Strange decisions by clubs

Kingswood Rover

Golf is my Game wrote: »

The difference between the two sides here is that theres those who see paying membership of a golf club as a simple commercial deal like buying a pint of milk or a cinema ticket. So judging value. Worth it, not worth it. Deal agreed with certain conditions and expectations of delivery. I paid x, you give me y.

And them who see themselves as a group of people who have clubbed together to jointly fund their golf club. So maybe at times have to pay more or less. Aren't interested in the fine print of their entitlement, or what deal they are given. The see it as THEIR club, so if it needd a bit of a dig out, they try to, without getting hung up on 'well hold on there, not my problem if your short of cash for covid or whatever, I know my rights' kind of attitude.

Could not of put it better totally encapsulates the essence of club.

Kingswood Rover

callaway92 wrote: »

Ya I’m a ST holder for Tipp GAA and Ireland (Soccer)

If I had to pay extra on top of my season ticket where that isn’t outlined in the terms of the membership then yes of course I’d be pissed off.

If price goes up before renewal though, that’s fine (which is probably what the courses in question should’ve done next year)

Yes you might be pissed off but are you then going to say right oi am now following Kilkenny and Nordy Ireland, are you fcuk, you are still going to support your county and country. My point is basically we are in a club that has pretty much fixed costs and when the **** hits the fan we need to not be found wanting tbh i honestly think more club members would insist on paying than insist on not.

PhilOssophy

Why not charge non-members more for golf? This is the 1 window where golf clubs can make hay as the sun shines, people are desperate to do something and golf and tennis need to take full advantage while they have the chance!

Sultan_of_Ping

One thing I've noticed, is an increasing number of "prestige" clubs now willing to do deals for GUI members to play their tracts......most of the time they've no interest in locals, but I suppose the drop off in tourists means our money might be good enough for them

Kingswood Rover

gypsy79 wrote: »

I have done at the football club I support. And many do every week or at least they did until every game till kingdom come sold out

If it is the difference between surviving and not surviving then it is a good idea

Come on the Bohs WAR

Kingswood Rover

Ollieboy wrote: »

The government allowed business to defer paye payments and rates with no interest and gave small business cash breaks.

Member owned clubs/facilities, are they not exempt from commercial rates

callaway92

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Yes you might be pissed off but are you then going to say right oi am now following Kilkenny and Nordy Ireland, are you fcuk, you are still going to support your county and country. My point is basically we are in a club that has pretty much fixed costs and when the **** hits the fan we need to not be found wanting tbh i honestly think more club members would insist on paying than insist on not.

Man that is not the point. It’s the charging extra to play a normal round.

If Tipp started charging extra to go into League matches on top of my season ticket half way through the season I’d have to have a good think about it to be honest.

Not sure why you went off talking about Kilkenny and NI

MorganIRL

Mushy wrote: »

Well with all societies likely to be cancelled, even just for May and June, there will be a shortfall.

If a club is doing it just to make a quick buck, then that is very poor form

Not true played 18 yesterday with my society.. we have a small mix of midweek eve outings, I reckon we may struggle with the Saturday outings due to congested timetable..

Re: pay to play, I'd be happy with the 'donation box' if required.. but I'd like a proper explanation on what it's going on..

Ollieboy

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Member owned clubs/facilities, are they not exempt from commercial rates

Certain parts are but bar and restaurant are not. Basically any part that is not sports or is commercial in business ie pro shop. Can’t remember the exact details but I know we pay 11k a year down from 18 k when I kept challenging it but had to wait 3 years to do it!

Decision reversed by L&B...

Kingswood Rover

callaway92 wrote: »

Man that is not the point. It’s the charging extra to play a normal round.

If Tipp started charging extra to go into League matches on top of my season ticket half way through the season I’d have to have a good think about it to be honest.

Not sure why you went off talking about Kilkenny and NI

My analogy was if you love your club county team etc to me there is should be a degree of understanding and loyalty at the club team or country trying not to trade recklessly.

Kingswood Rover

Ollieboy wrote: »

Certain parts are but bar and restaurant are not. Basically any part that is not sports or is commercial in business ie pro shop. Can’t remember the exact details but I know we pay 11k a year down from 18 k when I kept challenging it but had to wait 3 years to do it!

If your bar or restaurant is franchised out yes i would imagine that would incur rates

searay

Ollieboy wrote: »

This is the wrong view to be honest and I’ll explain why.

Club as a spend budget of 1 million and annual income of 1 million, straight away you have a issue, the spend budget should only be 900k. Now this is a very simple example.

When income drops the club needs to take immediate actions to now reduced that spend, not have the civil service approach, sure the membership will dig us out.

So letting staff go, suspending projects, switching of sky sports, pay cuts, stop paying taxes and rates etc etc. the committee needs to prove the last thing they do is ask for a dig out! They also need to look at revenue streams and see if they can increase income.

Otherwise they just took the easy approach and that’s not fair on hard working people who you don’t have a clue of their circumstances.

Members club need to be run as a business first and club second otherwise they will have no future.

We made cuts and immediately estimated the loss income and always knew we would make it to year end because we took the above steps. We changed from monthly cash flows to weekly. I’ve met very few clubs that do cash management which is key in a cash business. Our income is now coming in higher then we expected and we might end up in a positive position but that’s down to good management, what you’re describing is bad management.

Of course if you tell me the club did the above and this was a final option, then fair enough but I would still wonder about the clubs long term business plan. We have 1 3 5 and 10 year business plans and they get changed each year.

And to prove the above is the way to go, we have increased membership by 80%, income by 40% and reduced debt by 66% while still having a capital investment in our assets.

Your numbers don’t reflect Parkland clubs outside major urban centres. The cost of basic levels of maintaining a course is €300k-€400k. There are clubs with as low as 150-200 members paying 700/800 for membership (160k) and trying to fund the balance from €20 green fees. Even if they’ve 400 full paying members they will still struggle.

Many of them have legacy debt from clubhouse refurbs or course changes going back 15-20 years. Similarly it’s hard too understand how or why some of the privately owned courses with similar membership numbers are keeping going.

Look at the merger of 2 Kerry clubs, the closure of Castle Barna and the Course near Rathangan as examples.

Other courses may follow and mergers may be necessary for some to survive.

Mushy

MorganIRL wrote: »

Not true played 18 yesterday with my society.. we have a small mix of midweek eve outings, I reckon we may struggle with the Saturday outings due to congested timetable..

Re: pay to play, I'd be happy with the 'donation box' if required.. but I'd like a proper explanation on what it's going on..

Are societies not out until end of this month? It's only members and guests of members allowed out. Would lead me to thinking that the club needed money hence being allowed play

Ollieboy

searay wrote: »

Your numbers don’t reflect Parkland clubs outside major urban centres. The cost of basic levels of maintaining a course is €300k-€400k. There are clubs with as low as 150-200 members paying 700/800 for membership (160k) and trying to fund the balance from €20 green fees. Even if they’ve 400 full paying members they will still struggle.

Many of them have legacy debt from clubhouse refurbs or course changes going back 15-20 years. Similarly it’s hard too understand how or why some of the privately owned courses with similar membership numbers are keeping going.

Look at the merger of 2 Kerry clubs, the closure of Castle Barna and the Course near Rathangan as examples.

Other courses may follow and mergers may be necessary for some to survive.

This is exactly my point.

Labor 4 staff for 18 holes including head green keeper
Machinery
Materials
Office cost and club house

400k just can’t cover that, you would need to sell a lot of green fees.

A club recently closed and the reason they provided was machinery broke and couldn’t afford to replace it! A club running on that amount of income is only one problem away from closing down and I’m not sure it should be open as a going concern.

In your example I would guess the machinery in these clubs doesn’t get replaced and green keepers do a amazing maintenance job. They would be massively restricted in the materials they can buy.

But fair play to the club.

Anyway, I suppose we are off topic now.