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Covid opening and the ring road

  • 18-05-2020 8:06am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 43,746 ✭✭✭✭ 6


    Interesting to see what impact this will have on the ring road project. Will the money be there for it? Or other similar projects for that matter. My assumption is a lot of them will be postponed.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    6 wrote: »
    Interesting to see what impact this will have on the ring road project. Will the money be there for it? Or other similar projects for that matter. My assumption is a lot of them will be postponed.

    On the contrary, during a downturn in the economy is exactly when major infrastructure projects are best done.

    There is going to be a lot of money printed in Europe to kick start economies again with a large portion of the monies being directed at infrastructure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 511 ChewyLouie


    I think the two main threats to the ring road are the possible trialling of improved cycling and pedestrian facilities (which may incorporate public transport at a later stage, post-Covid) as well as the possibility of the greens being part of the next government formation.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 youngrun


    ChewyLouie wrote: »
    I think the two main threats to the ring road are the possible trialling of improved cycling and pedestrian facilities (which may incorporate public transport at a later stage, post-Covid) as well as the possibility of the greens being part of the next government formation.

    Yes Greens will have a different view

    I wonder also will the entire Ring road submission need to be redone given the likely change in traffic volumes and demand etc post this crisis


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    Moved out from news thread as this will spark its own discussion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,887 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    ChewyLouie wrote: »
    I think the two main threats to the ring road are the possible trialling of improved cycling and pedestrian facilities (which may incorporate public transport at a later stage, post-Covid) as well as the possibility of the greens being part of the next government formation.

    I think that Covid will have a major negative effect on public transport viability. Even I am considering buying a car, and that something I never expected to say.

    Bicycles are sweet in sunny weather. But hopeless for anyone with a dodgy knee (me) or who lives in an apartment without storage (also me).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 511 ChewyLouie


    But hopeless for anyone with a dodgy knee (me) or who lives in an apartment without storage (also me).

    How about a well planned electric city bike scheme? Or secure community bike parking/storage?

    It's true that cycling isn't going to suit everyone. Just like cars won't suit everyone, public transport won't suit everyone, electric scooters won't suit everyone etc...

    It's a matter of finding a good future-proof balance of each of the above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    ChewyLouie wrote: »
    How about a well planned electric city bike scheme? Or secure community bike parking/storage?

    It's true that cycling isn't going to suit everyone. Just like cars won't suit everyone, public transport won't suit everyone, electric scooters won't suit everyone etc...

    It's a matter of finding a good future-proof balance of each of the above.

    Yup and I think you will see the bike to work scheme being updated to account for the prices of ebikes


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    DaCor wrote: »
    On the contrary, during a downturn in the economy is exactly when major infrastructure projects are best done.

    There is going to be a lot of money printed in Europe to kick start economies again with a large portion of the monies being directed at infrastructure.

    Note that the ECB's purchases of Govt debt do not imply more spending on infrastructure.

    Govts may decide to increases infrastructure expenditure, yes maybe.

    And they may borrow to do so, yes.

    And then may feel that it's good that the ECB will be a large-scale buyer of Govt debt in the secondary markets, yes.

    But the ECB does not directly finance infrastructure expenditure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,887 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    ChewyLouie wrote: »
    How about a well planned electric city bike scheme? Or secure community bike parking/storage?

    It's true that cycling isn't going to suit everyone. Just like cars won't suit everyone, public transport won't suit everyone, electric scooters won't suit everyone etc...

    It's a matter of finding a good future-proof balance of each of the above.

    How exactly do you future proof shared transport (which is what our current public transport really is) in a socially distancing world? Redesign buses so they are made up with a spine with own-door single-seat pods that self-disinfect between uses???


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭ Worn Out


    DaCor wrote: »
    Yup and I think you will see the bike to work scheme being updated to account for the prices of ebikes

    This is what they did a little while ago in the UK to account for the higher prices of ebikes. It’ll be a good move forward.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 511 ChewyLouie


    How exactly do you future proof shared transport (which is what our current public transport really is) in a socially distancing world? Redesign buses so they are made up with a spine with own-door single-seat pods that self-disinfect between uses???

    For future proofing I was referring to handling population growth... without falling into the trap of induced demand from road construction.

    Anyway I'm jumping out of this thread early before I get sucked into another spiralling debate against incessant narrow minded negativity. Thankfully we don't have to reinvent the wheel, other European cities have showcased solutions that work brilliantly, we can pick a blend of these. Hopefully Covid will get us looking at things through a new lens now and start questioning old solutions. Over and out!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    I think that Covid will have a major negative effect on public transport viability. Even I am considering buying a car, and that something I never expected to say.

    Bicycles are sweet in sunny weather. But hopeless for anyone with a dodgy knee (me) or who lives in an apartment without storage (also me).

    Plenty of apartment dwelling OAPs all over the manage a bike easily, storage and usage. It's really not a big deal. Injuries notwithstanding obv


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    How exactly do you future proof shared transport (which is what our current public transport really is) in a socially distancing world? Redesign buses so they are made up with a spine with own-door single-seat pods that self-disinfect between uses???

    Please don't try derailing another thread with your silliness. Ask serious questions, get serious answers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Geuze wrote: »
    Note that the ECB's purchases of Govt debt do not imply more spending on infrastructure.

    Govts may decide to increases infrastructure expenditure, yes maybe.

    And they may borrow to do so, yes.

    And then may feel that it's good that the ECB will be a large-scale buyer of Govt debt in the secondary markets, yes.

    But the ECB does not directly finance infrastructure expenditure.

    Who said anything about the ECB???

    It's the EIB that fund infrastructure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,887 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    DaCor wrote: »
    Please don't try derailing another thread with your silliness. Ask serious questions, get serious answers.

    I've asked an absolutely serious question.

    Pretty disappointed with the response so far, TBH. Speaks volumes about unwillingness to engage in the real, difficult questions which practical concerns, and now the the Covid situation, have raised.

    The really funny bit is that I'm the only who has actually been living the lifestyle which some advocates here promote: I live in the city centre, don't own a car, only rent very infrequently, usually use public (ie shared) transport. Whereas most others spout on about it, but own cars and use 'em at least weekly. I'm extremely disappointed to be considering car ownership - and still keen to find any way I can avoid it (are scooters legal yet???)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    With the Greens about to enter Government, I’m seeing the writing on the wall. This project is toast.

    With that in mind, and me about to make the Big Move to the place I’ll probably stay for the next twenty years, if not my life, I’m abandoning Galway. Without the bypass the place is at capacity, and the best way I can serve Galway’s green masters is not to pollute it further trying to raise a family, build a career, or even a business.

    If I’m wrong, and the road gets built, I’ll be back and push for pedestrianisation in the city centre that yhe road will facilitate. In the meantime, the perpetual row can continue without me.

    I’m off to Shannon.

    It’s Connemara I feel sorry for. The towns there are on a limb downstream from a tourniquet, and dying a slow death because of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,329 ✭✭✭✭ ben.schlomo


    SeaSlacker wrote: »
    With the Greens about to enter Government, I’m seeing the writing on the wall. This project is toast.

    With that in mind, and me about to make the Big Move to the place I’ll probably stay for the next twenty years, if not my life, I’m abandoning Galway. Without the bypass the place is at capacity, and the best way I can serve Galway’s green masters is not to pollute it further trying to raise a family, build a career, or even a business.

    If I’m wrong, and the road gets built, I’ll be back and push for pedestrianisation in the city centre that yhe road will facilitate. In the meantime, the perpetual row can continue without me.

    I’m off to Shannon.

    It’s Connemara I feel sorry for. The towns there are on a limb downstream from a tourniquet, and dying a slow death because of it.

    Connemara dying a slow death? I don't think Moycullen has ever been as busy/had as much activity, Oughterard is still as busy as ever and Clifden is busy during the on season. Strange.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    Connemara dying a slow death? I don't think Moycullen has ever been as busy/had as much activity, Oughterard is still as busy as ever and Clifden is busy during the on season. Strange.

    I was referring to manufacturing, but hey you keep your little quaint garden village ideas, they’ll sustain you when you visit for 2 weeks and then never darken their door for the rest of the year...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,329 ✭✭✭✭ ben.schlomo


    SeaSlacker wrote: »
    I was referring to manufacturing, but hey you keep your little quaint garden village ideas, they’ll sustain you when you visit for 2 weeks and then never darken their door for the rest of the year...

    Connemara as a centre of manufacturing? Two weeks? Sustain me? Darkening doors? You ok hun?


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    Bring the civility up please.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    I've asked an absolutely serious question.

    No, you didn't, you asked
    Redesign buses so they are made up with a spine with own-door single-seat pods that self-disinfect between uses???

    Moving on...
    Pretty disappointed with the response so far, TBH. Speaks volumes about unwillingness to engage in the real, difficult questions which practical concerns, and now the the Covid situation, have raised.

    The really funny bit is that I'm the only who has actually been living the lifestyle which some advocates here promote: I live in the city centre, don't own a car, only rent very infrequently, usually use public (ie shared) transport. Whereas most others spout on about it, but own cars and use 'em at least weekly. I'm extremely disappointed to be considering car ownership - and still keen to find any way I can avoid it (are scooters legal yet???)

    PT is not going away and is still available for use. All that is required of users is face masks, which I think are going to end up becoming the norm. The exact same precautions required for PT will be required for busy stores.

    Best as I can tell, options are
    • PT - Mask required
    • Walk
    • Cycle - Pushbike
    • Cycle - eBike
    • Scooter - Illegal I think
    • Car
    • Taxi - mask required??
    • Skateboard
    • Rollerblades
    • Motorbike
    • Moped
    • Mobility Scooter

    Some of those might suit, some might not, choose what is best for you. Thats not an exhaustive list btw, so there may be other options too.

    As for the ring road, I'm really on the fence. Some days I think its vital, other days I think its nuts that we are looking at spending half a billion euros on a road for a city that can be cycled end-to-end in about 35 mins.

    Imagine, we have a city where, for anyone who both lives and works in it, they can get from home to work in 35 mins on a bike. Thats nothing.

    Tha GTS stated that 5% of Galway commuters cycled. Even just getting that to 20% would go a long way towards addressing congestion issues in the city.

    Note, I'm not saying cycling is the only solution, but that it has to be a part of the solution, with other facets being P&R's around the city, more frequent PT routes, infrastructure for cycling/walking safely etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,887 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    DaCor wrote: »
    No, you didn't, you asked



    Moving on...



    PT is not going away and is still available for use. All that is required of users is face masks, which I think are going to end up becoming the norm. The exact same precautions required for PT will be required for busy stores.

    Best as I can tell, options are
    • PT - Mask required
    • Walk
    • Cycle - Pushbike
    • Cycle - eBike
    • Scooter - Illegal I think
    • Car
    • Taxi - mask required??
    • Skateboard
    • Rollerblades
    • Motorbike
    • Moped
    • Mobility Scooter

    Some of those might suit, some might not, choose what is best for you. Thats not an exhaustive list btw, so there may be other options too.

    As for the ring road, I'm really on the fence. Some days I think its vital, other days I think its nuts that we are looking at spending half a billion euros on a road for a city that can be cycled end-to-end in about 35 mins.

    Imagine, we have a city where, for anyone who both lives and works in it, they can get from home to work in 35 mins on a bike. Thats nothing.

    Tha GTS stated that 5% of Galway commuters cycled. Even just getting that to 20% would go a long way towards addressing congestion issues in the city.

    Note, I'm not saying cycling is the only solution, but that it has to be a part of the solution, with other facets being P&R's around the city, more frequent PT routes, infrastructure for cycling/walking safely etc

    And you have totally missed my point about viability.

    Flimsy masks (which most people are too stupid to use correctly) aren't going to change anything. If I am sick, a non-surgical mask may (not conclusively proven for this virus, but believed to be likely) reduce the chance that I infect other people. But it will not protect ME from catching anything. That doesn't inspire me to catch a bus, when I have any other option.

    Without a fundamental redesign (my suggestion was 100% serious, btw; there was a cable-car similar to that, sans the disinfectant, in the town where I grew up), I don't believe that many people will be happy to get back into crowded buses, or even moderately full ones. That means that there won't be so much demand, so there won't be so many buses, so there won't be so much demand, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Excluding a resurgence in transmission rates, life is going to return to normal faster than folks might think, albeit with required changes in behaviour (masks, distancing, hand washing) . Come October the restrictions will be a distant memory for most but the desire to distance and protect oneself will likely remain.

    By that time, the amount of space available for private cars on the road will have been reduced, on street parking will be reduced and this will be to facilitate an increase in the numbers of walkers and cyclists.

    Does this provide justification for or against the ring road, I don't know. It depends on how ambitious and courageous Galway City Council are in implementing measures in a similar vein to DCC.

    For example, if GCC go the whole hog and wipe out on street parking (800 spaces) that would leave 4,100 off street public parking spaces, essentially a 20% reduction. This is planned as part of the GTS and they will never have a better opportunity to implement it. That alone would be the nudge a lot of folks need to choose a more sustainable alternative which again would contribute to the reduction in car traffic and the congestion it causes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭ gordongekko


    DaCor wrote: »
    Come October the restrictions will be a distant memory for most but the desire to distance and protect oneself will likely remain.

    Thats flu season. Cant imagine many people wanting to be on a bus with someone near you coughing


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭ beardybrewer


    By every metric car use is expected to explode as people try to avoid each other.

    Sod the bog and build it. Infrastructure projects will be crucial to rebuild the economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,887 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    DaCor wrote: »
    ....but the desire to distance and protect oneself will likely remain.

    By that time, the amount of space available for private cars on the road will have been reduced, ..... This is planned as part of the GTS and they will never have a better opportunity to implement it. .

    Pre-Covid thinking for a post-Covid world.

    Plans are going to face some substantial revisions methinks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭ what_traffic


    By every metric car use is expected to explode as people try to avoid each other.

    Sod the bog and build it. Infrastructure projects will be crucial to rebuild the economy.

    What bog and what metrics?

    Reckon it will be put on ice for next Gov(5 yrs) regardless who is forming it; greenfield road schemes are not sufficiently labour intensive as building houses; however they do lend themselves to social distancing. Reckon 2035 completion now at the earlist if it ever goes ahead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭ ?Cee?view


    SeaSlacker wrote: »
    With the Greens about to enter Government, I’m seeing the writing on the wall. This project is toast.

    With that in mind, and me about to make the Big Move to the place I’ll probably stay for the next twenty years, if not my life, I’m abandoning Galway. Without the bypass the place is at capacity, and the best way I can serve Galway’s green masters is not to pollute it further trying to raise a family, build a career, or even a business.

    If I’m wrong, and the road gets built, I’ll be back and push for pedestrianisation in the city centre that yhe road will facilitate. In the meantime, the perpetual row can continue without me.

    I’m off to Shannon.

    It’s Connemara I feel sorry for. The towns there are on a limb downstream from a tourniquet, and dying a slow death because of it.

    You're so right. If the Greens get to a position where they can influence matters, Galway is finished. They were a major factor in stopping the road last time.

    Connemara is completely outside the interest of your usual urban Green type. To them it's a holiday park occasionally to be visited, not an area where sustainable livelihoods for people need to be maintained.

    Good luck in your move. Shannon though? A bit soulless. Try Ennis maybe?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭ what_traffic


    DaCor wrote: »
    Does this provide justification for or against the ring road, I don't know. It depends on how ambitious and courageous Galway City Council are in implementing measures in a similar vein to DCC.

    For example, if GCC go the whole hog and wipe out on street parking (800 spaces) that would leave 4,100 off street public parking spaces, essentially a 20% reduction. This is planned as part of the GTS and they will never have a better opportunity to implement it. That alone would be the nudge a lot of folks need to choose a more sustainable alternative which again would contribute to the reduction in car traffic and the congestion it causes.

    Just cannot see it happening to any huge degree - unless the business community really force there hand here? Very little done to date in the Spatial Area Zone which in itself is very limited. In ways its not there fault - they have very limited power, knowledge and resources. The way Local Goverment is setup in this Country makes this inevitable. Events like this Pandemic really show up these limiatations.
    The whole system for requesting changes is not very transparent - does not inspire confidence. Static forms(not online); cannot see previous requests.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Just cannot see it happening to any huge degree - unless the business community really force there hand here? Very little done to date in the Spatial Area Zone which in itself is very limited. In ways its not there fault - they have very limited power, knowledge and resources. The way Local Goverment is setup in this Country makes this inevitable. Events like this Pandemic really show up these limiatations.
    The whole system for requesting changes is not very transparent - does not inspire confidence. Static forms(not online); cannot see previous requests.

    Aye, maybe, but Ross has issued direction to Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway city councils to start implementing "mobility" measures asap with the aim to facilitate a major increase in the numebrs of walkers and cyclists. What will be done and how well it will be done remains to be seen. I remain (naively) hopeful though

    The reluctance Mrs. Bumble mentions in regards to using crowded PT is exactly the driver to invest in these measures asap. The roads around Galway were already over capacity prior to Covid so post-covid either there are alternatives to cars/PT in place or get ready for 2 hr commutes.

    While the ring road may help, the fact it won't arrive for at least a decade (if its ever built) means there is no point including in the list of measures for mobility in terms of post-covid mobility.


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