Social welfare lied about me

Leham

Hi can anyone please help me as I dont know what to do.

A bit of back story, im a sub tutor on the unqualified rate of pay, last year 2018 - 2019 I worked in the same school all year and from January my hours were cut to part time so social welfare put me on casual dockets, I remained on these until the Summer when I went on to full social welfare payment.

At the end of September 2019 I got a subbing job in a new school, initially it was supposed to be for one week, I told social welfare and my payment was suspended. I collected for that week and informed social welfare that I had collected my payment, it remained suspended for two weeks. I then told social welfare the employment had ended and provided a letter from the school.
After this the school contacted me intermittently over the next 4 weeks. During this I worked 1 - 10 hours a week. I always told social welfare I was working, the weeks I worked 1 or so hours, I collected my social welfare (informed them I was doing so) as I was not getting paid much, I could literally be getting a couple of euro for a week. I didnt collect money on the weeks I was working more hours, I made a point of not doing so but obviously I have no way of proving this. I wasnt working on the mid term break and collected for this week, like all non permanent school staff do.

During this time, social welfare never tried to change my payment to casual dockets, they never tried to dock the days or hours I worked from my pay and never suggested I go onto education workers. I didnt know what payments I should be on and my local social welfare were not very unhelpful


During the mid term break I went back to social welfare to try and get onto the casual dockets as I had been on the previous acedemic year. I was given forms, filled them out, had my hours and wages filled out and signed by the school and brought everything I was asked to bring to social welfare.
A few weeks past and I got a letter stating my payment dating back to May (When I finished in the previous school) has been disqualified and that I owe social welfare 1015 euro.

They said my average income was 230 a week during September/October. When I questioned this, they took the amount I had earned over that entire time and broke it down, spreading it across each week, so even though in one week I might have earned less than 50 euro, in another week I might have earned 300 (and wouldnt have collected payment for this week), they averaged all my pay it over the entire month and said I earned 230 a week.

Any money I owe to social welfare I am more than willing to pay back would not expect to claim if I was working/earning anything close to the social welfare payment but theyre saying I took out money every week which I know I didnt I just have no way of proving, I only took out money when I was really stuck and working very few or no hours and I always informed social welfare.

When I questioned this I was put in contact with the deciding officer, he contacted me and when through my pay in revenue, he was focusing on pay that I got when I wasnt claiming, I got 3 weeks full time teaching in an ETB school in November where I was earning the qualified rate, they pay monthly so I got the pay in one lumpsum, he read it out to me and said it like I was rolling in money and looking for social welfare. - they should have put me on the education workers which I later found out, from staff in my school, that I should be on this payment. Instead they stayed focused on my application for casual dockets which I only applied for at the time because I didnt think I was going to get many more hours and the work was so intermittent, I didnt want to stop taking the work but I wouldnt have been able to live off it. If I had known I was going to get further hours and even full time hours, I wouldnt have applied for casual dockets but thats how it is being a casual teacher, you are literally waiting by the phone day to day.

I went to social welfare who told me to keep having the dockets filled out by the school and to continue handing them in so this is what I did, while in with the secretary in the school, she told me to apply for the education workers as thats what she gets.

I asked about it in social welfare and was told no I am not entitled to that as my income is too high. I said I had been on it the previous year and was told the system has changed now and im no longer entitled to it at all.

I was adivsed to have my application sent for an appeal, which I requested, I was called in for an appointment with the deciding officer as I had to sign a letter which I had sent in regarding the issue, while there the deciding officer didnt want me to try and appeal, so he tried to push me into writing 'I do not want this sent for appeal' on the letter under my signature.. I said no to him and he left it at that, the appeal was sent off.

Around Jan/Feb while in the staff room in work I got speaking to another sub teacher who is contracted, on a higher pay scale than me and was working more hours, she said she was getting the education workers, she also goes to the same intreo office as me.. I said I was told I wasnt entitled to this and she said no, I am entitled. So I went back in to social welfare that afternoon and told them I should be on education workers, the woman at the desk belligerently handed me forms to get filled out by the school. I got the filled out, brought them back to social welfare, the person behind the desk - different from the previous woman, told me they wearnt the right forms and gave me the right ones, so I had to get those ones signed and handed in which I did. - I recieved no payment for mid terms as my previous claim was still suspended so I was told I couldnt get any payments until that suspension is lifted.

Yesterday I finally got my appeal back stating that it has been denied my social welfare has been stopped and I owe them 1015... the part of this that is really getting to me, apart from the fact I didnt claim for every one of those weeks I worked in Spetmeber/October, and the besides the fact social welfare repeatedly gave me wrong information and messed me around all year, on the letter I got back it says no Payslips were provided by the appellent - I did give payslips, I remember having them photocopied. It also says "It is noted that unsuccessful attempts were made by the intreo office to contact the appellant regarding her case'

I was in constant communication with the social welfare, at no point did they unnsuccessfully try to contact me or advise me in anyway. If anything, I was trying to get correct information off them for months.

This has annoyed me as I was completely honest with them and I feel this comment implies that I wasnt, it sounds like they are attempting to throw me under the bus to cover their own backs. This is either a mistake on their part or a blatant lie on their part and I have every intention of taking it further. What is the point in anyone being honest with social welfare if they will turn around and say you were dishonest when you wearnt.

I rang the appeals office but they said I need to send a letter to another department. I rang my local social welfare but the woman who answered told me theyre only dealing with Covid payments and I will have to email. I asked her if I can still get the education workers payment, she told me she doesnt know and doesnt want to give me the wrong information.

I just dont know what to do or where to turn? I do owe social welfare which I have no problem paying but I dont owe as much as theyre saying I do. I also have been messed around by them all year, I shouldnt have to find out off other staff what payment I should be on, thats the jobs of the staff in social welfare. I am fuming that they lied and said they made unsuccessful attempts to contact me.

Can anyone help? I dont know what to do?.

muffler

Condense all that into about 12 - 15 lines and someone might read it

Leham

muffler wrote: »

Condense all that into about 12 - 15 lines and someone might read it

I cant its too complicated, I feel like ive been messed around by them since Septmeber and it's lead up to them blatantly lying and saying there was noted unsuccessful attempts to contact me regarding the situation.

I know its a long read but if anyone can take the time id really appreciate it as I dont know where else to go at this stage.

Thanks.

byhookorbycrook

Contact your union .

Leham

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Contact your union .

I tried, im with the TUI, after weeks of tryin to get through to someone, they told me they cant get involved with anything to do with social welfare as they have their own rules. Tbh they didnt listen to me, I wasnt even speakin to the representative as I couldnt get in contact with him, he wouldnt answer his phone. This was from secretary after she contacted him.

Ginger83

Leham wrote: »

Hi can anyone please help me as I dont know what to do.

A bit of back story, im a sub tutor on the unqualified rate of pay, last year 2018 - 2019 I worked in the same school all year and from January my hours were cut to part time so social welfare put me on casual dockets, I remained on these until the Summer when I went on to full social welfare payment.

At the end of September 2019 I got a subbing job in a new school, initially it was supposed to be for one week, I told social welfare and my payment was suspended. I collected for that week and informed social welfare that I had collected my payment, it remained suspended for two weeks. I then told social welfare the employment had ended and provided a letter from the school.
After this the school contacted me intermittently over the next 4 weeks. During this I worked 1 - 10 hours a week. I always told social welfare I was working, the weeks I worked 1 or so hours, I collected my social welfare (informed them I was doing so) as I was not getting paid much, I could literally be getting a couple of euro for a week. I didnt collect money on the weeks I was working more hours, I made a point of not doing so but obviously I have no way of proving this. I wasnt working on the mid term break and collected for this week, like all non permanent school staff do.

During this time, social welfare never tried to change my payment to casual dockets, they never tried to dock the days or hours I worked from my pay and never suggested I go onto education workers. I didnt know what payments I should be on and my local social welfare were not very unhelpful


During the mid term break I went back to social welfare to try and get onto the casual dockets as I had been on the previous acedemic year. I was given forms, filled them out, had my hours and wages filled out and signed by the school and brought everything I was asked to bring to social welfare.
A few weeks past and I got a letter stating my payment dating back to May (When I finished in the previous school) has been disqualified and that I owe social welfare 1015 euro.

They said my average income was 230 a week during September/October. When I questioned this, they took the amount I had earned over that entire time and broke it down, spreading it across each week, so even though in one week I might have earned less than 50 euro, in another week I might have earned 300 (and wouldnt have collected payment for this week), they averaged all my pay it over the entire month and said I earned 230 a week.

Any money I owe to social welfare I am more than willing to pay back would not expect to claim if I was working/earning anything close to the social welfare payment but theyre saying I took out money every week which I know I didnt I just have no way of proving, I only took out money when I was really stuck and working very few or no hours and I always informed social welfare.

When I questioned this I was put in contact with the deciding officer, he contacted me and when through my pay in revenue, he was focusing on pay that I got when I wasnt claiming, I got 3 weeks full time teaching in an ETB school in November where I was earning the qualified rate, they pay monthly so I got the pay in one lumpsum, he read it out to me and said it like I was rolling in money and looking for social welfare. - they should have put me on the education workers which I later found out, from staff in my school, that I should be on this payment. Instead they stayed focused on my application for casual dockets which I only applied for at the time because I didnt think I was going to get many more hours and the work was so intermittent, I didnt want to stop taking the work but I wouldnt have been able to live off it. If I had known I was going to get further hours and even full time hours, I wouldnt have applied for casual dockets but thats how it is being a casual teacher, you are literally waiting by the phone day to day.

I went to social welfare who told me to keep having the dockets filled out by the school and to continue handing them in so this is what I did, while in with the secretary in the school, she told me to apply for the education workers as thats what she gets.

I asked about it in social welfare and was told no I am not entitled to that as my income is too high. I said I had been on it the previous year and was told the system has changed now and im no longer entitled to it at all.

I was adivsed to have my application sent for an appeal, which I requested, I was called in for an appointment with the deciding officer as I had to sign a letter which I had sent in regarding the issue, while there the deciding officer didnt want me to try and appeal, so he tried to push me into writing 'I do not want this sent for appeal' on the letter under my signature.. I said no to him and he left it at that, the appeal was sent off.

Around Jan/Feb while in the staff room in work I got speaking to another sub teacher who is contracted, on a higher pay scale than me and was working more hours, she said she was getting the education workers, she also goes to the same intreo office as me.. I said I was told I wasnt entitled to this and she said no, I am entitled. So I went back in to social welfare that afternoon and told them I should be on education workers, the woman at the desk belligerently handed me forms to get filled out by the school. I got the filled out, brought them back to social welfare, the person behind the desk - different from the previous woman, told me they wearnt the right forms and gave me the right ones, so I had to get those ones signed and handed in which I did. - I recieved no payment for mid terms as my previous claim was still suspended so I was told I couldnt get any payments until that suspension is lifted.

Yesterday I finally got my appeal back stating that it has been denied my social welfare has been stopped and I owe them 1015... the part of this that is really getting to me, apart from the fact I didnt claim for every one of those weeks I worked in Spetmeber/October, and the besides the fact social welfare repeatedly gave me wrong information and messed me around all year, on the letter I got back it says no Payslips were provided by the appellent - I did give payslips, I remember having them photocopied. It also says "It is noted that unsuccessful attempts were made by the intreo office to contact the appellant regarding her case'

I was in constant communication with the social welfare, at no point did they unnsuccessfully try to contact me or advise me in anyway. If anything, I was trying to get correct information off them for months.

This has annoyed me as I was completely honest with them and I feel this comment implies that I wasnt, it sounds like they are attempting to throw me under the bus to cover their own backs. This is either a mistake on their part or a blatant lie on their part and I have every intention of taking it further. What is the point in anyone being honest with social welfare if they will turn around and say you were dishonest when you wearnt.

I rang the appeals office but they said I need to send a letter to another department. I rang my local social welfare but the woman who answered told me theyre only dealing with Covid payments and I will have to email. I asked her if I can still get the education workers payment, she told me she doesnt know and doesnt want to give me the wrong information.

I just dont know what to do or where to turn? I do owe social welfare which I have no problem paying but I dont owe as much as theyre saying I do. I also have been messed around by them all year, I shouldnt have to find out off other staff what payment I should be on, thats the jobs of the staff in social welfare. I am fuming that they lied and said they made unsuccessful attempts to contact me.

Can anyone help? I dont know what to do?.

Can you contact your TD ?

scwazrh

Any chance you know a local TD that might listen and see if they can help?

EDIT - Previous post was posted while i typed , sorry for duplicate

Leham

Thanks for the replies.
I have been considering contacting a local TD but wanted to try and resolve it myself first. Going to a TD is last resort.

conndeal

You should appeal to the ombudsman if you have exhausted all your appeals with social welfare. The union wont be able to do anything - they would only deal with issues with your employer.

Get all your facts together, all your correspondence, payslips, dates of visits to Intreo office and outcome of discussion etc. Type up a timeline and state your facts as precisely as possible for each date. Attach copies of all correspondence and send it off to the ombudsman.

Leham

conndeal wrote: »

You should appeal to the ombudsman if you have exhausted all your appeals with social welfare. The union wont be able to do anything - they would only deal with issues with your employer.

Get all your facts together, all your correspondence, payslips, dates of visits to Intreo office and outcome of discussion etc. Type up a timeline and state your facts as precisely as possible for each date. Attach copies of all correspondence and send it off to the ombudsman.

Hi, thanks I have no problem sending them pay slips but all other communication happened over the phone or face to face. I cant disprove anything theyre saying, how can I prove I didnt collect a welfare payment? How I can I prove there wasnt unsuccessful attempts to contact me? also I dont have exact dates of visits to intreo, I never thought id be in this situation where theyd be saying lies about me.

I feel it's their word against mine. I cant believe this is happening, its terrible that they can do this.

splinter65

I’ve been working with people who have issues with DEASP for 15 years and there is no such payment as “education workers”. I’m trying to work out in my head what scheme you are referring to but it’s escaping me at the moment.
What’s happened to you here is that right back at the very start one of two things happened.
1. When you applied for Jobseekers the deciding officer didn’t explain the rules to you at all
OR
2. The rules were explained and you didn’t understand them. That’s understandable as there’s lots of rules and when your working some and claiming some it’s quite complicated, and some DOs aren’t great at explaining.
However, at the end of the day your understanding of your entitlement and the conditions for Jobseekers is quite quite wrong in many ways and you were overpaid by them and that money has to go back in to the pot.
They are absolutely entitled to go back over your employment income for months and months to get an average per week income. Those are the rules. If you income was €230 per week then you would only have been entitled to €100 per week Jobseekers. If you got more then that over that whole period then the amount you got too much will have to be repaid.

splinter65

conndeal wrote: »

You should appeal to the ombudsman if you have exhausted all your appeals with social welfare. The union wont be able to do anything - they would only deal with issues with your employer.

Get all your facts together, all your correspondence, payslips, dates of visits to Intreo office and outcome of discussion etc. Type up a timeline and state your facts as precisely as possible for each date. Attach copies of all correspondence and send it off to the ombudsman.

The ombudsman can only investigate a complaint about the manner in which a case was dealt with and will only investigate when the SW complaints procedures have been exhausted.

cee_jay

Leham wrote: »

how can I prove I didnt collect a welfare payment?

If a payment isn't collected, this is reflected on the social welfare system, it comes back to them as not collected. Ask for statement of all payments made to you.

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.
I have been considering contacting a local TD but wanted to try and resolve it myself first. Going to a TD is last resort.

Even if you sign an Authority to Act form for a TD DEASP will be able to show
1. A copy of the award letter you got initially telling you that you’d been awarded Jobseekers. This letter lays out the terms and conditions and points to the relevant legislation.
2. A detailed account of SW payments you received. When you received them and how much you received each payment and wether the money went into your bank account or the PO and which bank account it went into or a copy of the receipt you got in the PO if you got it there, your signature is on the receipt. Either way they have solid proof of each payment made to you.
3 They will have a print out from revenue (you’ve already seen it) of your income from employment for that period, to match against your income from SW.

It’s hard to argue with the detailed evidence that they will produce at the drop of a hat. Even for a TD.

fed_u

As a subteacher I have experience of dealing with intro - system is so confusing! It sounds like you are in scondary and they do not take the hours into consideration - they count days so if you have three days work of whatever amount of hrs it is classed as a day. You can only claim for remaining days so should be doing X's and Os system. This going on and off the system is a disaster. You can see what you received from welfare online so should have a record

Gatling

splinter65 wrote: »

I’ve been working with people who have issues with DEASP for 15 years and there is no such payment as “education workers”. I’m trying to work out in my head what scheme you are referring to but it’s escaping me at the moment.

Never seen or heard the word the appellant in any shape or form .

The whole story comes across as a leaving cert essay

splinter65

Gatling wrote: »

Never seen or heard the word the appellant in any shape or form .

The whole story comes across as a leaving cert essay

Appellant is an expression the Appeals office use. If you are appealing a refusal of a payment then you are the appellant. The OP has absolutely 0% hope of having this settled in her favour.
SW can produce evidence of every last cent of Jobseekers payment she got. Either she signed for it in the PO or they paid it directly into her bank account.
They also have evidence of every cent of wages she was paid at the same time.
It’s just a question of totting up the figures then it’s clear to see how much is owed.

BohsCeltic

I think someone has already mentioned looking at all your SW payments online once you sign up to mywelfare.ie with at MyGov ID.
Then you can go over the payments to see if they all add up.

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

I’ve been working with people who have issues with DEASP for 15 years and there is no such payment as “education workers”. I’m trying to work out in my head what scheme you are referring to but it’s escaping me at the moment.
What’s happened to you here is that right back at the very start one of two things happened.
1. When you applied for Jobseekers the deciding officer didn’t explain the rules to you at all
OR
2. The rules were explained and you didn’t understand them. That’s understandable as there’s lots of rules and when your working some and claiming some it’s quite complicated, and some DOs aren’t great at explaining.
However, at the end of the day your understanding of your entitlement and the conditions for Jobseekers is quite quite wrong in many ways and you were overpaid by them and that money has to go back in to the pot.
They are absolutely entitled to go back over your employment income for months and months to get an average per week income. Those are the rules. If you income was €230 per week then you would only have been entitled to €100 per week Jobseekers. If you got more then that over that whole period then the amount you got too much will have to be repaid.

Hi Splinter, thank you so much for the helpful reply.

In regards to 'education workers' I might be calling it by the wrong name? It could be school workers? Im unsure of the correct term. Its payment for subsitute teachers and other school workers that dont get paid for holidays. We get forms filled out and signed by the school or department of education/etb for mid terms and Summer holidays. I think it's relatively new, im open to correction but I think it only came in in the last year or two.

I definitly was over payed by them, im not denying that and have no problem paying back what I owe, I would never expect to work and recieve social welfare.
If I was entitled to 100 or so a week, why did they refuse to pay me anything and stop my social welfare completely and why are they expecting me to pay back the full 203 euro for each of those weeks? Even the weeks were I wasnt working at all?.

Also, why are they saying they unnsuccessfully tried to contact me? That is a total lie.

I just want to add, the previous year I was a casual sub in a special school, I was working full days and earning allot more than I was in Septmber just gone. That year I was permitted to sign on x's and o's and they never had a problem with me doing so. Why is it that in September when I started casually teaching for less hours and less pay was I not entitled to anything?

It's too inconsistent..

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

Hi Splinter, thank you so much for the helpful reply.

In regards to 'education workers' I might be calling it by the wrong name? It could be school workers? Im unsure of the correct term. Its payment for subsitute teachers and other school workers that dont get paid for holidays. We get forms filled out and signed by the school or department of education/etb for mid terms and Summer holidays. I think it's relatively new, im open to correction but I think it only came in in the last year or two.

I definitly was over payed by them, im not denying that and have no problem paying back what I owe, I would never expect to work and recieve social welfare.
If I was entitled to 100 or so a week, why did they refuse to pay me anything and stop my social welfare completely and why are they expecting me to pay back the full 203 euro for each of those weeks? Even the weeks were I wasnt working at all?.

Also, why are they saying they unnsuccessfully tried to contact me? That is a total lie.

I just want to add, the previous year I was a casual sub in a special school, I was working full days and earning allot more than I was in Septmber just gone. That year I was permitted to sign on x's and o's and they never had a problem with me doing so. Why is it that in September when I started casually teaching for less hours and less pay was I not entitled to anything?

It's too inconsistent..

Hi
There’s no special SW payment/scheme for teachers. If there was then there would have to be a special scheme for nurses etc and that would be unmanageable. They can’t make special arrangements either for teachers because the system has to be fair for everyone.
If you have an overpayment then you can’t continue getting payments until it’s been agreed about how you are going to pay the money back. That’s why your payment is suspended.
Do you know how much SW you got in total for the months in question?

square ball

Hi Leham were you claiming Jobseeker's Allowance or Benefit?

The circumstances of the friend/colleague you mentioned may be entirely different so aren't really relevant he/she may not even be on the same scheme as you.

The 'Educational Section Workers payment' you are referring is the normal Jobseeker's Allowance or Benefit but applies to the people temporarily unemployed and not paid by their employers for Mid-terms, Christmas, Easter and summer holidays. Some substitute teachers, 'lollipop' ladies or men, cleaners, caretakers, canteen worker's and bus drivers would be the main recipients provided they can show they are not paid while temporarily unemployed for school holidays. Usually Social Welfare offices would have a database of regular 'ESW ' that would qualify for social welfare and issue out application forms so they can be processed and paid quickly as there would be an influx of a big number of claims together and most would only be claiming for a short period. There is no special payment for Educational Sector Workers as such but they would be processed slightly differently than people permanently ceasing employment.

The deciding officer should have made you aware of the correct payment to apply for but all the information they have is also available to you in terms of correct entitlements.

If you worked an hour in a day you were not entitled to be paid for that day as you are not available and seeking full time work for that day. So then you weren't entitled to the full payment for the week which you said you picked up. You may have been entitled to some of the payment depending on means/number of days worked. If you had informed social welfare and they saw you were getting regular hours from the school you should have been put on a casual claim if you were eligible for one.

Leham

square ball wrote: »

Hi Leham were you claiming Jobseeker's Allowance or Benefit?

The circumstances of the friend/colleague you mentioned may be entirely different so aren't really relevant he/she may not even be on the same scheme as you.

The 'Educational Section Workers payment' you are referring is the normal Jobseeker's Allowance or Benefit but applies to the people temporarily unemployed and not paid by their employers for Mid-terms, Christmas, Easter and summer holidays. Some substitute teachers, 'lollipop' ladies or men, cleaners, caretakers, canteen worker's and bus drivers would be the main recipients provided they can show they are not paid while temporarily unemployed for school holidays. Usually Social Welfare offices would have a database of regular 'ESW ' that would qualify for social welfare and issue out application forms so they can be processed and paid quickly as there would be an influx of a big number of claims together and most would only be claiming for a short period. There is no special payment for Educational Sector Workers as such but they would be processed slightly differently than people permanently ceasing employment.

The deciding officer should have made you aware of the correct payment to apply for but all the information they have is also available to you in terms of correct entitlements.

If you worked an hour in a day you were not entitled to be paid for that day as you are not available and seeking full time work for that day. So then you weren't entitled to the full payment for the week which you said you picked up. You may have been entitled to some of the payment depending on means/number of days worked. If you had informed social welfare and they saw you were getting regular hours from the school you should have been put on a casual claim if you were eligible for one.

Hi thanks for replying. Yes im aware its jobseekers but its under the name Educational sectors workers' When I asked to go back on this payment I was told no, they didnt look into my claim or ask any questions, just straight out said no. I went away thinking this wasnt available anymore. The colleague I was speaking to was on the education workers payment I should have been on, as in she was getting social welfare for mid terms etc, I wasnt, thi was nothing to do with the suspended claim, I was told I couldnt get it because it wasnt available , his words were 'everythings tightened up' and I couldnt get it.

I was eventually placed on this payment back in Jan/Feb after calling social welfare and explaining my situation, they sent out forms for me to fill out and I handed them in. I knew I wouldnt get the payments until my suspension was lifted but should have been giving the forms in anyway, which I did when I finally got the issue sorted.

I asked for a casual claim in September when I was only working a handful of hours/days a week as I had been on this from Jan the year before in a previous school. I am aware that if I work for even 1 hour a day im not entitled to any pay, thats fine, I wasnt expecting anything but I didnt know from one day to the next if I will be working. The deciding officer decided I wasnt entitled to this and instead of putting me onto the right payment, he closed my claim completely and said I owe over 1000 euro.

If anything ive learned from this, I will never take a casual subbing job again. If it means staying on social welfare and turning down work I will have to do that as I cant go through all this again. The stress it has caused over the past year is not worth it.

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

Hi
There’s no special SW payment/scheme for teachers. If there was then there would have to be a special scheme for nurses etc and that would be unmanageable. They can’t make special arrangements either for teachers because the system has to be fair for everyone.
If you have an overpayment then you can’t continue getting payments until it’s been agreed about how you are going to pay the money back. That’s why your payment is suspended.
Do you know how much SW you got in total for the months in question?

Hi, yes im aware theres no special payment for teachers, its a payment for school staff that dont have work during school closure and dont get paid during these times like secretaries, bus escorts, sub sna's, sub teachers that dont get holiday pay. I had been on it previously, when I said that to the guy behind the desk he told me it wasnt available anymore because my wages were too high? Even though I was part time/causal and on the unqualified rate, for most of the year I was earning about 300 a week. It was only when I was in work I dicovered from a full time, contracted teacher who is on a higher pay than me, that she was getting social welfare during mid term breaks etc.
It was like they ust decide themselves who they give it to and who they dont give it too. Like theyre on a bit of a power trip or something.

I dont know how much I got, I didnt keep track, I thought the money thats not taken out just gets sent back and they can see it wasnt touched so I didnt think of making a note of money I didnt take out.

1015 would suggest I took money out consistently for 5 weeks. I know I didnt take money out every week, I made a point of not doing so. Also, this doesnt make any sense as the pay was suspended for 2 weeks during the 5 weeks I worked from Septmeber - October when I tried to change my claim to casual.

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

Hi thanks for replying. Yes im aware its jobseekers but its under the name Educational sectors workers' When I asked to go back on this payment I was told no, they didnt look into my claim or ask any questions, just straight out said no. I went away thinking this wasnt available anymore. The colleague I was speaking to was on the education workers payment I should have been on, as in she was getting social welfare for mid terms etc, I wasnt, thi was nothing to do with the suspended claim, I was told I couldnt get it because it wasnt available , his words were 'everythings tightened up' and I couldnt get it.

I was eventually placed on this payment back in Jan/Feb after calling social welfare and explaining my situation, they sent out forms for me to fill out and I handed them in. I knew I wouldnt get the payments until my suspension was lifted but should have been giving the forms in anyway, which I did when I finally got the issue sorted.

I asked for a casual claim in September when I was only working a handful of hours/days a week as I had been on this from Jan the year before in a previous school. I am aware that if I work for even 1 hour a day im not entitled to any pay, thats fine, I wasnt expecting anything but I didnt know from one day to the next if I will be working. The deciding officer decided I wasnt entitled to this and instead of putting me onto the right payment, he closed my claim completely and said I owe over 1000 euro.

If anything ive learned from this, I will never take a casual subbing job again. If it means staying on social welfare and turning down work I will have to do that as I cant go through all this again. The stress it has caused over the past year is not worth it.

You can’t turn down work if you are on a Jobseekers payment as that would disqualify you. Lots and lots of teachers and workers in general work intermittently and get jobseekers payment to supplement their wages while looking for full time work with no issues. It might be time for you to accept that you were mistaken in thinking that you were entitled to as much payment as you thought you were and that you didn’t and still don’t have a clear idea of your obligations when on jobseekers.
If you claim full jobseekers you will be referred quite quickly to JobPath who will very quickly tell you that you have to accept any teaching work you are offered or sign off from jobseekers totally.

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

You can’t turn down work if you are on a Jobseekers payment as that would disqualify you. Lots and lots of teachers and workers in general work intermittently and get jobseekers payment to supplement their wages while looking for full time work with no issues. It might be time for you to accept that you were mistaken in thinking that you were entitled to as much payment as you thought you were and that you didn’t and still don’t have a clear idea of your obligations when on jobseekers.
If you claim full jobseekers you will be referred quite quickly to JobPath who will very quickly tell you that you have to accept any teaching work you are offered or sign off from jobseekers totally.

I want to accept the work but can you not see how social welfare have made this very difficult? Why is it that last year I was able to claim casual dockets while on more money and more hours but this year I wasnt? Im not looking for anything im not entitled to. I dont want full social welfare when im working, thats not what im looking for.

You said social welfare supplement wages, I know this, this is what I tried to claim but was told no. I have my calander from Septmeber, some weeks that I worked within those 5 weeks, I worked no more that 1 or 2 hours a week. Its not like I was working everyday or even 4 days a week some weeks. That was clearly stated on the form I filled out which was signed and stamped by the school.

square ball

Were you claiming Jobseeker's Benefit or Allowance prior to September?

How many days did you work over the total period you didn't receive a social welfare payment for? You may have earned more over the period than would allow you to still qualify for the means tested payment.

Why would you turn down work? If work was/is available and you turn it down you shouldn't/wouldn't be entitled to a Jobseeker's payment.

Would it be possible to get a part time job on evenings or weekends 'outside of school hours' until you were able to get permanent employment as a teacher?

Leham

square ball wrote: »

Were you claiming Jobseeker's Benefit or Allowance prior to September?

How many days did you work over the total period you didn't receive a social welfare payment for? You may have earned more over the period than would allow you to still qualify for the means tested payment.

Why would you turn down work? If work was/is available and you turn it down you shouldn't/wouldn't be entitled to a Jobseeker's payment.

Would it be possible to get a part time job on evenings or weekends 'outside of school hours' until you were able to get permanent employment as a teacher?

Yes I know and I dont want to turn down work, the few hours I recieved in September turned into full time hours later in the year and a contract in the end, its by no mean work that I want to turn down. Regardless of working in evenings/taking second jobs, the issue im having is with the misinformation I recieved back in September and that im being asked to pay back social welfare that I didnt take out.

They avereaged my weekly wages out over the 5 weeks and said I ws earning 230 a week. Over the 5 weeks I earned about 1,150, thats including the one full first week were my pay was suspended, after this I was given various casual subbing work.
As Splinter said, with 230 a week average - according to the deciding officer, I should have been entitled to roughly 100 a week top up - I wasnt given any top up, my pay was stopped completly.

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

Hi, yes im aware theres no special payment for teachers, its a payment for school staff that dont have work during school closure and dont get paid during these times like secretaries, bus escorts, sub sna's, sub teachers that dont get holiday pay. I had been on it previously, when I said that to the guy behind the desk he told me it wasnt available anymore because my wages were too high? Even though I was part time/causal and on the unqualified rate, for most of the year I was earning about 300 a week. It was only when I was in work I dicovered from a full time, contracted teacher who is on a higher pay than me, that she was getting social welfare during mid term breaks etc.
It was like they ust decide themselves who they give it to and who they dont give it too. Like theyre on a bit of a power trip or something.

I dont know how much I got, I didnt keep track, I thought the money thats not taken out just gets sent back and they can see it wasnt touched so I didnt think of making a note of money I didnt take out.

1015 would suggest I took money out consistently for 5 weeks. I know I didnt take money out every week, I made a point of not doing so. Also, this doesnt make any sense as the pay was suspended for 2 weeks during the 5 weeks I worked from Septmeber - October when I tried to change my claim to casual.

“It was like they ust decide themselves who they give it to and who they dont give it too. Like theyre on a bit of a power trip or something.“

Very frustrating to see this here as it demonstrates that you have a very immature unrealistic attitude to your entitlements and your not really open to any other approach.
Last bit of advice. Write (don’t ring or call) to the DO dealing with your case and ask him/her to send you a breakdown of how your overpayment occurred and to advise you about how you should best move on now with your SW claim from this point.
If you want to read this in your spare time it’s the nitty gritty of jobseekers rules and regs .
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1a5134-operational-guidelines-jobseekers-allowance/

I see in other posts you are alleging that you are being asked to pay back payments that you didn’t get.
You do realise they can show very easily that the money either went in your bank account or that you signed for it in the PO?

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

“It was like they ust decide themselves who they give it to and who they dont give it too. Like theyre on a bit of a power trip or something.“

Very frustrating to see this here as it demonstrates that you have a very immature unrealistic attitude to your entitlements and your not really open to any other approach.
Last bit of advice. Write (don’t ring or call) to the DO dealing with your case and ask him/her to send you a breakdown of how your overpayment occurred and to advise you about how you should best move on now with your SW claim from this point.
If you want to read this in your spare time it’s the nitty gritty of jobseekers rules and regs .
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1a5134-operational-guidelines-jobseekers-allowance/

Im sorry if it comes across that way but thats how it feels. Why is one teacher in the same intreo as me entitled to benefits on mid term breaks but im told im not, then someone else in the intreo tells me I am?

I am aware of the rules of Jobseekers, I was not trying to claim jobseekers, I was trying to claim casual workers as I had been on the previous year.

I have already asked for a break down several times, they didnt give me one.

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

I see in other posts you are alleging that you are being asked to pay back payments that you didn’t get.
You do realise they can show very easily that the money either went in your bank account or that you signed for it in the PO?

Can I obtain copies of these?

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

Im sorry if it comes across that way but thats how it feels. Why is one teacher in the same intreo as me entitled to benefits on mid term breaks but im told im not, then someone else in the intreo tells me I am?

I am aware of the rules of Jobseekers, I was not trying to claim jobseekers, I was trying to claim casual workers as I had been on the previous year.

I have already asked for a break down several times, they didnt give me one.

Oh lord. Casual workers is just a version of jobseekers. This is exhausting. You don’t want any advice you just want someone to tell you that you are right and SW are wrong. Right now you’ve no SW income and that’s just the way it’s going to stay until you either get a full time job or stop talking and start listening to what your being told.

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

Can I obtain copies of these?

Yes certainly they’ll be more then happy to let you see copies of all the receipts you signed in the PO.

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

Oh lord. Casual workers is just a version of jobseekers. This is exhausting. You don’t want any advice you just want someone to tell you that you are right and SW are wrong. Right now you’ve no SW income and that’s just the way it’s going to stay until you either get a full time job or stop talking and start listening to what your being told.

So are you saying that I wasnt entitled to claim anything? I wasnt entitled to casual workers in September/October and I wasnt entitled to job seekers during mid terms like all other school staff not getting wages during school closure?

Sinus pain

When you say take out money- is that at the post office or are you paid into your bank account?

Leham

Sinus pain wrote: »

When you say take out money- is that at the post office or are you paid into your bank account?

The post office

maneno

On initial application, what did you apply for? What does the letter approving your dole say? You seem not to be answering these questions

Leham

maneno wrote: »

On initial application, what did you apply for? What does the letter approving your dole say? You seem not to be answering these questions

Apologies, I didnt see those questions.

I applied for casual workers. My dole wasnt approved, I havnt been recieving any payments.

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

So are you saying that I wasnt entitled to claim anything? I wasnt entitled to casual workers in September/October and I wasnt entitled to job seekers during mid terms like all other school staff not getting wages during school closure?

I’m saying you have a very poor grasp of the concept of applying for a SW payment when you’re not in full time work.
You have preconceived ideas but how these things are processed which couldn’t be any further from the actuality of things.
You clearly aren’t open to being told by SW that you are wrong and you need to listen.
So right now you’re without a payment and that’s the way it will be until you stop arguing with them and telling them how to do their job and start listening and co operating.

square ball

Leham wrote: »

I want to accept the work but can you not see how social welfare have made this very difficult? Why is it that last year I was able to claim casual dockets while on more money and more hours but this year I wasnt? Im not looking for anything im not entitled to. I dont want full social welfare when im working, thats not what im looking for.

You said social welfare supplement wages, I know this, this is what I tried to claim but was told no. I have my calander from Septmeber, some weeks that I worked within those 5 weeks, I worked no more that 1 or 2 hours a week. Its not like I was working everyday or even 4 days a week some weeks. That was clearly stated on the form I filled out which was signed and stamped by the school.

Did you exhaust your benefits from last year and need to go on Jobseeker's Allowance?

Everyone's circumstances are different your colleague may have been claiming her stamps, being on a casual claim or be on a one parent family payment or claiming working family payment.

You said you picked up full social welfare payments for weeks you worked at least one day? Why did you pick them up if you knew you were not entitled to them then.

I find it hard to see how both the deciding officer and appeals officer made a decision against you if you were in fact entitled to a payment as you have stated if they had all the relevant facts. Especially if the DO had made an error on your first decision they would review it rather than go through the appeals process for nothing.

dartboardio

SW haven't lied about you..

They averaged your wage over a YTD figure and just because you aren't entitled to it now, but you were before, is irrelevant

Most government bodies do this.. So its not much of a surprise

Maybe if you were to actually research and know your own entitlements by looking into these things properly beforehand and asking questions at these meetings with the DO, then you wouldn't be so confused

Leham

Ive already been informed by a different person in the intreo that I am entitled to the school workers pay. The first guy told me I wasnt without even looking into anything, I asked and he said no, its not available anymore.

They did lie as they said I didnt hand in payslips, I did. They also said they made unnsuccessful attempts to contact me - they didnt. I never once ignored them and was trying to find out for months what pay I should be on.

I did ask quetions, repeatedly, but each time they would give me contradicting information depending on who I was speaking to. Eg of that is the first guy telling me the school workers isnt available anymore, then to be told by someone else it is available and sent me forms. Is it not their job to know wheter this payment is available or not? All school staff that dont get paid for holidays/mid term breaks are entitled to it, unless they have other income.

As mentioned I took the money out because I wasnt getting much from the job, the weeks I worked an hour I could literally get 25 euro for the week in wages. Thankfully my hours increased as the year went on but starting out in September for the first month, this is the way it was.

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m saying you have a very poor grasp of the concept of applying for a SW payment when you’re not in full time work.
You have preconceived ideas but how these things are processed which couldn’t be any further from the actuality of things.
You clearly aren’t open to being told by SW that you are wrong and you need to listen.
So right now you’re without a payment and that’s the way it will be until you stop arguing with them and telling them how to do their job and start listening and co operating.

I just want to make a point, earlier you said if I was earning 230 a week, social welfare would top up those wages by 100 euro. As I said I got nothing, despite earning nothing some weeks to as little as 25 euro other weeks. Yet at the same time your telling me I dont know what im talking about and have a poor grasp of social welfare.
Seems a bit contradictory.

Im not arguing with them just trying to get to the bottom of this as its been hanging over me since September. I dont have to co operate if I know that something isnt right. What is the point in being honest with them when they can turn around and say that I lied by not givin payslips and not engaging with them?

splinter65

Leham wrote: »

I just want to make a point, earlier you said if I was earning 230 a week, social welfare would top up those wages by 100 euro. As I said I got nothing, despite earning nothing some weeks to as little as 25 euro other weeks. Yet at the same time your telling me I dont know what im talking about and have a poor grasp of social welfare.
Seems a bit contradictory.

Im not arguing with them just trying to get to the bottom of this as its been hanging over me since September. I dont have to co operate if I know that something isnt right. What is the point in being honest with them when they can turn around and say that I lied by not givin payslips and not engaging with them?

You’re absolutely correct here. You don’t have to co operate with your Intreo Centre at all. You can walk right out the door and go home and provide for yourself.
Edited to add: in order to qualify for the €100 then you were only allowed to work 3 days out of 7 that week. If you worked any more then 3 then you were entitled to nothing.
But you knew that already because you said you understand the scheme perfectly.

BohsCeltic

Leham wrote: »

I just want to make a point, earlier you said if I was earning 230 a week, social welfare would top up those wages by 100 euro. As I said I got nothing, despite earning nothing some weeks to as little as 25 euro other weeks. Yet at the same time your telling me I dont know what im talking about and have a poor grasp of social welfare.
Seems a bit contradictory.

Im not arguing with them just trying to get to the bottom of this as its been hanging over me since September. I dont have to co operate if I know that something isnt right. What is the point in being honest with them when they can turn around and say that I lied by not givin payslips and not engaging with them?

I understand your pain and frustration. Just like me being honest and very little help offered. It seems if you make a song and dance about it, they will fix it quicker.
That's from my experience anyway.

Before i was made redundant from my old job in 2010 i was on a 3 day week. I had to apply for the extra 2 days from welfare. The woman behind the counter was so rude, basically told me i should be happy i was getting something. Sure isn't that what PRSI is for. You would have thought it was coming out of her own pocket.

Then i got a letter to ask me why i wasn't looking for work despite being employed, this was when the recession had kicked in.
The mind boggles.

Leham

splinter65 wrote: »

You’re absolutely correct here. You don’t have to co operate with your Intreo Centre at all. You can walk right out the door and go home and provide for yourself.
Edited to add: in order to qualify for the €100 then you were only allowed to work 3 days out of 7 that week. If you worked any more then 3 then you were entitled to nothing.
But you knew that already because you said you understand the scheme perfectly.

I didnt say I understood the scheme perfectly at all, I went to them to find out about it but instead of helping me they took an attitude and gave me wrong information and generally just wouldnt listen to me.

splinter65 wrote: »

You can walk right out the door and go home and provide for yourself.

This is really what it all comes down to, the general contempt and unhelpful attitude by most staff working in the intreo, they look down on anyone looking to sign on wheter we're working or not.
I do provide for myself, I have a job, im a teacher, I educate your kids. When your childs teacher is sick or on leave I come in to make sure your child doesnt miss out on any part of their education. Like all teachers starting out we dont walk into full time permanent jobs, we sub day to day, building experience and earning very little money until we eventually get a contract. That is why social welfare services are in place for school workers that dont get paid for holidays and subs who work minimal hours. Imagine if we all quit to get full time jobs in other areas, the education system would literally fall apart. Schools are full of subs. Rediculous, contemptious comment. If you dont like your job, and want to make life hard for others, do something else.

Leham

BohsCeltic wrote: »

I understand your pain and frustration. Just like me being honest and very little help offered. It seems if you make a song and dance about it, they will fix it quicker.
That's from my experience anyway.

Before i was made redundant from my old job in 2010 i was on a 3 day week. I had to apply for the extra 2 days from welfare. The woman behind the counter was so rude, basically told me i should be happy i was getting something. Sure isn't that what PRSI is for. You would have thought it was coming out of her own pocket.

Then i got a letter to ask me why i wasn't looking for work despite being employed, this was when the recession had kicked in.
The mind boggles.

This is exactly it, you would swear the money is coming out of their own pocket. They question you like your lying to them and treat you like the scum of the earth. I dont think anyone actually likes having to collect social welfare, we all want to earn our own money. They really have a way of kicking you when youre down and the worse part is, they have the power to stop and start your pay as they please and give misinformation to send you running round in circles. Where do intreo centers find these people? Are they trained to treat people like dirt or are they selected because theyre miserable bullies?

BohsCeltic

Leham wrote: »

This is exactly it, you would swear the money is coming out of their own pocket. They question you like your lying to them and treat you like the scum of the earth. I dont think anyone actually likes having to collect social welfare, we all want to earn our own money. They really have a way of kicking you when youre down and the worse part is, they have the power to stop and start your pay as they please and give misinformation to send you running round in circles. Where do intreo centers find these people? Are they trained to treat people like dirt or are they selected because theyre miserable bullies?

I have found some of them nice and helpfull but you get many on a power trip. I have seen many people walk out crying.
There is no way i could ever do a job like that, your playing cards with peoples lives and it's sad to see some people get a buzz out of doing that.

If it wasn't for my family and friends i probably would have been homeless now. I dread to think about what people go through who have no one to turn to. It's depressing even thinking about it.

I hope you get everything sorted soon. I am supposed to get a call from them tomorrow. Hopefully good news so i can get back on my feet and repay everyone i had to borrow from to keep myself afloat.

Just have to have hope and never give up.

Leham

BohsCeltic wrote: »

I have found some of them nice and helpfull but you get many on a power trip. I have seen many people walk out crying.
There is no way i could ever do a job like that, your playing cards with peoples lives and it's sad to see some people get a buzz out of doing that.

If it wasn't for my family and friends i probably would have been homeless now. I dread to think about what people go through who have no one to turn to. It's depressing even thinking about it.

I hope you get everything sorted soon. I am supposed to get a call from them tomorrow. Hopefully good news so i can get back on my feet and repay everyone i had to borrow from to keep myself afloat.

Just have to have hope and never give up.

There are some lovely people in social welfare but theyre often few and far between unfortunatly. It's crazy how they genuinly get a buzz out of it. I remember going in one time looking for a docket last year after id misplaced one and needed a new sheet, the guy behind the desk (the same guy who told me this time that school workers payments where no more) - refused to give me a new docket, thought he was the big man telling me no.

Thanks and fingers crossed for you that everything goes well.

square ball

Leham wrote: »

As mentioned I took the money out because I wasnt getting much from the job, the weeks I worked an hour I could literally get 25 euro for the week in wages. Thankfully my hours increased as the year went on but starting out in September for the first month, this is the way it was.

That's not how the system works. Obviously there was going to be an overpayment if you were working and signing. They usually assess the full period from the date you started work if you kept picking up your payments while working.

Leham

square ball wrote: »

That's not how the system works. Obviously there was going to be an overpayment if you were working and signing. They usually assess the full period from the date you started work if you kept picking up your payments while working.

Yes I know theres an over payment, as mentioned I expected there to be and will pay it back no problem.

The issues im having are :

1. They gave false information to the appeals section, they told them I did not provide pay slips - I did. They told them they tried to contact me unsuccesfully this is a lie, they never tried to contact me, I was contacting them myself repeatedly during this time trying to get appropriate information.

2. I was repeatedly given misinformation regarding social welfare payments for months.

3. The over payment is more than what I recieved in welfare payments.

ToddDameron

Leham wrote: »

Yes I know theres an over payment, as mentioned I expected there to be and will pay it back no problem.

The issues im having are :

1. They gave false information to the appeals section, they told them I did not provide pay slips - I did. They told them they tried to contact me unsuccesfully this is a lie, they never tried to contact me, I was contacting them myself repeatedly during this time trying to get appropriate information.

2. I was repeatedly given misinformation regarding social welfare payments for months.

3. The over payment is more than what I recieved in welfare payments.

They are incompetent at the best of times, let alone now when all this is going on. Depending on who is on the phone, and how arsed they are doing their job, you'll get a different answer.