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Strange decisions by clubs

  • 10-06-2020 5:33pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 871 Remind me


    I have just seen on twitter Laytown are charging members a fee to play casual golf.

    Any members here with info?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,859 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    Fermoy doing the same.

    Paying membership on certain terms and then having that done to you is not nice, especially if you don't have a say in it.

    Refunds should be allowed if someone wants them imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭ GolfNut33


    Loads of clubs doing the same. Not all clubs have a huge cash reserve. A modest 2 or 3 euro is fine by me and should be refunded if requested to do so. My club are charging €3 and haven't heard one person give out about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,823 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    Jaysus bad enough paying membership for a club that was closed for 2 months but then being charged money on top of the membership just to play a casual round.


    IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: "In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom"

    Irish Proclamation



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,859 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    Jaysus bad enough paying membership for a club that was closed for 2 months but then being charged money on top of the membership just to play a casual round.

    I mean...I personally despise it.

    Similar if you had a gym membership and then without any argument you're told you also now have to pay every time you go in.

    Generally people don't argue about it at places like Golf Courses because A) they don't know who to complain to and B) their argument would be to no avail anyway with the committee that made the decision anyway... maybe C) they'd nearly be shunned out of the club.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    Its not the same. the gym is a business that will charge what it can get to make some cash.
    A golf club is not, and so its the members contributing to keeping their club running. With loosing out on some income during the lockdown, they are now making it up. Fair enough I say.
    Anyways, whats so special about not paying for casual golf other than that normally we dont. We pay for competition golf (and not just the prizes, most of the fee goes to the running of the club anyway). So just because their cant be competitions doesnt mean the club can do without the money that would normally contribute.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭ Kingswood Rover


    callaway92 wrote: »
    I mean...I personally despise it.

    Similar if you had a gym membership and then without any argument you're told you also now have to pay every time you go in.

    Generally people don't argue about it at places like Golf Courses because A) they don't know who to complain to and B) their argument would be to no avail anyway with the committee that made the decision anyway... maybe C) they'd nearly be shunned out of the club.
    Members clubs are run by the committee elected every year by us the members they are responsible for keeping the club running within its means, if they deem a temporary fee for casual golf is an effective way of maintaining financial integrity then so be it. From what i read so far its less than the competition fee at the weekend and midweek less than the snack may people have after a round.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,859 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    Members clubs are run by the committee elected every year by us the members they are responsible for keeping the club running within its means, if they deem a temporary fee for casual golf is an effective way of maintaining financial integrity then so be it. From what i read so far its less than the competition fee at the weekend and midweek less than the snack may people have after a round.

    Ah come on now - That’s some way of looking at it.

    Percentage of people who take part in committee elections are <15% everywhere. Before you say ‘tough luck for not voting’, that’s a bad way of putting it.

    So what if it’s €2, €5 or €10.. Some people may have enough for their membership every year and that’s it - Having to pony up more without having a say in it isn’t right.

    I can’t believe people are defending stuff like this.

    There’s better ways to raise money than forcing people to pay extra on top of the already agreed terms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭ Kingswood Rover


    Nothing i have said is not valid in terms of a members owned or run club, would agree with your point of view if it was privately owned with an affiliated gui club, then sod them. We have not done it in our gaff by the way, perhaps a voluntary contribution would be more effective. Do you follow a football team would you be of the same opinion if your season ticket or the entrance price went up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ HighLine


    Whilst in lockdown, we actually received a lot of requests from members who asked that we charge a nominal fee for casual golf when we re-opened. Personally I didn't think it would go down well but we decided to put voluntary contribution box out. There has been a fair some of money collected.

    Perhaps it depends on the club but it was very heartening to see the "club spirit" shown by our members. From hours upon hours of voluntary work to cash donations, they really did support their club and continue to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 Remind me


    Nothing i have said is not valid in terms of a members owned or run club, would agree with your point of view if it was privately owned with an affiliated gui club, then sod them. We have not done it in our gaff by the way, perhaps a voluntary contribution would be more effective. Do you follow a football team would you be of the same opinion if your season ticket or the entrance price went up.

    If you had a season ticket fully paid and they then decided mid season to start charging you extra at the gate would you agree?

    The whole thing doesnt sit well with me but if it is essential for clubs to survive so be it but I think there would be better ways of approaching it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    The difference between the two sides here is that theres those who see paying membership of a golf club as a simple commercial deal like buying a pint of milk or a cinema ticket. So judging value. Worth it, not worth it. Deal agreed with certain conditions and expectations of delivery. I paid x, you give me y.

    And them who see themselves as a group of people who have clubbed together to jointly fund their golf club. So maybe at times have to pay more or less. Aren't interested in the fine print of their entitlement, or what deal they are given. The see it as THEIR club, so if it needd a bit of a dig out, they try to, without getting hung up on 'well hold on there, not my problem if your short of cash for covid or whatever, I know my rights' kind of attitude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,859 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    Nothing i have said is not valid in terms of a members owned or run club, would agree with your point of view if it was privately owned with an affiliated gui club, then sod them. We have not done it in our gaff by the way, perhaps a voluntary contribution would be more effective. Do you follow a football team would you be of the same opinion if your season ticket or the entrance price went up.

    Ya I’m a ST holder for Tipp GAA and Ireland (Soccer)

    If I had to pay extra on top of my season ticket where that isn’t outlined in the terms of the membership then yes of course I’d be pissed off.

    If price goes up before renewal though, that’s fine (which is probably what the courses in question should’ve done next year)


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,859 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    HighLine wrote: »
    Whilst in lockdown, we actually received a lot of requests from members who asked that we charge a nominal fee for casual golf when we re-opened. Personally I didn't think it would go down well but we decided to put voluntary contribution box out. There has been a fair some of money collected.

    Perhaps it depends on the club but it was very heartening to see the "club spirit" shown by our members. From hours upon hours of voluntary work to cash donations, they really did support their club and continue to do so.

    Yup - Voluntary is the way to go.

    It’s the being forced to do it without a say that’s very wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭ Ollieboy


    The difference between the two sides here is that theres those who see paying membership of a golf club as a simple commercial deal like buying a pint of milk or a cinema ticket. So judging value. Worth it, not worth it. Deal agreed with certain conditions and expectations of delivery. I paid x, you give me y.

    And them who see themselves as a group of people who have clubbed together to jointly fund their golf club. So maybe at times have to pay more or less. Aren't interested in the fine print of their entitlement, or what deal they are given. The see it as THEIR club, so if it needd a bit of a dig out, they try to, without getting hung up on 'well hold on there, not my problem if your short of cash for covid or whatever, I know my rights' kind of attitude.

    This is the wrong view to be honest and I’ll explain why.

    Club as a spend budget of 1 million and annual income of 1 million, straight away you have a issue, the spend budget should only be 900k. Now this is a very simple example.

    When income drops the club needs to take immediate actions to now reduced that spend, not have the civil service approach, sure the membership will dig us out.

    So letting staff go, suspending projects, switching of sky sports, pay cuts, stop paying taxes and rates etc etc. the committee needs to prove the last thing they do is ask for a dig out! They also need to look at revenue streams and see if they can increase income.

    Otherwise they just took the easy approach and that’s not fair on hard working people who you don’t have a clue of their circumstances.

    Members club need to be run as a business first and club second otherwise they will have no future.

    We made cuts and immediately estimated the loss income and always knew we would make it to year end because we took the above steps. We changed from monthly cash flows to weekly. I’ve met very few clubs that do cash management which is key in a cash business. Our income is now coming in higher then we expected and we might end up in a positive position but that’s down to good management, what you’re describing is bad management.

    Of course if you tell me the club did the above and this was a final option, then fair enough but I would still wonder about the clubs long term business plan. We have 1 3 5 and 10 year business plans and they get changed each year.

    And to prove the above is the way to go, we have increased membership by 80%, income by 40% and reduced debt by 66% while still having a capital investment in our assets.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,522 ✭✭✭✭ Mushy


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    This is the wrong view to be honest and I’ll explain why.

    Club as a spend budget of 1 million and annual income of 1 million, straight away you have a issue, the spend budget should only be 900k. Now this is a very simple example.

    When income drops the club needs to take immediate actions to now reduced that spend, not have the civil service approach, sure the membership will dig us out.

    So letting staff go, suspending projects, switching of sky sports, pay cuts, stop paying taxes and rates etc etc. the committee needs to prove the last thing they do is ask for a dig out! They also need to look at revenue streams and see if they can increase income.

    Otherwise they just took the easy approach and that’s not fair on hard working people who you don’t have a clue of their circumstances.

    Members club need to be run as a business first and club second otherwise they will have no future.

    We made cuts and immediately estimated the loss income and always knew we would make it to year end because we took the above steps. We changed from monthly cash flows to weekly. I’ve met very few clubs that do cash management which is key in a cash business. Our income is now coming in higher then we expected and we might end up in a positive position but that’s down to good management, what you’re describing is bad management.

    Of course if you tell me the club did the above and this was a final option, then fair enough but I would still wonder about the clubs long term business plan. We have 1 3 5 and 10 year business plans and they get changed each year.

    And to prove the above is the way to go, we have increased membership by 80%, income by 40% and reduced debt by 66% while still having a capital investment in our assets.

    Members clubs arent a business either. If spend is budgeted to 900k, where does the 100k go? Charging for casual golf in an exceptional time shouldn't be a negative thing, and people are free to take their membership elsewhere if not happy with it.

    Clubs asking for a levy is far worse than this, and doesn't necessarily happen in a pandemic


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,716 ✭✭✭ CalamariFritti


    Members owned clubs operate more or less on a non-profit basis. If the income rises membership fees go down and vice versa. Maybe there are exceptions where such clubs generate significant revenue but the vast majority of them don't.

    In an ideal world you build up some reserves but since 2008 the golfing landscape in Ireland has been far from ideal and I reckon most members owned clubs just get by.

    My club is asking for a voluntary contribution which I have no problem with. I'd say a move for mandatory would have required an EGM.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭ Exactly


    Remind me wrote: »
    I have just seen on twitter Laytown are charging members a fee to play casual golf.

    Any members here with info?

    €2 per round.

    Full membership, Finances ok, Waiting list for new members.


  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭ moycullen14


    Mushy wrote: »
    Members clubs arent a business either. If spend is budgeted to 900k, where does the 100k go? Charging for casual golf in an exceptional time shouldn't be a negative thing, and people are free to take their membership elsewhere if not happy with it.

    Clubs asking for a levy is far worse than this, and doesn't necessarily happen in a pandemic

    I'm not so sure. I've no problem with clubs asking for money when they know they are stuck - towards the end of the year.

    Not at all clear how much money clubs are down at this stage. How much of the costs are being covered by the COVID payments? What's the effect of new and existing membership? How do you set the rate? What's the long-term effect of charging for casual golf?

    Just too early to tell what the shortfall is likely to be. Going to be very tricky to go back to the well in September/October if not enough raised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭ moycullen14


    I'd happily throw a few euro into the pot for each casual round I play. Also, is it a fee on the timesheet entry? If so, are you being charged the same for 18 holes/9 holes or a quick 3 or 4 late in the evening?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,522 ✭✭✭✭ Mushy


    I'm not so sure. I've no problem with clubs asking for money when they know they are stuck - towards the end of the year.

    Not at all clear how much money clubs are down at this stage. How much of the costs are being covered by the COVID payments? What's the effect of new and existing membership? How do you set the rate? What's the long-term effect of charging for casual golf?

    Just too early to tell what the shortfall is likely to be. Going to be very tricky to go back to the well in September/October if not enough raised.

    Well with all societies likely to be cancelled, even just for May and June, there will be a shortfall.

    If a club is doing it just to make a quick buck, then that is very poor form


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  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭ jp101


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    This is the wrong view to be honest and I’ll explain why.

    Club as a spend budget of 1 million and annual income of 1 million, straight away you have a issue, the spend budget should only be 900k. Now this is a very simple example.

    When income drops the club needs to take immediate actions to now reduced that spend, not have the civil service approach, sure the membership will dig us out.

    So letting staff go, suspending projects, switching of sky sports, pay cuts, stop paying taxes and rates etc etc. the committee needs to prove the last thing they do is ask for a dig out! They also need to look at revenue streams and see if they can increase income.

    Otherwise they just took the easy approach and that’s not fair on hard working people who you don’t have a clue of their circumstances.

    Members club need to be run as a business first and club second otherwise they will have no future.

    We made cuts and immediately estimated the loss income and always knew we would make it to year end because we took the above steps. We changed from monthly cash flows to weekly. I’ve met very few clubs that do cash management which is key in a cash business. Our income is now coming in higher then we expected and we might end up in a positive position but that’s down to good management, what you’re describing is bad management.

    Of course if you tell me the club did the above and this was a final option, then fair enough but I would still wonder about the clubs long term business plan. We have 1 3 5 and 10 year business plans and they get changed each year.

    And to prove the above is the way to go, we have increased membership by 80%, income by 40% and reduced debt by 66% while still having a capital investment in our assets.

    If your club has gone down the road of not paying taxes and rates then you should really be very worried. That is not a legitimate business solution to the problems. Does your club have trustees and do they know this has happened?


  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭ moycullen14


    Mushy wrote: »
    Well with all societies likely to be cancelled, even just for May and June, there will be a shortfall.

    If a club is doing it just to make a quick buck, then that is very poor form

    There will be a revenue shortfall, alright.

    However, I'd have thought that it would have been more than balanced by cost reductions. If 70%+ of the wages are being covered by the Covid welfare payments then the club would be in profit - assuming annual subs unaffected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,859 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    Exactly wrote: »
    €2 per round.

    Full membership, Finances ok, Waiting list for new members
    .

    If that's true, it's rotten practice, and I'd immediately question the integrity of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    callaway92 wrote: »
    Yup - Voluntary is the way to go.

    It’s the being forced to do it without a say that’s very wrong.

    You can always not pay/play.

    What say do you think you should have?


  • Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭ Sultan_of_Ping


    Remind me wrote: »
    I have just seen on twitter Laytown are charging members a fee to play casual golf.

    Any members here with info?

    Yes - €2 to book and play a casual round.

    I think it's been done for a number of reasons.

    First, to get some revenue moving through the club.

    Second, to address the issue of people not honouring their bookings. People are lashing their name down all over the timesheets, then not showing up for the bookings! That leaves those who want to play effectively locked out when people don't cancel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭ gypsy79


    Remind me wrote: »
    If you had a season ticket fully paid and they then decided mid season to start charging you extra at the gate would you agree?
    I have done at the football club I support. And many do every week or at least they did until every game till kingdom come sold out

    If it is the difference between surviving and not surviving then it is a good idea


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭ Ollieboy


    jp101 wrote: »
    If your club has gone down the road of not paying taxes and rates then you should really be very worried. That is not a legitimate business solution to the problems. Does your club have trustees and do they know this has happened?

    The government allowed business to defer paye payments and rates with no interest and gave small business cash breaks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭ Ollieboy


    Mushy wrote: »
    Members clubs arent a business either. If spend is budgeted to 900k, where does the 100k go? Charging for casual golf in an exceptional time shouldn't be a negative thing, and people are free to take their membership elsewhere if not happy with it.

    Clubs asking for a levy is far worse than this, and doesn't necessarily happen in a pandemic

    How do you think capital funds are created? Every club should have a sinking fund to pay for future clubhouse, course and other capital cost.

    Plus, they need a buffer not running a business from one week to the next. So if cost are higher or sales drop, they had budgeted for less expenditure and can see the business through the year.

    And people wonder why so many business need bailouts in Ireland!

    The point is, that committees need to prove to members why they need these extra funds not just expect it.

    If they can’t run a business and the membership voted them in, then that’s what the membership gets.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,859 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You can always not pay/play.

    What say do you think you should have?

    In regards to the bolded - You've paid your membership to be allowed to play the course whenever you want. The terms have been changed now without you having a say in it, so the argument of 'you don't have to play' isn't right at all.

    In regards to the italics (italics looks like it's not working), I don't understand the question, sorry.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,522 ✭✭✭✭ Mushy


    Ollieboy wrote: »
    How do you think capital funds are created? Every club should have a sinking fund to pay for future clubhouse, course and other capital cost.

    Plus, they need a buffer not running a business from one week to the next. So if cost are higher or sales drop, they had budgeted for less expenditure and can see the business through the year.

    And people wonder why so many business need bailouts in Ireland!

    The point is, that committees need to prove to members why they need these extra funds not just expect it.

    If they can’t run a business and the membership voted them in, then that’s what the membership gets.

    Yeah but clubs may not be able to put away much after wages, course maintenance, etc. are taken into account, particularly if member base isnt a huge number. A club can be running efficiently, but then to be shut suddenly for a period of time will have a major impact. I think a key point of the nature of the closure is being forgotten, a global pandemic wouldnt be accounted for in too many places.

    Regarding committees needing to prove it, I do agree and would say if it was more normal circumstances, then it would be outrageous. A lot of factors to be taken in to account before just condemning them


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