Anyone managing an off-farm job with dairying?

onrail

Anyone on here trying to balance off-farm employment with dairying? If so, what do you work at, and how are you finding things?

I'm currently working full time, away from the farm, but hoping to move back home to transition into taking over from the auld fella, who's around 5 years off retirement.

I wouldn't mind getting into Dairy full-time, and would prefer that over my off-farm job, but the pessimist in me doesn't want to put all my eggs into one basket.

When I move home in 1-2 years, I'm thinking I'll probably try drop down part-time in the job and split the work with the auld lad as best I can. Once he slows down completely though, I'll probably have to make a call either way. As far as I can see, mixing a full time career with Dairying just doesn't work?

Any experiences otherwise? My other option is to spend the next year retraining into an off-farm career which might be a bit more flexible to mixing in with the farm work.

Mooooo

Investing in facilities so jobs can be done quickly and right along with having a good relief or part time person may be the way to go depending on the parents stage. Would be tough going. Could look at switching to once a day perhaps.

blue5000

I wouldn't think they'd have time to be on boards.

I was in college full time for a few years before exiting dairying. Was starting at 5.30 and often finished feeding at 10pm. Let's just say it's a young man's game. OAD might be an option.

You really need a good contractor to take some of the pressure off, slurry, fertiliser spreading and fencing. Local aib ag advisor went dairying part time, built it up to around 150 cows and is now farming full time, so it can be done. Good organisation skills and a good team of people around you all help.

Sugarbowl

Plenty of people I know work in dairy and off farm as well. A lot of it depends on the flexibility of the second job. You will need to be home more around Spring with calving etc. Many farmers I know would do building/carpentry work and wouldn’t be as tied down to the clock.

Bass Reeves

OP what sort of land area, type of land and how many cows milked at present

onrail

Bass Reeves wrote: »

OP what sort of land area, type of land and how many cows milked at present

280 acres total, with around half of that on an outfarm roughly 3 miles from the yard. Current milking block is around 60 acres in dry, but very sandy, typically north-facing ground, so isn't the most productive and could do with a good re-seeding.

Auld lad tipping away milking 60, with a bit of dairy-to-beef on the side.

ABitofsense

When my father was sick a couple of years ago, I had to balance milking & a busy 9-5 job for 3 months. It nearly killed me! 5.30 starting milking & doing all the jobs, head to work & straight back to milking. It wasn't worth the hassle, no family time or anything. I dried and sold all that winter best decision ever as my father got his health back with no worries about milking everyday. I'm in sucklers now & working which is way more manageable with my job and my father can potter around the farm giving out about the little things i haven't done!

onrail

ABitofsense wrote: »

When my father was sick a couple of years ago, I had to balance milking & a busy 9-5 job for 3 months. It nearly killed me! 5.30 starting milking & doing all the jobs, head to work & straight back to milking. It wasn't worth the hassle, no family time or anything. I dried and sold all that winter best decision ever as my father got his health back with no worries about milking everyday. I'm in sucklers now & working which is way more manageable with my job and my father can potter around the farm giving out about the little things i haven't done!

If I'm being honest, that's probably the most realistic solution - but jayses it'd kill me to go to sucklers. We used to have a few back in the day and I really hated the pricks.

I know one farm that got a robot in the last year or so, I’d assume it’s for future proofing when the sons have to be running the farm full time while doing full time jobs.

Used to work in the buildings during college with a block layer who milked, used to work 6 days a week blocklaying too. But it was all local within 10 mins of home and I don’t think he has a large herd.

Siamsa Sessions

onrail wrote: »

I wouldn't mind getting into Dairy full-time, and would prefer that over my off-farm job.

Are you working and milking there at the weekends at the moment? If not, try that for a month and you'll have a better idea then whether you like it or not.

onrail wrote: »

When I move home in 1-2 years, I'm thinking I'll probably try drop down part-time in the job and split the work with the auld lad as best I can. Once he slows down completely though, I'll probably have to make a call either way. As far as I can see, mixing a full time career with Dairying just doesn't work?

If you can drop back to part-time at that stage, give it a go for 6 months. I mean milking and working part-time. As with above comment, you'll have a better idea then whether or not you want to go milking full-time.

onrail wrote: »

Any experiences otherwise? My other option is to spend the next year retraining into an off-farm career which might be a bit more flexible to mixing in with the farm work.

As a man said to me here in the yard last week, "They could an-ting be done". If you have a part-time off-farm job, say 20-25 hours/week, and it's flexible so you can do 4-5 hours every day, Mon-Fri, then it would certainly be manageable. Before you look around to re-train though, if the current job can't be done part-time, to see what might give you that flexibility, ask yourself the big questions: What do you want to do? Milk cows? Live at home? Stay in your current job? Re-train to do something else? Meet a wife/husband? Read more classic novels? Run marathons? Play GAA? etc.

They could an-ting be done. But figuring out the right ting for you is the hard part.

And apologies for the philosophy on a Monday morning!

ABitofsense

onrail wrote: »

If I'm being honest, that's probably the most realistic solution - but jayses it'd kill me to go to sucklers. We used to have a few back in the day and I really hated the pricks.

We bought in HEx, LMx & AAx from dairy so were bucket fed and kept the best for breeding & they would be the quietest stock around. They would follow me around the farm if needed, calves and all. No running after anything! Any problems cull! The way i look at farming is as a hobby, keep books balanced & enjoy the fresh air as stress free as possible

Mooooo

onrail wrote: »

280 acres total, with around half of that on an outfarm roughly 3 miles from the yard. Current milking block is around 60 acres in dry, but very sandy, typically north-facing ground, so isn't the most productive and could do with a good re-seeding.

Auld lad tipping away milking 60, with a bit of dairy-to-beef on the side.

Are you saying there is one block of 140 acres? Others may disagree but if you want to go dairying fulltime with that amount of land 150+ cows would be very manageable. Use the biggest block as the grazing platform and the rest for heifers and silage. Look at everything, join a local discussion group etc. Managing a larger herd would be easier than working and milking a smaller herd.

Panch18

onrail wrote: »

280 acres total, with around half of that on an outfarm roughly 3 miles from the yard. Current milking block is around 60 acres in dry, but very sandy, typically north-facing ground, so isn't the most productive and could do with a good re-seeding.

Auld lad tipping away milking 60, with a bit of dairy-to-beef on the side.

With that land base and if you had no loans you could have a decent living for yourself with dairy and beef. maybe up your cows to say 75, improve your grass, get, or continue, a nice simple beef system going and you should be fine.

you don't need to be milking 300 cows to do ok for yourself

onrail

Mooooo wrote: »

Are you saying there is one block of 140 acres? Others may disagree but if you want to go dairying fulltime with that amount of land 150+ cows would be very manageable. Use the biggest block as the grazing platform and the rest for heifers and silage. Look at everything, join a local discussion group etc. Managing a larger herd would be easier than working and milking a smaller herd.

Yeah, the outfarm block is around 130 acres, but there are no existing infrastructure or buildings there. It's typically been used for young stock, silage (and even sheep back in the day!). We'd need a big investment to set up buildings, roadways etc.
The home farm, with buildings and a 9-unit parlour already in place, is maybe 70-80 acres, with a further 35 acres which would need an underpass to access for dairy.

Interesting that you say 150 cows might be manageable - I'd presume someone on the fulltime payroll would be needed to increase to that amount?

Mooooo

You need to know what your parents need to rake from the farm as well in terms of income. You then need to know what you will need. Mortgage for a house, family or potential family costs etc. Also if over 35 there will be stamp duty on transfer which would be significant on that acreage.

Basically a lot of planning required including accountants etc

onrail

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

And apologies for the philosophy on a Monday morning!

Ah sure no harm in a bit of philosophy on a Monday!

I think I'd be happy in Dairying, if I could guarantee enough income for the luxury of a day or two off every couple of weeks (outside Spring obviously). Don't want to be a millionaire, just comfortable.

Ultimately, I dislike my current job and it's not well paying, so I'd be happy to chuck that if I knew that an income from Dairying was safe to provide for my family in the long term.

Mooooo

onrail wrote: »

Yeah, the outfarm block is around 130 acres, but there are no existing infrastructure or buildings there. It's typically been used for young stock, silage (and even sheep back in the day!). We'd need a big investment to set up buildings, roadways etc.
The home farm, with buildings and a 9-unit parlour already in place, is maybe 70-80 acres, with a further 35 acres which would need an underpass to access for dairy.

Interesting that you say 150 cows might be manageable - I'd presume someone on the fulltime payroll would be needed to increase to that amount?

On my own here with a lad 3 days a week at 126 cows aim to get to 140 cows on 160 acres with a 10 acre outfarm all heifers and silage on block at the moment. Have a land loan which I'll be paying for another 15 years yet along with inherited debt but that should be gone in 3 years. If I can get the heifers off farm may go to 170/ 180 but will need facilities to be upgraded. Some need to be upgraded as is
Edit having said that with the loan and paying the man things were and have been tight some years but the advantage of your father still around and facilities can be done over time If needed. Know one person calving at home and takes cow's to rented outfarm to milk for main season. If you could put up a 20 unit parlour and roadways/ water on the bigger block could calve at home then. Use the dry home block and parlour for early spring grazing and take cow's down then. In time facilities could be developed then. As I said a lot of planning commitment and knowing what you and your folks want is the key

bogman_bass

I tried it. Lasted 6 months at it. Would not recommend.

Kevhog1988

onrail wrote: »

Ah sure no harm in a bit of philosophy on a Monday!

I think I'd be happy in Dairying, if I could guarantee enough income for the luxury of a day or two off every couple of weeks (outside Spring obviously). Don't want to be a millionaire, just comfortable.

Ultimately, I dislike my current job and it's not well paying, so I'd be happy to chuck that if I knew that an income from Dairying was safe to provide for my family in the long term.

if you dislike the current job and have 200 acres at your disposal to farm id go at the farming full time. Theres no point splitting yourself at a job you dislike and one you like as youll end up hating and resenting both if your tight for time constantly.

DukeCaboom

Would a robot to milk the cows be a thought.

Know of one lad who came home they'd 60 sucklers and he changed to 80 milking cows.
He is a civil engineer and has his office in the yard. It is a superbly ran setup. Now he does has his father to move the fence during the day if he has to visit a site.

onrail

DukeCaboom wrote: »

Would a robot to milk the cows be a thought.

Know of one lad who came home they'd 60 sucklers and he changed to 80 milking cows.
He is a civil engineer and has his office in the yard. It is a superbly ran setup. Now he does has his father to move the fence during the day if he has to visit a site.

I wouldn’t rule it out; although I’d guess you’re looking at €150-200k of an investment.

I’m a civil engineer myself - would enjoy chatting to yer man to see how he’s getting on.

Bass Reeves

onrail wrote: »

I wouldn’t rule it out; although I’d guess you’re looking at €150-200k of an investment.

I’m a civil engineer myself - would enjoy chatting to yer man to see how he’s getting on.

With that sort of a land bank it gives you choices. However At a guess it's not all top quality land.

However you can go dairying fulltime with 100-150 cows. You have the option of a robot milking 60-80 cows and continue the beef operators is. Suckler's are an option you run 150+ and sell the weinlings in the Autumn or drop back to 100 HEX type cows run an LM or easy calving CH and carry everything to finish.

However I see you say you father runs a beef operation, I imagine finishing the progeny of his dairy herd. It would be easy enough to go calf to beef or store to beef and continue as a civil engineer. This could give you the option to semi retire in your 50's( go self employed) and farm away

Mooooo

Issue with robot is cost tbh. You could have a decent 20 unit parlour in for the price of one of em and for 2 you'd have a share of cubicles put in as well. Then again if you think they'd suit check out everthing but talk to farmers using them, not when the rep is showing you around.

Bass Reeves

Mooooo wrote: »

Issue with robot is cost tbh. You could have a decent 20 unit parlour in for the price of one of em and for 2 you'd have a share of cubicles put in as well. Then again if you think they'd suit check out everthing but talk to farmers using them, not when the rep is showing you around.

Parlour means you go fulltime, it would be possible to continue his job and milk with a robot. If he continues working robot is written off tax wise at 40%tax rate. However if I was staying working I go for a complete beef system ideally store to finish, but calf to beef or Suckler to beef would be decent options as well.

Mooooo

With that acreage the investment in parlour and facilities compared to robot would allow him to farm fulltime. Also can be easier to get someone to milk at a set time than deal with a robot which is stopped for whatever reason, particularly if there isn't a second one to work thru some of the cow's. All different options should def look at them all

Morris Moss

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Parlour means you go fulltime, it would be possible to continue his job and milk with a robot. If he continues working robot is written off tax wise at 40%tax rate. However if I was staying working I go for a complete beef system ideally store to finish, but calf to beef or Suckler to beef would be decent options as well.

A few lads in the discussion group have robots, they all seem happy enough with them, but they did say that even though they don't milk they don't have less work it's just different.

Bass Reeves

Morris Moss wrote: »

A few lads in the discussion group have robots, they all seem happy enough with them, but they did say that even though they don't milk they don't have less work it's just different.

Yes I agree, all robot would do is take out the physical milking and move work to a time you can do it after work. However it might allow him to continue dairying with his father help for the next 10years. However if he wishes to continuing work a beef operation is the most likely choice. Suckler would still require time tied to calving and an exceptionally busy spring. A tidy beef operation with BPS, enviormental scheme etc would generate a 60k+ profit on a land bank of that size for 20-30 hours a week

Siamsa Sessions

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A tidy beef operation with BPS, enviormental scheme etc would generate a 60k+ profit on a land bank of that size for 20-30 hours a week

Comparing beef to dairy is interesting. I bumped into a neighbour last week who used to do calf-to-beef but switched to dairy in 2019.

He has 40 acres grazing around the parlour and an out farm leased 6-7 miles away. He's milking 45 cows now and does some baling/wrapping on the side (like he always did).

Decent SFP as he received some entitlements from the National Reserve a few years back. Good operator and a welder by trade, he's no slave but isn't afraid of work either. Only thing he had to finance he said was a 30k slatted unit for slurry storage, so no massive loan.

Reckons he had as much profit with the cattle as he has now with the cows, but with extra work involved. The milk cheque every month, compared to a few beef cheques in Autumn, is the only big advantage, he said.

onrail

Thanks for all the feedback lads. No such thing as a bad suggestion. I get what you’re saying about beef working in best with off-farm work, but how sustainable is the market likely to be long term? Things don’t seem to be going on a great trajectory at the moment?

Mulumpy

I used to manage to juggle a job with dairying for few years but got out 5 years ago. Have a small land base and family was expanding so something had to give. I enjoyed my job more than milking though. Kept dry stock for couple of years but started contract rearing this year. It ties in nicely with the job so happy how things are going so far and have lots of time for family as well.

greenfield21

Don't forget about the dairy market either, these good times don't last forever. Alot of farmers now entering dairying here with possibly more supply coming online in the years ahead will only take price one way. At least you are already supplying a processor so no issues getting supply out the gate.

Bass Reeves

onrail wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback lads. No such thing as a bad suggestion. I get what you’re saying about beef working in best with off-farm work, but how sustainable is the market likely to be long term? Things don’t seem to be going on a great trajectory at the moment?

If you do store to beef you work on margin. With the the land base you have even if payments are flattened you are looking at a BPS of 16.5k add in ANC of 3.5-4k an enviormental scheme 5k. That the bone if 25k after costs. After that it a matter if designing a system that suits you. I imagine with a beef and dairy operation already you have housing for 100+ cattle maybe even near 150. Buying stores in the autumn and finishing following summer/autumn if you cannot make another 30k you might as well sell it.

onrail

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you do store to beef you work on margin. With the the land base you have even if payments are flattened you are looking at a BPS of 16.5k add in ANC of 3.5-4k an enviormental scheme 5k. That the bone if 25k after costs. After that it a matter if designing a system that suits you. I imagine with a beef and dairy operation already you have housing for 100+ cattle maybe even near 150. Buying stores in the autumn and finishing following summer/autumn if you cannot make another 30k you might as well sell it.

Funnily enough, selling up is the one thing that’s off limits!
Nah that’s definitely food for thought thanks. Finishing never even crossed my mind for some reason, but I’ll look into it. I’ve probably a bit more grá for dairying, but it has its obvious drawbacks

Siamsa Sessions

Could you take a "career break" from the current job? Say for 12 months? And then give dairying a go full-time for those 12 months.

If not, would it be very difficult to get another job after a year out of the sector if you decided dairying and living at home wasn't for you?

Grueller

It depends on your off farm job. I am doing it at the moment.
My off farm job used to be more flexible as to when I wanted to work but my work practices have now changed and it works ok for me.
I am only a new entrant and will only milk 50-60 cows. My off farm job hours are 9:30 to 1:30 every day as I reduced from full time a couple of years ago. My job was an €80ish thousand per year job, now is a €40ish per year for the reduced hours.
I live 5 miles from work so the commute is 10 minutes each way.
The way the day pans out is I rise at 5.45, and in the parlour setting up for 6.15. Walk in the cows and milking started by 6.45 most mornings. Cows back in the field and me in the house by 8.15.
Home and in the yard at 2.30. Do a few jobs, milk at 5.30. Home 7.15. That's the gist of the day. I don't think its possible if you work any longer of a day or any further away than I do.
Feel free to question me on it.

Timmaay

Mooooo wrote: »

On my own here with a lad 3 days a week at 126 cows aim to get to 140 cows on 160 acres with a 10 acre outfarm all heifers and silage on block at the moment. Have a land loan which I'll be paying for another 15 years yet along with inherited debt but that should be gone in 3 years. If I can get the heifers off farm may go to 170/ 180 but will need facilities to be upgraded. Some need to be upgraded as is

Moo what's the rough plan labour wise as you move up the numbers? Naturally heading that direction here also, and I have considered options along the way such as fulltime labour unit, partnerships etc, at the minute I've 3 different local lads on part time which maybe only happened because of covid, however its worked out alot better than I expected so I'll probably stick with it moving forward if I can, the main aim is to farm off the repetitive jobs like milking, mowing, Fert, winter feeding etc. It's largely how supermarkets work 2bh, a roster with a dozen or more people all on part time hours, I obviously don't need that many employees but it's the sort of model I'm basically heading towards.

onrail

Grueller wrote: »

It depends on your off farm job. I am doing it at the moment.
My off farm job used to be more flexible as to when I wanted to work but my work practices have now changed and it works ok for me.
I am only a new entrant and will only milk 50-60 cows. My off farm job hours are 9:30 to 1:30 every day as I reduced from full time a couple of years ago. My job was an €80ish thousand per year job, now is a €40ish per year for the reduced hours.
I live 5 miles from work so the commute is 10 minutes each way.
The way the day pans out is I rise at 5.45, and in the parlour setting up for 6.15. Walk in the cows and milking started by 6.45 most mornings. Cows back in the field and me in the house by 8.15.
Home and in the yard at 2.30. Do a few jobs, milk at 5.30. Home 7.15. That's the gist of the day. I don't think its possible if you work any longer of a day or any further away than I do.
Feel free to question me on it.

Sounds like you have it pretty ideal tbh - 40k on those hours at a workplace close to home is really excellent. Would you mind me asking what you work at outside the farm?

I'm probably looking at 2/3 that amount and my closest feasible workplace is over an hour away. The hope is though that WFH will become the new standard with very occasional trips to the office or site are needed.

Do you have anyone keeping an eye on the place while you're at the office?

Grueller

onrail wrote: »

Sounds like you have it pretty ideal tbh - 40k on those hours at a workplace close to home is really excellent. Would you mind me asking what you work at outside the farm?

I'm probably looking at 2/3 that amount and my closest feasible workplace is over an hour away. The hope is though that WFH will become the new standard with very occasional trips to the office or site are needed.

Do you have anyone keeping an eye on the place while you're at the office?

PM sent

Stan27

Go full time farming.
If most of your land is down the road buy a zero grazer.
All depends on your finances of course

Bass Reeves

Stan27 wrote: »

Go full time farming.
If most of your land is down the road buy a zero grazer.
All depends on your finances of course

Very hard to give up a 50k+/year job maybe with ancillary benefits such as HI, phone and a van.

Stan27

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Very hard to give up a 50k+/year job maybe with ancillary benefits such as HI, phone and a van.

True, but he would have a good lifestyle if he wanted it.

Bazzer007

I have an agreement with my employer that I work 3 days at the office and one half day at home each week. My job is a 1 hour drive from the farm so that's very difficult, but my father is working fulltime on the farm so that's the only reason it works for now although he is close to retirement. I couldn't imagine operating the farm and working f/t without having someone working f/t for you. Too many things can go wrong in diarying and your work life balance would be terrible. We've invested heavily over the years on upgrading the farm to make life easier but it is still very difficult to manage both. Luckily my employer is good to me and the pay is good. In time, I will need to make a serious decision on what road I will take. Your missus would also need to understand what it takes to be a farmer and to also work on the side. For now, I will stick to the plan and keep improving the farm bit by bit to make life easier until I decide my path. Whatever you do don't work yourself to an early grave.

Siamsa Sessions

Stan27 wrote: »

True, but he would have a good lifestyle if he wanted it.

Agreed.

Happiness comes not from having more but from needing less.

Can't remember where I read that but seems apt on days like today when you're working outside and the heat of sun combines with the blue sky to make farming seem a great occupation

Cattlepen

Grueller wrote: »

It depends on your off farm job. I am doing it at the moment.
My off farm job used to be more flexible as to when I wanted to work but my work practices have now changed and it works ok for me.
I am only a new entrant and will only milk 50-60 cows. My off farm job hours are 9:30 to 1:30 every day as I reduced from full time a couple of years ago. My job was an €80ish thousand per year job, now is a €40ish per year for the reduced hours.
I live 5 miles from work so the commute is 10 minutes each way.
The way the day pans out is I rise at 5.45, and in the parlour setting up for 6.15. Walk in the cows and milking started by 6.45 most mornings. Cows back in the field and me in the house by 8.15.
Home and in the yard at 2.30. Do a few jobs, milk at 5.30. Home 7.15. That's the gist of the day. I don't think its possible if you work any longer of a day or any further away than I do.
Feel free to question me on it.

Well done to you sir. You have truly found the “sweet spot”. It’s a long enough day but you have the best of both worlds and a good salary along with it. That’s a brilliant situation. Many would be envious

Mooooo

Timmaay wrote: »

Moo what's the rough plan labour wise as you move up the numbers? Naturally heading that direction here also, and I have considered options along the way such as fulltime labour unit, partnerships etc, at the minute I've 3 different local lads on part time which maybe only happened because of covid, however its worked out alot better than I expected so I'll probably stick with it moving forward if I can, the main aim is to farm off the repetitive jobs like milking, mowing, Fert, winter feeding etc. It's largely how supermarkets work 2bh, a roster with a dozen or more people all on part time hours, I obviously don't need that many employees but it's the sort of model I'm basically heading towards.

It'll depend on how the farm would grow. At the moment thinking that if suitable contract rearing can be found that I would keep the current man at the 3 days and then perhaps try to get extra help in the spring on the days he is not here perhaps just for straight forward work such as feeding etc as you mention there. Contract rearing would also take a bit of pressure off facilities as well.
Otherwise it's rent ground for heifers and have a full labour unit be that 2 split over half the week or 1 person fulltime. One issue I have is a rel. high level of existing debt so spending on facities and labour in the next number of years will be difficult on that front. Ground hard enough to come by around these parts as well. Get to the 140 first and go from there anyway

onrail

Thanks for the replies folks

richie123

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Agreed.

Happiness comes not from having more but from needing less.

Can't remember where I read that but seems apt on days like today when you're working outside and the heat of sun combines with the blue sky to make farming seem a great occupation

Your forgetting the 6 weeks of non stop rain and howling wind not too long ago :)

Dakota Dan

richie123 wrote: »

Your forgetting the 6 weeks of non stop rain and howling wind not too long ago :)

6 months, from mid September straight after the ploughing up to the end of March.

Buford T. Justice XIX

There's a good few part time dairying round me, north Kerry. Some are reps who wouldn't be able to go into a yard before 10am anyway, others work locally and can pop back home if needed for calving. One farm has a retired vet father and fulltime engineer son, recent entrants into dairying who also grow cereals and finish cattle and cut their own silage.

Organisation and investment in facilities would be the two important things. And having someone around who can check calvings and tip around at a few jobs like moving a fence and spreading fertiliser helps. A father/brother/neighbour like that is brilliant to have access to.

And a very understanding OH also helps.

Water John

Or else you have an ex wife. Can tell you the dairying wouldn't pay the cost of that.

tanko

Water John wrote: »

Or else you have an ex wife. Can tell you the dairying wouldn't pay the cost of that.

Walk up the aisle with a farm, walk down it with half a farm:D