Forced Return to Office Work

dancingqueen

Does anybody know of any information or advice for employees where employers are ignoring government advice and asking employees to use public transport to get to work (reduced capacity) when the current phase outlines that remote working must continue where possible?

D3V!L

dancingqueen wrote: »

Does anybody know of any information or advice for employees where employers are ignoring government advice and asking employees to use public transport to get to work (reduced capacity) when the current phase outlines that remote working must continue where possible?

Can your work be done remotely ?

dancingqueen

D3V!L wrote: »

Can your work be done remotely ?

I have been working remotely successfully since mid March

biko

Is your employer really asking you to use public transport?

Or rather, they are asking you start working from office - but you have to use public transport to get there? And you don't want to?

But yeah, if you can work from home then the government thinks this is what you should do still.

touts

dancingqueen wrote: »

Does anybody know of any information or advice for employees where employers are ignoring government advice and asking employees to use public transport to get to work (reduced capacity) when the current phase outlines that remote working must continue where possible?

Dont think there is much you can do. Employer could say you must return to work and how you get there be it public transportation or not is up to you. If you don't go back then they could go through the usual disciplinary process ultimately leading to termination. It would be a cheap way to downsize and not have to pay any redundancy etc.

That said I'd imagine there will be very few employers who will do this if working from home is a viable option. The PR backlash would deter them and anyway most probably see there are cost savings in not needing an expensive office in Dublin city center etc.

nullObjects

dancingqueen wrote: »

I have been working remotely successfully since mid March

All the way up to the last phase the advice is to work from home if you have the capacity to work from home:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7ae99f-easing-the-covid-19-restrictions-on-june-8-phase-2/

"Work from home: It is more important than ever to work from home where possible."
"Working from home must continue wherever possible."


Steps that offices must take before they reopen:
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/22829a-return-to-work-safely-protocol/

thelad95

Have you raised with the employer that you do not yet feel comfortable returning to work?

dancingqueen

biko wrote: »

Is your employer really asking you to use public transport?

Or rather, they are asking you start working from office - but you have to use public transport to get there? And you don't want to?

But yeah, if you can work from home then the government thinks this is what you should do still.

I do not have a car. The only mode of transport available to me is bus which has reduced capacity. I have social distancing concerns if trying to queue/wait for a bus that i can get on, and how long it might take me to get to and from the office now.

I am aware of the roadmap, my employer is ignoring this and asking me to ignore my personal concerns to go back to the office. There is no information on where help/advice can be sought for this

dancingqueen

thelad95 wrote: »

Have you raised with the employer that you do not yet feel comfortable returning to work?

three times

dancingqueen

nullObjects wrote: »

All the way up to the last phase the advice is to work from home if you have the capacity to work from home:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7ae99f-easing-the-covid-19-restrictions-on-june-8-phase-2/

"Work from home: It is more important than ever to work from home where possible."

I have questioned this and I have been told that "it was very positive and we are all to come back to the office"

dancingqueen

touts wrote: »

Dont think there is much you can do. Employer could say you must return to work and how you get there be it public transportation or not is up to you. If you don't go back then they could go through the usual disciplinary process ultimately leading to termination. It would be a cheap way to downsize and not have to pay any redundancy etc.

That said I'd imagine there will be very few employers who will do this if working from home is a viable option. The PR backlash would deter them and anyway most probably see there are cost savings in not needing an expensive office in Dublin city center etc.

I am very uncomfortable being asked to return to work in this manner. I know how I get to work is "up to me". Reduced capacity goes hand in hand with remote working advice however

TheChizler

Would cycling be an option?

dancingqueen

TheChizler wrote: »

Would cycling be an option?

No.

afatbollix

Get them to put a risk assessment down on paper and send it to you.

Getting to work is one of the risks they should be including in the assessment and the level of risk involved.

I had to do the same with my pregnant wife who is a teacher who they were asking to go back (In the UK). We got a 22-page risk assessment back and she will be the last of the teachers who will be asked back. (more than likely on Maternity leave by then anyway)

dancingqueen

afatbollix wrote: »

Get them to put a risk assessment down on paper and send it to you.

Getting to work is one of the risks they should be including in the assessment and the level of risk involved.

I had to do the same with my pregnant wife who is a teacher who they were asking to go back (In the UK). We got a 22-page risk assessment back and she will be the last of the teachers who will be asked back. (more than likely on Maternity leave by then anyway)

I have already asked to see the risk assessment, over a week ago. I was told we would be provided with a document but nothing has been circulated yet. I am unsure if a risk assessment includes getting to work as employers only have a duty to ensure that we have "a safe place to work".

We have not had induction training, we were not consulted on measures being applied. I have raised all of these concerns but I am getting nothing back.

mrslancaster

dancingqueen, maybe the HSA website: https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/covid-19/covid-19_advice_for_employers_and_employees/

dancingqueen

mrslancaster wrote: »

dancingqueen, maybe the HSA website: https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/covid-19/covid-19_advice_for_employers_and_employees/

Thanks, I have scoured the internet for something concrete but am yet to find it.

Snow Garden

dancingqueen wrote: »

I have already asked to see the risk assessment, over a week ago. I was told we would be provided with a document but nothing has been circulated yet. I am unsure if a risk assessment includes getting to work as employers only have a duty to ensure that we have "a safe place to work".

We have not had induction training, we were not consulted on measures being applied. I have raised all of these concerns but I am getting nothing back.

Are you equally productive at home as you would be at work?

dancingqueen

Snow Garden wrote: »

Are you equally productive at home as you would be at work?

My workload has increased a lot since lockdown due to the nature of my job. Not only that but I have no manager currently so I am the only person in my department. So I have had to be more productive as I have had a lot of extra stressors and workload.

Seth Brundle

If you are the only person in your dept, do you need to be present in the building when other workers are there?

dancingqueen

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you are the only person in your dept, do you need to be present in the building when other workers are there?

I don't know why you are asking this question? We have all had our usual "team" activities over Microsoft Teams successfully since lockdown.

Seth Brundle

dancingqueen wrote: »

I don't know why you are asking this question? We have all had our usual "team" activities over Microsoft Teams successfully since lockdown.

We don't know what dept you work in or what tour role is - it may be essential that you're on-site when staff are there e.g. H&S (ironically) or Cleaning & Maintenance

dancingqueen

Seth Brundle wrote: »

We don't know what dept you work in or what tour role is - it may be essential that you're on-site when staff are there e.g. H&S (ironically) or Cleaning & Maintenance

No, not my end of things. I think I'd know if I would need to be on site for other employees or I wouldn't be very good at my job.

This is presumably an argument that only has validity for the next 5 weeks. I assume that from 20 July companies will be able to ask people to return, no matter what (I know that most large companies will leave it to employee discretion, but many smaller ones likely will not). And how the employee gets to work would be a personal issue for the individual employee. If the employee considers the workplace unsafe, then presumably there could be a health and safety challenge to a request to return to the office. But if the issue is in getting to the office, and the use of public transport, I don't see how that would be the problem of the employer

petes

dancingqueen wrote: »

No, not my end of things. I think I'd know if I would need to be on site for other employees or I wouldn't be very good at my job.

No point in being condescending in your tone either when you are looking for advice. We don't know you or your job.

Seems like the company you work for are rather flimsy with the details.
You need a copy of the risk assessment or the induction document they intend to use on returning to work so you'll have to chase harder on these.

dancingqueen

Deleted User wrote: »

This is presumably an argument that only has validity for the next 5 weeks. I assume that from 20 July companies will be able to ask people to return, no matter what (I know that most large companies will leave it to employee discretion, but many smaller ones likely will not). And how the employee gets to work would be a personal issue for the individual employee. If the employee considers the workplace unsafe, then presumably there could be a health and safety challenge to a request to return to the office. But if the issue is in getting to the office, and the use of public transport, I don't see how that would be the problem of the employer

It is not but public health advise states that it should be taken into account that there are only 17 people allowed on each bus. Where i live, the bus is at max 80 at my stop or just after it. I have noted this numerous times, that I may struggle to adequately social distance if I am in a throng of people at the bus every morning and that I may not be able to time my journey to work easily, and will probably be late a lot.

The remote working and reduced public transport capacity go hand in hand, especially in Dublin city.

I have also raised numerous concerns about the office specifically, induction training, consultation on measures, etc. that have not been addressed, plus additional personal concerns that will affect me if working in the office.

dancingqueen

petes wrote: »

No point in being condescending in your tone either when you are looking for advice. We don't know you or your job.

Seems like the company you work for are rather flimsy with the details.
You need a copy of the risk assessment or the induction document they intend to use on returning to work so you'll have to chase harder on these.

Perhaps not, but there is also no need to assume I don't know anything.

I have asked for the risk assessment twice, and I have posted this in thread.

TippCashel

Not for me but more in regards to the OP's post - Businesses that are literally going against Government rules - Is there actually an avenue to report them etc?

dancingqueen

TippCashel wrote: »

Not for me but more in regards to the OP's post - Businesses that are literally going against Government rules - Is there actually an avenue to report them etc?

This is the help I was asking for to be honest!

Sono Topolino

Sorry mate but your employer is well within his rights to demand that you return to work provided he can guarantee a safe working environment.

How you get to and from work is your business. I cannot understand how you are “forced” to use public transport. Driving, walking, cycling, e-scooters etc are all options that you could consider.

If you don’t have a driver’s license, that’s your problem and one you could have avoided by getting a license like most people. I assume that since you don’t have a car and have access to public, you live in an urban area so the other transport methods are probably available to you.

Anyone with a job right now is incredibly fortunate and should be doing all they can to support their employer through this difficult time.

B.A._Baracus

Not much you can do if your employer says "back to work guys" - I too use public transport for work and when my job gives the go ahead I will have to use that too.

Just buy gloves and masks. Get in to the habit of taking gloves off as soon as you get off the bus / train.

dancingqueen

Sono Topolino wrote: »

Sorry mate but your employer is well within his rights to demand that you return to work provided he can guarantee a safe working environment.

How you get to and from work is your business. I cannot understand how you are “forced” to use public transport. Driving, walking, cycling, e-scooters etc are all options that you could consider.

If you don’t have a driver’s license, that’s your problem and one you could have avoided by getting a license like most people. I assume that since you don’t have a car and have access to public, you live in an urban area so the other transport methods are probably available to you.

Anyone with a job right now is incredibly fortunate and should be doing all they can to support their employer through this difficult time.

1. I am not your mate
2. I am entitled to be treated PROPERLY by my employer
3. I have other concerns, not JUST public transport
4. It is none of your business whether or not I drive and why I do or do not drive. Perhaps I have sight or health issues that don't allow me to?

Get a grip and don't be an ass

Telly

Why cant you go in early and leave early or go in late and leave late?

dancingqueen

Telly wrote: »

Why cant you go in early and leave early or go in late and leave late?

Employer will not permit this.

Seth Brundle

dancingqueen wrote: »

Get a grip and don't be an ass

When people in work try and help you, do you react like this?

ChikiChiki

dancingqueen wrote: »

I have already asked to see the risk assessment, over a week ago. I was told we would be provided with a document but nothing has been circulated yet. I am unsure if a risk assessment includes getting to work as employers only have a duty to ensure that we have "a safe place to work".

We have not had induction training, we were not consulted on measures being applied. I have raised all of these concerns but I am getting nothing back.

Getting to work via public transport presents the highest risk in my opinion.

Any risk assessment without it included is not worth the paper it is written on and you would have to question an adequate Covid 19 risk mitigation strategy has been put in place.

storker

dancingqueen wrote: »

Employer will not permit this.

This employer sounds like a real jerk. Is he prepared to offer any flexibility in any form?

By the way, has he outlined the steps he has taken to provide a safe working environment?

Sono Topolino

dancingqueen wrote: »

1. I am not your mate
2. I am entitled to be treated PROPERLY by my employer
3. I have other concerns, not JUST public transport
4. It is none of your business whether or not I drive and why I do or do not drive. Perhaps I have sight or health issues that don't allow me to?

Get a grip and don't be an ass

1. Ok
2. Your employer’s obligations to you begin when you start working in the morning and end when you leave in the evening Whatever happens before or after you leave the workplace isn’t a concern of your employer.
3. You haven’t explained why you don’t want to drive/cycle/walk. If you have a disability, then you have priority access to public transport. Wear a mask and gloves and you should be fine.

I’m not being an ass. I just don’t believe that you’re engaging with us in good faith.

dancingqueen

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Getting to work via public transport presents the highest risk in my opinion.

Any risk assessment without it included is not worth the paper it is written on and you would have to question an adequate Covid 19 risk mitigation strategy has been put in place.

That is why I have asked to see it, I highly doubt I will either. I don't think it was done and if it was, it wasn't completed by a qualifed H&S Professional.

dancingqueen

Sono Topolino wrote: »

1. Ok
2. Your employer’s obligations to you begin when you start working in the morning and end when you leave in the evening Whatever happens before or after you leave the workplace isn’t a concern of your employer.
3. You haven’t explained why you don’t want to drive/cycle/walk. If you have a disability, then you have priority access to public transport. Wear a mask and gloves and you should be fine.

I’m not being an ass. I just don’t believe that you’re engaging with us in good faith.

Good faith?
I asked if there was advice on how to deal with an employer is is not playing by the rules. I have been interrogated on my circumstances and told it is my own fault because I don't drive.

All I want is for my employer to play by the book. That isn't happening.

Seve OB

dancingqueen wrote: »

1. I am not your mate
2. I am entitled to be treated PROPERLY by my employer
3. I have other concerns, not JUST public transport
4. It is none of your business whether or not I drive and why I do or do not drive. Perhaps I have sight or health issues that don't allow me to?

Get a grip and don't be an ass

bit of an attitude here. the post was just laying down the facts and you just seem hell bent on not accepting them.

yes it is unfortunate for you that your employer wants you back in the office but they aren't "forcing you" to use public transport.

as long as they have laid down the correct back to work protocols (which you haven't disputed) then you need to suck it up or look for another job.

dancingqueen

storker wrote: »

This employer sounds like a real jerk. Is he prepared to offer any flexibility in any form?

By the way, has he outlined the steps he has taken to provide a safe working environment?

No, not in full. Nor were employees consulted beforehand (as is the requirement).

All information has been drip fed and not clear. Regardless of the explicit nature of "remote working MUST continue" in the roadmap, these decisions were made for this date beforehand and not changed in line with Phase 2.

Sono Topolino

Seth Brundle wrote: »

When people in work try and help you, do you react like this?

My money is on “yes” and he is giving his employer grief about an unprecedented disruption to normal operations that literally nobody foresaw even in February.

dancingqueen

Seve OB wrote: »

bit of an attitude here. the post was just laying down the facts and you just seem hell bent on not accepting them.

yes it is unfortunate for you that your employer wants you back in the office but they aren't "forcing you" to use public transport.

as long as they have laid down the correct back to work protocols (which you haven't disputed) then you need to suck it up or look for another job.

Yes I have disputed the protocols, as I have mentioned a few times in the thread already.

dancingqueen

Sono Topolino wrote: »

My money is on “yes” and he is giving his employer grief about an unprecedented disruption to normal operations that literally nobody foresaw even in February.

I am a she, firstly, and you don't know me. You are continuing to play the bully- boy too which shows far more about your character than it does about mine.

Cuddlesworth

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/act/1/enacted/en/print#sec10



(c) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (b), restrictions to be imposed upon persons or classes of persons resident in, working in or visiting locations referred to in paragraph (b) including (but not limited to)—

(i) requiring persons to remain in their homes, or

(ii) without prejudice to any other provisions of this Act or regulations made thereunder requiring persons to remain in such other places, as may be specified by the Minister;

(i) any other measures that the Minister considers necessary in order to prevent, limit, minimise or slow the spread of Covid-19;

I'm not a solicitor but it seems that if the Ministers current guidance is work from home if you can, then the company is breaking the law telling people to go into work without good reason.

Best to get a professional opinion on it. If they did get vindictive and let you go, it could possibly leave them open to a lawsuit.

Might be worth contacting the WRC as well, get a official statement.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what-we-do/who-we-are/

Keep in mind, all of this will cause bad blood in your office if you are the only person taking this path.

dancingqueen

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/act/1/enacted/en/print#sec10



(c) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (b), restrictions to be imposed upon persons or classes of persons resident in, working in or visiting locations referred to in paragraph (b) including (but not limited to)—

(i) requiring persons to remain in their homes, or

(ii) without prejudice to any other provisions of this Act or regulations made thereunder requiring persons to remain in such other places, as may be specified by the Minister;

(i) any other measures that the Minister considers necessary in order to prevent, limit, minimise or slow the spread of Covid-19;

I'm not a solicitor but it seems that if the Ministers current guidance is work from home if you can, then the company is breaking the law telling people to go into work without good reason.

Best to get a professional opinion on it. If they did get vindictive and let you go, it could possibly leave them open to a lawsuit.

Might be worth contacting the WRC as well, get a official statement.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what-we-do/who-we-are/

Keep in mind, all of this will cause bad blood in your office if you are the only person taking this path.

Thank you for posting this, appreciate it.

Gallee

dancingqueen wrote: »

I have been working remotely successfully since mid March

Not too productive today!! Lots of time spent on Boards.

1hnr79jr65

Op, is there anyone you could possibly car pool with at your work place ?
How far do you live from work ?
Do you live in an Urban or Rural area ?
What is your work area like, a cramped office, factory, other ?
Do you have a union rep you can speak to ?

I take it there is no dedicated H&S person onsite from your last post, however it may be a first aid rep assigned that responsibility to risk assess ? If so, their assessment could be valid if it follows guidelines, assuming you can get a copy. Do you have a health concern that they should be accommodating you ?

Perhaps if you can answer these questions, folks can better offer guidance on how to manage this issue for you.

dancingqueen

Gallee wrote: »

Not too productive today!! Lots of time spent on Boards.

I'm on annual leave today

thanks for the wonderful comment though - you're hilarious

dancingqueen

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Op, is there anyone you could possibly car pool with at your work place ?
How far do you live from work ?
Do you live in an Urban or Rural area ?
What is your work area like, a cramped office, factory, other ?
Do you have a union rep you can speak to ?

I take it there is no dedicated H&S person onsite from your last post, however it may be a first aid rep assigned that responsibility to risk assess ? If so, their assessment could be valid if it follows guidelines, assuming you can get a copy. Do you have a health concern that they should be accommodating you ?

Perhaps if you can answer these questions, folks can better offer guidance on how to manage this issue for you.

Far enough that cycling/walking is too far
I can't car pool - employer has actually asked that we do not car pool
Urban
Cramped office
No union

H&S person is someone who works in the office. It is not their prime role though, they just do bits on the side.
Have asked twice for risk assessment (am quite knowledgeable on H&S as have family member qualified in this line of work)
Yes, I have a health concern