Cycling mechanics & qualifications

swarlb

I'm curious about the bicycle mechanics course. I'm a retired car mechanic. 40 odd years and a few months. More courses than I care to remember....including several certs for welding, arc, tig, mig and gas

I raced bikes from the mid 70's, and still 'potter' about a bit..
During the late 70's and 80's (as I had a habit of fixing bikes for my neighbours and team mates) I was bike 'mechanic' on races life the Ras, Tour of Ireland, and many more...
I can build wheels, repair frames....anything from adjusting brakes to re-stitching tubulars.

A few years back there was a sign in a local shop.... 'Mechanic Wanted' so I went in thinking this might be handy for a few days a weeks
I was surprised to hear that my experience was of no use, because I didn't have a 'City and Guilds' in bicycle mechanics...

I had a quick look at the course Rothar is offering for €800
Not to be disparaging about the course...but apart from the 'customer service' module, my youngest (she's 12) would be more than competent to tackle everything else listed. I was probably about 15 myself by the time my father had taught me everything on this list.
Can anyone tell me when being a bicycle mechanic became part of the City and Guilds curriculum ?

Unit 1: Introduction, Health & Safety, Parts of a Bike, Workshop Etiquette, Tyres, Tubes & Puncture Repair
Unit 2: Remove and Replace a Cycle Rim Brake Assembly
Unit 3: Transmission - Remove & Replace a Cycle Gear Assembly
Unit 4: Service Cycle Hubs, cup & cone and sealed cartridge
Unit 5: Servicing Headset Assemblies including frame preparation
Unit 6: Service Bottom Bracket & Cranks including frame prep
Unit 7: Wheel Building
Unit 8: Wheel Building Cont’d
Unit 9: Augment a Cycle & Systematic Cycle Check
Unit 10: Strip and Rebuild, Full change of a cycle frame

Non compulsory modules (covered if time allows; acknowledged by a Rothar certificate):
Unit 11: Disc brake Adjustment (mechanical and hydraulic)
Unit 12: Bike fitting and finishing (Pedals, Saddles and Seatposts, Handlebars and wrapping)
Unit 13: Derailer Hanger ID and Straightening
Unit 14: Customer Service

8valve

swarlb wrote: »

I'm curious about the bicycle mechanics course. I'm a retired car mechanic. 40 odd years and a few months. More courses than I care to remember....including several certs for welding, arc, tig, mig and gas

I raced bikes from the mid 70's, and still 'potter' about a bit..
During the late 70's and 80's (as I had a habit of fixing bikes for my neighbours and team mates) I was bike 'mechanic' on races life the Ras, Tour of Ireland, and many more...
I can build wheels, repair frames....anything from adjusting brakes to re-stitching tubulars.

A few years back there was a sign in a local shop.... 'Mechanic Wanted' so I went in thinking this might be handy for a few days a weeks
I was surprised to hear that my experience was of no use, because I didn't have a 'City and Guilds' in bicycle mechanics...

I had a quick look at the course Rothar is offering for €800
Not to be disparaging about the course...but apart from the 'customer service' module, my youngest (she's 12) would be more than competent to tackle everything else listed. I was probably about 15 myself by the time my father had taught me everything on this list.
Can anyone tell me when being a bicycle mechanic became part of the City and Guilds curriculum ?

Unit 1: Introduction, Health & Safety, Parts of a Bike, Workshop Etiquette, Tyres, Tubes & Puncture Repair
Unit 2: Remove and Replace a Cycle Rim Brake Assembly
Unit 3: Transmission - Remove & Replace a Cycle Gear Assembly
Unit 4: Service Cycle Hubs, cup & cone and sealed cartridge
Unit 5: Servicing Headset Assemblies including frame preparation
Unit 6: Service Bottom Bracket & Cranks including frame prep
Unit 7: Wheel Building
Unit 8: Wheel Building Cont’d
Unit 9: Augment a Cycle & Systematic Cycle Check
Unit 10: Strip and Rebuild, Full change of a cycle frame

Non compulsory modules (covered if time allows; acknowledged by a Rothar certificate):
Unit 11: Disc brake Adjustment (mechanical and hydraulic)
Unit 12: Bike fitting and finishing (Pedals, Saddles and Seatposts, Handlebars and wrapping)
Unit 13: Derailer Hanger ID and Straightening
Unit 14: Customer Service

I think the planned outcome of the course is to give a ''baseline'' in mechanical competency, which provides certification that you can perform certain tasks on a variety of bike components, with a required timeline.


It then allows you to find a job within the industry and grow your knowledge and experience, or perhaps expand into a certain specialty area eg e-bikes, high-end road (competition), or competition mtb etc


If you draw a comparison to auto mechanics, you do your four years as an apprentice, which qualifies you to work in a garage to a prescribed level of competency with associated task timelines; you then grow your knowledge with further training and/or experience.


I've worked in bike shops where, in a line of customer bikes left in for repair, you could have a toyshop-bought cheap steel child's bike that has spent the winter out in the rain, in for a pair of rusty stabilisers to be cut off and the bike made roadworthy; the next bike in line is a carbon road bike with full internal cabling/wiring, in for a groupset change; next could be a high-end mtb in for full suspension service/rebuild; next could be one of those yummy-mummy sports prams, with pneumatic tyres, for a puncture repair. Next is usually a line of hybrids, all with bent derailleur hangers, dry inner cables and ''clicky gears''...!!

swarlb

My point was more on the line of 'when did repairing bikes become a trade'

What does a 'qualified' bike mechanic expect to earn ?? Is it a career that you can start off at the bottom, and then as you progress you can expect your earning to increase as your 'skill level' increases.
The garage I initially worked for in the 70's opened up a bike shop and distributors in Dublin in the mid 80'. As I had an interest in bikes I ran the place for several years. We imported bikes from Europe, and were agents for Campag, Vittoria and Suntour. We also got in at the start of the BMX craze, and distributed thousands of the things around the country. The bikes came in semi assembled and we put together in a place just off the NCR in Dublin.
We also imported Fiamme rims, and I spent many hours building wheels for road and track.
My point was... none of that on my CV was of any use, as I didn't have a 'city and guilds' in bike mechanics.
When did this become a 'requirement'. It certainly was not around back then or we would have heard of it when setting up the business.
Safe to say,it follows, NONE of the bicycle shops in Dublin, or indeed Ireland would have had qualified staff at the time.
And why is the course being run, in what looks to me like a bicycle shop. I had occasion to upgrade a pipe welding cert recently (just before Covid) and I did it in Ballyfermot where 30 plus years previously I'd completed my engineering certs.

triggermortis

I think the point you're missing is that there is now a recognised cert you can get to prove your competence in bicycle maintenance, that companies or business owners like people to have. It doesn't mean you can't do the job, but it removes some of the risk a business would take in hiring someone who doesn't have it. TBH it sounds like they missed out based on your experience and knowledge, but that's how it often goes I'm afraid

beauf

swarlb wrote: »

...

A few years back there was a sign in a local shop.... 'Mechanic Wanted' so I went in thinking this might be handy for a few days a weeks
I was surprised to hear that my experience was of no use, because I didn't have a 'City and Guilds' in bicycle mechanics...

...

That's not a problem with the cert that's a problem with whom ever was hiring. The world has become with obsessed with formal certification over common sense.

Where I work if going for promotion (basically a raise) for the job you've been doing for years. You have to fill in forms that take a few days to fill in and are so badly designed it's torture. Then you might have one or more interviews usually by people who don't what you do, and do not have the skillset or experience to evaluate you.

You either play the game or just work somewhere that isn't run by people who do this.

beauf

Besides with your experience you don't need to work anywhere you could just set up on your own.

magicbastarder

not beyond the bounds of possibility that the requirement could be related to insurance.
for example, if your employee managed to take his eye out with a torque wrench, the insurance company may do that slow intake of breath followed by 'you mean you were employing someone to do a job who didn't have the industry standard qualification to do that job?'

swarlb

magicbastarder wrote: »

not beyond the bounds of possibility that the requirement could be related to insurance.
for example, if your employee managed to take his eye out with a torque wrench, the insurance company may do that slow intake of breath followed by 'you mean you were employing someone to do a job who didn't have the industry standard qualification to do that job?'

That was my thinking as well... which made me think there was not much point in operating a 'bicycle repair business' myself. Doing the course and gaining the qualification is not really the issue, although at 60+ year of age I doubt if I could sit quietly while someone showed me how to fix a puncture.
I remember years ago when I was a kid, and struggling to remove a tyre, using my newly acquired tyre wrenches when my dad grabbed the thing off me in frustration and removed and replaced the tyre with his bare hands....
I've never used tyre levers since...
I packed in the motor trade simply because I tired of the physical effort involved, and fixing bikes seemed a relaxing way of spending a few hours a day.
Oddly I happened to be in the shop recently, and while waiting in the queue, the man in front of me was quite agitated at being quoted €12 for a puncture repair, and that it would take 'a few days'....
Obviously things have changed, but I know enough about business that repairing bikes in a small town would not give me a decent return unless I was selling bikes as well.... and trying to compete with a local Halfords or Smiths is a waste of time.

beauf

swarlb wrote: »

...
Obviously things have changed, but I know enough about business that repairing bikes in a small town would not give me a decent return unless I was selling bikes as well.... and trying to compete with a local Halfords or Smiths is a waste of time...

You're thinking about this wrong if you have Smyth's and Halfords in your head. That said I've started using Halfords for repairs because they are far more professional to deal with than the LBS for must things.

magicbastarder

swarlb wrote: »

Oddly I happened to be in the shop recently, and while waiting in the queue, the man in front of me was quite agitated at being quoted €12 for a puncture repair, and that it would take 'a few days'....

well, these are not normal times, someone mentioned in a different thread that there's six week waiting list in his LBS.

8valve

swarlb wrote: »

Doing the course and gaining the qualification is not really the issue, although at 60+ year of age I doubt if I could sit quietly while someone showed me how to fix a puncture.
.

I fully understand and sympathise; I have been fettling bikes since my teens in the 80 and was by far the most experienced in the group during my course. I spent much of the two weeks almost as an ''assistant teacher'', helping/guiding lads who had never taken the wheel off a bike previously....this served to keep things moving along at a decent pace and I got home from Dublin a day early!


One of the main reasons I did it was to attain the cert, as I was running a bike recycling/rehoming community initiative and didn't want some opportunist suing me when they fell off the bike I gave them for free! I was able to say that every bike that left the workshop was completed/safety checked by a qualified bike mechanic.

swarlb

8valve wrote: »

I fully understand and sympathise; I have been fettling bikes since my teens in the 80 and was by far the most experienced in the group during my course. I spent much of the two weeks almost as an ''assistant teacher'', helping/guiding lads who had never taken the wheel off a bike previously....this served to keep things moving along at a decent pace and I got home from Dublin a day early!


One of the main reasons I did it was to attain the cert, as I was running a bike recycling/rehoming community initiative and didn't want some opportunist suing me when they fell off the bike I gave them for free! I was able to say that every bike that left the workshop was completed/safety checked by a qualified bike mechanic.

I've had qualified mechanics working under me over the years that I wouldn't trust to inflate a tyre properly. And I've encountered self taught 'enthusiasts' who could strip and rebuild a gearbox on a kitchen table. I caught a mechanic once Googling a 'repair' on a car still under warranty because he hadn't the patience to follow the workshop manual procedure.
You'd be shocked at what goes on in garages and indeed Dealerships, mostly because the pressure to get work out and money in...
Quite a lot of lads 'drift' into motor mechanics, not actually liking what they do, but having no other option, and ending up hating it, mostly because of pressure in having to finish off jobs quickly.
As I mentioned earlier, what surprised me was that I would never have considered bicycle mechanics as a 'career' option.

8valve

swarlb wrote: »

I've had qualified mechanics working under me over the years that I wouldn't trust to inflate a tyre properly. And I've encountered self taught 'enthusiasts' who could strip and rebuild a gearbox on a kitchen table. I caught a mechanic once Googling a 'repair' on a car still under warranty because he hadn't the patience to follow the workshop manual procedure.
You'd be shocked at what goes on in garages and indeed Dealerships, mostly because the pressure to get work out and money in...
Quite a lot of lads 'drift' into motor mechanics, not actually liking what they do, but having no other option, and ending up hating it, mostly because of pressure in having to finish off jobs quickly.
As I mentioned earlier, what surprised me was that I would never have considered bicycle mechanics as a 'career' option.

Its big business these days, with the resurgence in cycling popularity globally; and not just since the pandemic.


With the current government formation ****show thats going on, one light at the end of the tunnnel is the Green party negotiating €360m annually for cycling and walking infrastructure; this can only be a good thing to get more bums on saddles!


unfortunately, the wage levels haven't risen with the cycling surge; 10 quid an hour net is the average.

swarlb

8valve wrote: »

Its big business these days, with the resurgence in cycling popularity globally; and not just since the pandemic.


With the current government formation ****show thats going on, one light at the end of the tunnnel is the Green party negotiating €360m annually for cycling and walking infrastructure; this can only be a good thing to get more bums on saddles!


unfortunately, the wage levels haven't risen with the cycling surge; 10 quid an hour net is the average.

Emm... I cannot see too many young fellas sitting the Leaving thinking to themselves that this would be a decent career.
What shops would be better off doing if the requirement is to have the certification, is to offer to pay for it for prospective employees.
€800 could be a lot for a young fella (or girl) out looking for a job, but I'm sure a business could either afford it or get a rebate through a job enterprise scheme or something.
As regards wages, is there a 'union' that bicycle mechanics could latch onto. It's all very well insisting on city and guilds for a mechanic but there has to be a value put upon skillset and experience.
I have certs for arc, mig, tig, gas and pipe welding. Pipe welding is probably the most lucrative, and a good pipe welder can almost name his price.
If cycle sales were to take off with incentives from the greens it's only fair that profits be passed down to those who keep the business alive.

beauf

People on this forum are an exception. But most of the bikes people use are treated as if they are disposable.

Look at adverts.ie a lot of bikes there a rusting broken wrecks, the only time they ever saw oil was the day they left the factory.

Peoples computers are the same. They are so cheap they aren't willing to pay someones time to fix them when they break.
Which is a catch 22 because it become nonviable to work at repairing them.

swarlb

beauf wrote: »

People on this forum are an exception. But most of the bikes people use are treated as if they are disposable.

Look at adverts.ie a lot of bikes there a rusting broken wrecks, the only time they ever saw oil was the day they left the factory.

Peoples computers are the same. They are so cheap they aren't willing to pay someones time to fix them when they break.
Which is a catch 22 because it become nonviable to work at repairing them.

It's no different with cars... my missus has an 08 BMW. 400k, I've replaced quite a lot of it at this stage, but it's a decent car, and she likes it. She scraped a rear door and sill recently, a few scratches but enough to cut through the top layer of lacquer. You cannot 'polish out' this type of paintwork.
Anyway out of curiosity I had it assessed, €1000 and some change was the price. The consensus was "It's not worth fixing"
In the end I had it done by another "aul fella" like myself, who did it over a weekend for €200.
I imagine it would be very difficult to convince a mother of a few kids to hand over money to 'service' a bike, while it might be a whole lot different dealing with a guy who commutes in the city, to and from a high tech job with Google.

swarlb

This is my bike, frame bought from a friend who worked in Raleigh on the Kylemore Road in Dublin. 79/80 I think. I had an MKM before that (which I regret selling) and an orange Merckx before that. Mostly early Campag, I broke a crank on the original Record chainset, I can't remember which Campag crank is on it now, late 80's. Mavic pedals and hubs, Mavic rims, Cinelli bars and stem.

8valve

swarlb wrote: »

This is my bike, frame bought from a friend who worked in Raleigh on the Kylemore Road in Dublin. 79/80 I think. I had an MKM before that (which I regret selling) and an orange Merckx before that. Mostly early Campag, I broke a crank on the original Record chainset, I can't remember which Campag crank is on it now, late 80's. Mavic pedals and hubs, Mavic rims, Cinelli bars and stem.

That's just class.

magicbastarder

mod note - i've moved this out discussion of the ads forum as it had long since veered away from a thread which could be considered an ad. feel free to continue the discussion here

tonytiger81

Are there any other courses run apart from the Rothar one?

Omega28

I gotta jump in here.

What's the best way to learn how to fix bikes? By doing a C&Gs course or just finding an old frame and building one from scratch?

cletus

I'd say just by doing each job on your bike as it arises.

Need new cables? Replace them yourself
Gears skipping? Index them yourself.

As you do each job, buy the tools you need associated with that job. That way, you build up a series of skills and the tools to go along with it.

Once you're comfortable doing most of the various maintenance jobs, a build or a strip and rebuild is great fun.

magicbastarder

if you're a beginner, there are some courses you can do on basic bike maintenance, but as cletus mentions, many of these are the sort of thing you can teach yourself. plenty of videos online to assist you, too.

Omega28

Thanks guys.

I have an old Trek frame from the early 00s that I would love to fix up. It needs new cabling, chain, cassette, shifter, chain rings, crank, bar tape. The list goes on with this old bike.

I might see if I can pick up a bike tool set online.

cletus

Omega28 wrote: »

Thanks guys.

I have an old Trek frame from the early 00s that I would love to fix up. It needs new cabling, chain, cassette, shifter, chain rings, crank, bar tape. The list goes on with this old bike.

I might see if I can pick up a bike tool set online.

Buying a kit can be expensive. I don't know what sort of tool you already own, but buying bicycle brand versions of normal tools like Allen keys is a good way to waste money. I'd buy individual tools as required

Omega28

I pulled this frame from my friend's skip. I thought he was crazy to just throw it in a skip consider the frame is decent.

Where would I begin on a project like this with little mechanical experience? It seems a shame to just toss it away.

Omega28

Trek Frame

TheBoyConor

Recognised by whom? Unless it is a QQI qualification, then it isn't of any worth and the courses are just a commercial product being sold.
Fine if it is just for upskilling and learning about bikes but it isn't a qualification in any real sense. City and guilds aren't worth the paper they're written on. it is all a closed shop of them offering courses to their own members. they have hardly any external recognition.

tonytiger81

Omega28 wrote: »

I pulled this frame from my friend's skip. I thought he was crazy to just throw it in a skip consider the frame is decent.

Where would I begin on a project like this with little mechanical experience? It seems a shame to just toss it away.

Do what my older brother used to do with my toys: take it apart to see how it works then try to put it back together again.

The frame does look to be in decent nick. Remove the parts - clean them, lube if needed and reassemble. You'll probably need to replace the cables, chain and a few other bits but most of that will clean up nicely. Good little project.

Tony04

Post on the adverts section here and see what used parts you can source, to help with your build.

cletus

Omega28 wrote: »

I pulled this frame from my friend's skip. I thought he was crazy to just throw it in a skip consider the frame is decent.

Where would I begin on a project like this with little mechanical experience? It seems a shame to just toss it away.

Make sure to bag and label the components. So all headset parts and bearings go in one bag, bottom bracket goes in another etc. That way whatever can be reused won't end up in a jumble

Omega28

The crank /bottom is knackered. There's also no wheels, cassette, chain, shifters and the handle bars have seen better days

cletus

Omega28 wrote: »

The crank /bottom is knackered. There's also no wheels, cassette, chain, shifters and the handle bars have seen better days

Ok. Just be aware that buying all the necessary parts could become expensive. Look to go second hand if you can (the bicycle adverts forum here is good for that)

Check out Park Tool videos on YouTube. They will have a really detailed video on every job you'll want to do

Tony04

Bottom bracket cables chain and cassette are all wear and tear parts and can be replaced with new parts cheaply. I'd reccomend going used for the rest of the groupset cranks, brakes, derailleurs, shifters etc. As shimano makes all the top end parts serviceable and can last for a long time.
Wheels would be more diffucult as on rim brake bikes they're actually a wear and tear part so if you manage to find something second hand that has little wear go for it.
I would not go for the cheapest tools in the market as they're cheap for a reason. Generally park tools can be overpriced and therefore I'd only buy there stuff sometimes but stuff like there cable cutters are good and last a really long time. And then obviously you can sometimes can get cheaper better quality generic tools from motoring tool manufacturers etc. Personally all my generic tools are nautical tools bought from my local marine hardware as that's what's local to me and I also get marine grease from there which is cheaper and as good for most stuff than bike greases.

The other thing is when your replacing bearings try and get a good quality bearing rather than the cheap stuff you'll get from your lbs i.e try and get stuff from NTN, skf etc.

cletus

+1 on the tools. There are many reputable brands out there. A good portion of my hand tools comes from Halfords Advanced range, which can be got on sale regularly

2011

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Recognised by whom? Unless it is a QQI qualification, then it isn't of any worth and the courses are just a commercial product being sold.

This is a very good point.

I remember (many moons ago) spending a many months completing a full time a City & Guilds course (in an unrelated area) only to find out that nobody had heard of it let alone recognise it.

swarlb

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Recognised by whom? Unless it is a QQI qualification, then it isn't of any worth and the courses are just a commercial product being sold.
Fine if it is just for upskilling and learning about bikes but it isn't a qualification in any real sense. City and guilds aren't worth the paper they're written on. it is all a closed shop of them offering courses to their own members. they have hardly any external recognition.

Why do you say City and Guilds aren't worth the paper they're written on ? I needed one for a job I applied for recently.
I don't understand what you mean by it being a 'closed shop'... that makes no sense whatsoever.

2011

swarlb wrote: »

Why do you say City and Guilds aren't worth the paper they're written on ? I needed one for a job I applied for recently.

I would agree that City & Guilds have some excellent courses that are well recognized but as per my last post this does not apply to all of their courses.