New government

djmc

Just watched the news there and there was talk of an anti rural government. Anyone else have thoughts on this. The worry is on the likes of raising of a carbon tax and grants for electric bikes. An agenda to ban fur farms and live shipping of calves.

bonaparte2

Don't have much problem with a lot of what's proposed.

kk.man

djmc wrote: »

Just watched the news there and there was talk of an anti rural government. Anyone else have thoughts on this. The worry is on the likes of raising of a carbon tax and grants for electric bikes. An agenda to ban fur farms and live shipping of calves.

If they ban the live shipping of calves the Greens can kill the excess themselves in 3 years time and see how they get on with that.

bonaparte2

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/programme-for-government-agriculture-agreement-finalised/

Be afraid. The Green politicians don't have a farming background. They understand nothing about the Countryside. I may have problems with modern agricultural practices but these zealots understand nothing and digest dogma as fact.

kk.man

kk.man wrote: »

If they ban the live shipping of calves the Greens can kill the excess themselves in 3 years time and see how they get on with that.

They haven't got their ban on live exports.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Be afraid. The Green politicians don't have a farming background. They understand nothing about the Countryside. I may have problems with modern agricultural practices but these zealots understand nothing and digest dogma as fact.

Never a truer word spoken. During the election the Greens had a big ag press conference that Ryan just happened to not be at. Their ag spokesperson is away with the fairies. One of the prime solutions was farmers to sell at farmers markets. Then in the next breath how the FM in her constituency really wasn't very popular.

addaword

Deleted User wrote: »

Be afraid. The Green politicians don't have a farming background. They understand nothing about the Countryside. I may have problems with modern agricultural practices but these zealots understand nothing and digest dogma as fact.

Reminds me of how the Greens messed up the car market about 12 years ago by making medium and large petrol cars expensive to tax, saying they were bad for the environment, so everyone bought diesels and the secondhand value of petrol cars fell to very little. Then not too long ago it transpired that was the wrong call, it was actually diesel which was the dirty polluter.

ruwithme

Surely all this is a chewing gum weld of a job to get us through a period of time?? if covid hadn't happened another election would have happened what ever that may or may not have changed.

i can't see anything radical happening with fg and ff in the bed too. sinners would be left to rear the hay for next election (if they know how?)

kk.man

addaword wrote: »

Reminds me of how the Greens messed up the car market about 12 years ago by making medium and large petrol cars expensive to tax, saying they were bad for the environment, so everyone bought diesels and the secondhand value of petrol cars fell to very little. Then not too long ago it transpired that was the wrong call, it was actually diesel which was the dirty polluter.

And what about Ryan driving out of the Dáil Éireann in a VW van with enough space to bring a school tour

dmakc

I wouldn't worry about the greens pandering notions. Eamon Ryan might get a national audience 10 times per year, and makes a complete tit of himself on at least 8 of those occasions. I can only imagine how non-seriously he's taken behind the scenes daily by FFG and even his own party of virtue-signalling clowns are tired of him. If they do agree to go in, I can see them collecting their pay cheque and zipping it.

_Brian

Can’t see the wider Green Party voting to accept the compromises like not getting a ban on live shipping.

sinnbox

kk.man wrote: »

And what about Ryan driving out of the Dáil Éireann in a VW van with enough space to bring a school tour

im fairly sure his son is disabled so the van is probally justified out of necessity

ganmo

sinnbox wrote: »

im fairly sure his son is disabled so the van is probally justified out of necessity

Autistic for sure, not so sure about physical disabilities

endainoz

I agree with most of what the greens have to say, apart from the reduction of the national herd which is counter productive on beef farms. I'd certainly be ok with a cap of dairy herds alright, there out of control.

I could be wrong on this but dosent the deputy leader come from a farming background? I think Ryan is a muppet to be honest, and as said here already he does make a fool of himself quite often. The speech about the window box salads was absolutely cringe worthy.

The greens want to ban the importing of fracked gas and ban oil and gas exploration from our waters. Can't see how anyone would have issue with that?

The main changes coming to agriculture in the immediate future is coming from Europe and not the greens anyway, but I'm sure they'll get blamed for it.

endainoz

endainoz wrote: »

I agree with most of what the greens have to say, apart from the reduction of the national herd which is counter productive on beef farms. I'd certainly be ok with a cap of dairy herds alright, there out of control.

I could be wrong on this but dosent the deputy leader come from a farming background? I think Ryan is a muppet to be honest, and as said here already he does make a fool of himself quite often. The speech about the window box salads was absolutely cringe worthy.

The greens want to ban the importing of fracked gas and ban oil and gas exploration from our waters. Can't see how anyone would have issue with that?

The main changes coming to agriculture in the immediate future is coming from Europe and not the greens anyway, but I'm sure they'll get blamed for it.

You need to understand the importance of security of supply to the sovereignty of the State. Prohibition of Gas exploration in Irish waters is harmful to us.
Inability to receive Gas from multiple vendors is harmful to us and would leave us susceptible to influence by other Imperialist powers who do not have our best interests at heart.

Mooooo

Greens need 60% plus I think. The amount in fianna fail not happy with Martin could be underestimated too. Government will form I think but I wouldn't be surprised if ff or green don't ratify

endainoz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You need to understand the importance of security of supply to the sovereignty of the State. Prohibition of Gas exploration in Irish waters is harmful to us.
Inability to receive Gas from multiple vendors is harmful to us and would leave us susceptible to influence by other Imperialist powers who do not have our best interests at heart.

We make nothing from our natural resources, you can thank Ray Burke for that.

Aravo

Mooooo wrote: »

Greens need 60% plus I think. The amount in fianna fail not happy with Martin could be underestimated too. Government will form I think but I wouldn't be surprised if ff or green don't ratify

Some of the new green TDs got in as SF only ran one candidate and the greens were transfer friendly. The same happened to a lesser extent with FF holding seats as SF only ran one candidate. FF and the greens don't want another election. MM will not lead FF if there was another election. The only ones to gain with anothed election will be SF and to a lesser extent FG.

How quick realistically could the greens start getting their idiotic policies enacted?

Im very worried about what the greens might try to bring in around planning. I’m going to be applying for planning for a build on the home farm in the next 2 months but I’d be hopeful they couldn’t have anything put in place that quick?

endainoz

Mooooo wrote: »

Greens need 60% plus I think. The amount in fianna fail not happy with Martin could be underestimated too. Government will form I think but I wouldn't be surprised if ff or green don't ratify

I'd say it'll pass pretty easily, those two parties are aching to get into government again.

endainoz

Zeke Stale Stewardess wrote: »

How quick realistically could the greens start getting their idiotic policies enacted?

Im very worried about what the greens might try to being in around planning. I’m going to be applying for planning for a build on the home farm in the next 2 months but I’d be hopeful they couldn’t have anything put in place that quick?

I wouldn't be too worried, planning is a county council issue rather than a government one. I'm not sure what "idiotic policy" you are referring to.

Mooooo

Aravo wrote: »

Some of the new green TDs got in as SF only ran one candidate and the greens were transfer friendly. The same happened to a lesser extent with FF holding seats as SF only ran one candidate. FF and the greens don't want another election. MM will not lead FF if there was another election. The only ones to gain with anothed election will be SF and to a lesser extent FG.

If it was just the parliamentary party members voting that would be the case but it's party membership being polled so not as clear cut. FG are weighted towards the parliamentary party so no such issues there. Could be wrong and they may pass easy

Siamsa Sessions

Whatever about the Greens, the bigger issue is the divide between rural and urban Ireland. The leaders of FG, FF, Greens, and SF are from Dublin (I know Micheal Martin is from Cork, but he's been in Dublin his whole political life).

They're all more concerned about Google and Facebook workers than farmers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no member of the Green party and I think Eamon Ryan is a loudmouth that the media thinks is colourful and gets people's attention.

But he's not the big issue. FF and FG wouldn't even entertain him if they weren't also more concerned with Dublin and urban voters than rural Ireland (small) and the farming community (smaller again).

The days are gone when FG represented big farmers and FF represented small farmers.

yosemitesam1

Zeke Stale Stewardess wrote: »

How quick realistically could the greens start getting their idiotic policies enacted?

Im very worried about what the greens might try to being in around planning. I’m going to be applying for planning for a build on the home farm in the next 2 months but I’d be hopeful they couldn’t have anything put in place that quick?

I think when the sh1t starts to really hit the fan over the next 6 months with permanent job losses and it becomes clear that the economy is in a very bad way, that there'll be no appetite for the "green" agenda.
What could have passed a year ago won't have anywhere near the support as job losses and money worries come to the fore

ganmo

endainoz wrote: »

I agree with most of what the greens have to say, apart from the reduction of the national herd which is counter productive on beef farms. I'd certainly be ok with a cap of dairy herds alright, there out of control.

I could be wrong on this but dosent the deputy leader come from a farming background? I think Ryan is a muppet to be honest, and as said here already he does make a fool of himself quite often. The speech about the window box salads was absolutely cringe worthy.

The greens want to ban the importing of fracked gas and ban oil and gas exploration from our waters. Can't see how anyone would have issue with that?

The main changes coming to agriculture in the immediate future is coming from Europe and not the greens anyway, but I'm sure they'll get blamed for it.

They dont care where the reduction comes from as long as they can point at a number and claim it as a win.
Is Catherine Martin their deputy leader? She doesnt know the difference between sheep **** and cow ****. There was a candidate from Carlow from a farm but I don't know if she got elected.

endainoz

endainoz wrote: »

I'm not sure what "idiotic policy" you are referring to.

Pretty much every single thing the greens stand for I would oppose. They will try to stop people building their homes in rural areas, they will try to stop vital infrastructure such as the M20 to cork and the Galway ring road, they will make scapegoats out of farmers, their idiotic 7% reduction per year that is fit for nothing but the bin, spending a load on money on public transport and cycling at the detriment of roads etc etc etc.

endainoz

Zeke Stale Stewardess wrote: »

Pretty much every single thing the greens stand for I would oppose. They will try to stop people building their homes in rural areas, they will try to stop vital infrastructure such as the M20 to cork and the Galway ring road, they will make scapegoats out of farmers, their idiotic 7% reduction per year that is fit for nothing but the bin, spending a load on money on public transport and cycling at the detriment of roads etc etc etc.

Again, planning applications are county council issues. Have the brown envelope at the ready, you'll be grand. That system hasn't changed much in the past 30 years. I don't see where they want to divert money for road infrastructure. Most of those projects are signed off with EU money anyway, when they were in last time I don't remember seeing roads go into disrepair?

It'll be funny when farmers get paid for green initiatives and for carbon sequesteration how quick they will change their tune. Apart from the intensive lads of course, who are in line for a stinging alright. But again all that is based on CAP reform not on green policy. They want to end direct provision aswell, you hardly disagree with that?

endainoz

endainoz wrote: »

Again, planning applications are county council issues. Have the brown envelope at the ready, you'll be grand. That system hasn't changed much in the past 30 years. I don't see where they want to divert money for road infrastructure. Most of those projects are signed off with EU money anyway, when they were in last time I don't remember seeing roads go into disrepair?

It'll be funny when farmers get paid for green initiatives and for carbon sequesteration how quick they will change their tune. Apart from the intensive lads of course, who are in line for a stinging alright. But again all that is based on CAP reform not on green policy. They want to end direct provision aswell, you hardly disagree with that?

I'm in favour of brief direct provision with speedy decisions.

Castlekeeper

Zeke Stale Stewardess wrote: »

Pretty much every single thing the greens stand for I would oppose. They will try to stop people building their homes in rural areas, they will try to stop vital infrastructure such as the M20 to cork and the Galway ring road, they will make scapegoats out of farmers, their idiotic 7% reduction per year that is fit for nothing but the bin, spending a load on money on public transport and cycling at the detriment of roads etc etc etc.

The 7% reduction is from the international Paris Agreement and is already signed up to by our Govt through Enda some years back, it has nothing to do with the Green Party but with governments from around the world.

endainoz

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The 7% reduction is from the international Paris Agreement and is already signed up to by our Govt through Enda some years back, it has nothing to do with the Green Party but with governments from around the world.

They'll get blamed for any unpopular environmental decision now even if it has nothing to do with them.

Time and time again the diesel cars thing comes up, yes it was the wrong decision but they didn't know about the emissions figures being made up either. You'd swear it was the only bad policy a political party ever had.

With all that said I still think Ryan is a bit of an embarrassment every time he speaks.

ganmo

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The 7% reduction is from the international Paris Agreement and is already signed up to by our Govt through Enda some years back, it has nothing to do with the Green Party but with governments from around the world.

Was it a 7% overall reduction.
The 7% the greens wanted was a year on year reduction meaning we'd be looking at a 25% reduction over 4 years, it would be just not possible.

Dunedin

endainoz wrote: »

I'm not sure what "idiotic policy" you are referring to.

Pretty much all of them I’d say

Castlekeeper

ganmo wrote: »

Was it a 7% overall reduction.
The 7% the greens wanted was a year on year reduction meaning we'd be looking at a 25% reduction over 4 years, it would be just not possible.

1990 levels minus 40% is he basic Paris agreement with individual adjustments and clauses.
There's still a huge level of ignorance and denial of the challenge ahead, and this "blame the greens" sh!t is up there with the brexsh!t mentality.
Here's an article from 2015 here that gives a good outline.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/paris-agreement-profound-changes-ahead-for-ireland-1.2465016

endainoz

Dunedin wrote: »

Pretty much all of them I’d say

Not much point arguing a point when the person's mind is clearly made up already. Too much ignorance I'm afraid.

Donegalforever

Deleted User wrote: »

Be afraid. The Green politicians don't have a farming background. They understand nothing about the Countryside. I may have problems with modern agricultural practices but these zealots understand nothing and digest dogma as fact.

That is because they really belong to a different planet.

richie123

endainoz wrote: »

We make nothing from our natural resources, you can thank Ray Burke for that.

We make nothing from our resources because we have neither expertise nor the money to exploit such resources.

endainoz

richie123 wrote: »

We make nothing from our resources because we have neither expertise nor the money to exploit such resources.

Rubbish, any country with natural resources gets experts in and nationalises them. You might have heard of statoil? Norway did that and are one of the richest countries in the world.

richie123

endainoz wrote: »

Rubbish, any country with natural resources gets experts in and nationalises them. You might have heard of statoil? Norway did that and are one of the richest countries in the world.

We are 200 billion in dept and have always being in dept ..we haven't got money for social housing or health and you want to borrow to drill for oil and gas.
Always ask the question why and you won't be long about finding answers.

dh1985

endainoz wrote: »

They'll get blamed for any unpopular environmental decision now even if it has nothing to do with them.

Time and time again the diesel cars thing comes up, yes it was the wrong decision but they didn't know about the emissions figures being made up either. You'd swear it was the only bad policy a political party ever had.

With all that said I still think Ryan is a bit of an embarrassment every time he speaks.

Just on one point, the emissions figures been skewed by car manufacturers was not the problem. This is a separate issue. The incorrect.understanding of the seriousness of NOx as an pollutant over CO2 was the problem. This issue lies solely at the politicians of europe.

dh1985

dh1985 wrote: »

Just on one point, the emissions figures been skewed by car manufacturers was not the problem. This is a separate issue. The incorrect.understanding of the seriousness of NOx as an pollutant over CO2 was the problem. This issue lies solely at the politicians of europe.

Exactly thanks for posting this, their policy on car tax was wrong when it was proposed it was common knowledge with anyone who knew anything about cars, engineering, physics or reality!


I'm really worried for those of us who buy older reliable cars and maintain them ourselves for cheap transport, this will not be possible anytime soon with electric cars but things can change fast I suppose.

endainoz

richie123 wrote: »

We are 200 billion in dept and have always being in dept ..we haven't got money for social housing or health and you want to borrow to drill for oil and gas.
Always ask the question why and you won't be long about finding answers.

I already gave the reason why in a previous post, all of Ireland's gas and oil was given away in the 80s for a meagre sum and that's why we make no money from it whatsoever. The simple fact is that if we did it right, like Norway did at around the same time by the way, you can guarantee we wouldn't be 200 billion in debt. This was due to corruption.

The low estimates of the figure Ireland lost out on is estimated to be around 420 billion. You can thank Fianna fail for that by the way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115%3fmode=amp

I also said nothing about wanting to borrow to drill for it in 2020, don't know where you got that from.

richie123

endainoz wrote: »

I already gave the reason why in a previous post, all of Ireland's gas and oil was given away in the 80s for a meagre sum and that's why we make no money from it whatsoever. The simple fact is that if we did it right, like Norway did at around the same time by the way, you can guarantee we wouldn't be 200 billion in debt. This was due to corruption.

The low estimates of the figure Ireland lost out on is estimated to be around 420 billion. You can thank Fianna fail for that by the way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115%3fmode=amp

I also said nothing about wanting to borrow to drill for it in 2020, don't know where you got that from.

The oil fields in Norway are way more profitable.
Oilfields in Irish waters far more difficult and very expensive.
You suggested we should go it ourselves alone which requires borrowing a serious amount of money ...was never gonna happen.

Good loser

endainoz wrote: »

I already gave the reason why in a previous post, all of Ireland's gas and oil was given away in the 80s for a meagre sum and that's why we make no money from it whatsoever. The simple fact is that if we did it right, like Norway did at around the same time by the way, you can guarantee we wouldn't be 200 billion in debt. This was due to corruption.

The low estimates of the figure Ireland lost out on is estimated to be around 420 billion. You can thank Fianna fail for that by the way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115%3fmode=amp

I also said nothing about wanting to borrow to drill for it in 2020, don't know where you got that from.

What's that €420 bn referring to?


My recollection is that the Corrib field cost €1 bn to develop. And that it's remaining life is about 10 years.
Ireland could never charge much for oil/gas because so many of the wells were duds.

endainoz

Good loser wrote: »

What's that €420 bn referring to?


My recollection is that the Corrib field cost €1 bn to develop. And that it's remaining life is about 10 years.
Ireland could never charge much for oil/gas because so many of the wells were duds.

The figure comes from this article.

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

Anyway this is getting very much off topic, there's nothing we can do about it now.

Castlekeeper

Says a lot for the PFG that, apart from a few banal generalities, there hasn't been tested usual organised clamour of anti-green scaremongering.
I think it's a really positive document for society and especially agriculture and the environment with scope for a lot of investment and development.

richie123

endainoz wrote: »

The figure comes from this article.

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

Anyway this is getting very much off topic, there's nothing we can do about it now.

There was nothing we could ever do about it.

djmc

My own views on it are most urban politicians have very little understanding of rural affairs and most green party members are from urban areas. I am all for some of their ideas though like changing some rules around land eligiblity https://www.thatsfarming.com/news/maintaining-cap-budget-is-top-priority-of-new-government
I don't see the point in having to spray rushs with chemical on wet land in order to claim payment with a few suckler cows etc. The main worry I have is who will pay for new environment schemes the government or the farmer's and with no increase to the cap budget I think it could well be the farmer's.

twin_beacon

kk.man wrote: »

And what about Ryan driving out of the Dáil Éireann in a VW van with enough space to bring a school tour

its a 03 VW that runs on bio diesel, the newer diesel engines wont run on it

as someone that commutes 70km each way to work, and uses kerosene to heat the house, I am very concerned about the new government.

endainoz

For anyone interested in reading the document before resorting to hysteria.


https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/06/draft-programme-for-govt.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0aVrPqfRCTwG0nf6OGogoLidpT16_5la6HED5Tcf9klpGmK-Y1o3vkx2g

Castlekeeper

endainoz wrote: »

For anyone interested in reading the document before resorting to hysteria.


https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/06/draft-programme-for-govt.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0aVrPqfRCTwG0nf6OGogoLidpT16_5la6HED5Tcf9klpGmK-Y1o3vkx2g

And here's a link to a summary the main agri-environment points;
https://twitter.com/MORANEnv/status/1272605925824741376?s=09