the lower/middle class, creating crisis after crisis, as we are seeing now.

Kyokushin Grappler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124536#Comment_120124536

We've had economic crashes one after another since 2008 caused by them. Even Economically they're not Right Wing. Centre or otherwise.

Kyokushin Grappler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124593#Comment_120124593

The Tories are barely Right wing anymore. They make Corbyn look Conservative at times.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124862#Comment_120124862

The Tories make socialist Jeremy Corbyn look Conservative at times?

That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on this website, and there have been plenty of front-runners over the years.

EDIT: Actually, no. That prize goes to the poster who said they knew dozens of people emigrating and every one of them said it was because of Eamon Ryan. Nothing will top that level of bullsh*t.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124885#Comment_120124885

Perhaps he means Corbyn was more of a traditionalist Left wing idealist than say Tony Blair- Corbyn being an old school socialist and pro-Trade union and anti-EU.

There seems to be multiple different definitions of what constitutes Right Wing evident by the fact that so many posters thanked the post where it was said that you cant be right wing if you are not anti-illegal immigration. Calling a party right wing is not a pejorative or being negative about the party- I just think it refers to being pro-private enterprise, pro- privatization, pro limiting the size of social welfare. You dont have to be similar to Orban to be called Right Wing and right wing is totally different to Far Right.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124817#Comment_120124817

Wrong forum. Try conspiracy theories.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124536#Comment_120124536

They are more centrists or at least they were.

Yes privatisation did become a thing in Ireland especially from the 90s onwards.

We had Eircom, Sucra Eireann and the sell off of corporation housing.

Part of that was copied from our nearest neighbours who sold everything and anything in the 80s.

I think selling off housing stock proved a vote winner because suddenly you were allowing people own their own homes.

As for healthcare a lot of that has to do with the state carrying on it's age old habit of not investing in public services.

The state has always saved money and effort by getting others to do what it should be doing.

Now granted for large portions of our state history we didn't have two coppers to rub together to spend anyway.

We as a state abdicated responsibility for education and indeed health to religious institutions for decades.

We copied UK in abdicating responsibility for the housing of lower income and welfare dependent people on the private sector.

Yes some connected ones have benefited through all of this, but that is not some right wing conspiracy, I would say it is the Irish sleeveen nod and a wink culture.

But that still doesn't mean we should have an almost open borders immigration system where we invite in people that immediately go on state supports.

It is bad for the existing taxpayers, service users and indeed greater good of a somewhat cohesive society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124593#Comment_120124593

Seriously if you can't see the difference between British conservative party and FG/FF I really don't know what to say.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126019#Comment_120126019

I can see a difference of course but my point still stands economically both FG and FF are right to centre right. They were cheerleaders for austerity. They are the ones responsible for investing in public services. The housing situation has a hell of a lot to do with FF pretty much abolishing county councils abilities to build housing in the early 2000s. The real problems in this country are chronic underinvestment in public services from right wing economic policy over many decades.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126019#Comment_120126019

So FF/FG did alot similar to the Tories in relation to social housing and privatisation but are nothing like them? If you remember back to when the Tories were more centrist under Cameron I don't they were that unlike FF under Bertie in their social/economic policies. I would agree that the only undisputed right-wing party would be the PD's.

welfare should definitely not be easily available to European citizens that come into the country but FF/FG could also solve a lot of problems if they did more in social housing/ affordable housing schemes.

Socially I think multiculturism is good for Ireland, I've worked with alot of foreigners in various jobs and it seems some of the best workers are those that are willing to emigrate from their countries and take that risk of going somewhere unfamiliar.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123180#Comment_120123180

What do you suggest ? Book up every hotel, and allow more of them to stay in 3/4 star comfort at the taxpayers expense ?

an immigration offence is an offence, breaking any law is an offence…not an admin fûckup or oversight. Not for a staging or direct provision facility …. They committed crimes.

Also…More than 10% of asylum seekers who arrived in Ireland in 2018 in search of international refuge / protection failed to show up for their first official interview and never entered the refugee system… illegal… so the government/state and our people need to be of the ability to investigate, detain and deport as necessary… detention is a critical and responsible activity in the pathway to their removal..

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127392#Comment_120127392

They committed crimes.

Did you not read why it’s not appropriate to detain them in prisons? Because they haven’t committed a criminal offence.

What do I suggest? Same as is already done, no need to waste money on detention centres when it’s not as though illegal immigrants are going anywhere any time soon when they’re trying to stay in the country. It doesn’t remove from the authorities their ability to investigate, detain, deport and so on. It’s why it’s cheaper to have illegal immigrants remove themselves from the State voluntarily than have to go looking for them.

Of course that does raise the possibility of illegal immigrants on the run from the authorities being hidden by their relatives, friends and indeed employers, but it’s the responsibility of the DOJ to address that issue by giving the authorities more resources to carry out investigations and so on.

I’m reminded of a young lad I met, couple of years back now, who was on the run from the authorities, turned out I knew his old man well (apple didn’t fall far from the tree 😁), but he’d himself worked up into an even greater state than any actual punishment he’d face for committing the actual criminal offence he had done. He took some convincing to hand himself into the authorities is all. There’s no reason this information couldn’t be made available to the general public and immigrant communities.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127431#Comment_120127431

I disagree…

You must comply with Irish laws, and you must follow any instructions that you are given by the IPO or the Minister for Justice. This may include a requirement to stay in a particular area or to report to an immigration officer or Garda station.

Keep your address up to date

You must tell the IPO if you change your address. You should do this even if you are moved to another accommodation centre provided by IPAS. “Failure to do so is an offence under the International Protection Act 2015.”

It’s an offence to breach the act.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127449#Comment_120127449

What do you disagree with exactly? That it’s not a criminal offence, or that people should be informed that it’s not a criminal offence and they’re not going to be prosecuted as though it is?

Illegal immigration, however it happens, be it through people smuggling, immigration dodging, overstaying their visas, whatever, needs to continue to be tackled, but treating it as a criminal offence is just a heavy-handed and IMO counterproductive approach, as people if they imagine the worst possible sanctions simply won’t come forward and will continue to remain illegal and subject to all manner of exploitation and abuse.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126292#Comment_120126292

Austerity wasn't a fooking choice and the Greeks for all their waffle found that out.

Austerity was necessary because public spending was too high for the revenue coming in and most especially when the revenues from the bubble economy of credit fueled retail and construction disappeared.

And do you know who increased public spending in the first place?

It was FF.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126956#Comment_120126956

ok Tories

anti EU.

anti union - just look at thatcher and look at them now

anti welfare - see their moves to cut welfare

Irish privatisation

• basically Sucra Eireann, Eircom, Aer Lingus and the corporation/council housing.
• Yes healthcare had long had VHI as public was so poorly funded and then added more private hospitals like Beacon, Whitfield, Galway, Hermitage (a lot could be laid at feet of PDs

UK privatisation.

• British telecom, Cable and Wireless
• British Gas, BP
• British Airways
• British Steel, British Coal
• power grid, power generation
• rail network, rail carriers
• water/sewage
• Aircraft manufacturing
• Car manufacturing
• housing
• Royal Mail

Granted one could ask why some of these companies or their precursors had been nationalised in the first place.

Also New Labour were not averse to privitisation either.

If FF were like Tories how come they didn't fire any staff when they amalgamated health boards to form HSE, even though massive duplication and great chance to cut numbers.

Actually look at how numbers working in health service mushroomed over the years in Ireland, all under FF and FG predominantly.

They didn't ever take on unions unlike Tories.

BTW no matter how good our public services why do we want to import people that add NOTHING to our country, except put a drain on public services and create social problems as per the experience of countries around Europe.

If someone has a skill or profession that is needed then let them apply for visa and come here to work.

Kyokushin Grappler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126956#Comment_120126956

Multi-racial/ Multi-Ethnic =/= Multiculturalism. Multiculturalism harms society more than it helps. Immigrants refusing to assimilate harms them more than it helps them. Refusing to learn our language/s and adapt to our laws and cultures does them no good and then the establishment of ethnic ghettos does nothing to help anyone and it creates more distrust towards them.

No. Our Govts should be taking a hard line stance against this "This is our language. This is our laws. This is our culture. We don't care if it offends you or not. If you want to live like you do in your own Country then. by all means stay there."

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134345#Comment_120134345

Do you think there is a problem of people not learning the language, respecting our laws? If so how widespread do you consider it?

Also what constitutes our culture has changed quite dramatically over the last few years with regard to such issues as abortion and gay rights so you see even Irish people such as Enoch Burke pushing against this new non- catholic church dominated culture.

Kyokushin Grappler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134682#Comment_120134682

People not learning our language might not be a problem here in Ireland at the moment [it certainly is in US and other Countries that had mass unlimited immigration for decades], but it will be the longer this continues. It's foolishness and arrogance to think we'll avoid the problems of mass immigration while others have succumbed to them.