Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

lordleitrim

You also have to remember air travel was extortionately expensive pre 1990 too with flights to London from Dublin known to cost a month's wages. Transatlantic flights would have been even more prohibitive. Only the very wealthy flew regularly and the diaspora only probably flew home from US once every few years if they could afford it. Foreign holidays for Irish were less common and would mostly have consisted of Spain or France for the more affluent. Breaks to Florida, New York, California etc were almost unheard of for the average household. Most of the cities mentioned above would not have been viable even if the Shannon stopover hadn't existed. Ireland was a poor country of 3.5 million pre 1990 and did not have the extensive US trade and commerce links either back then so Seattle etc were almost unheard of cities then. Its apple and oranges trying to compare air travel and demand back then to today.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122768610#Comment_122768610

Aer Lingus's routes to the USA were generally the shortest of transatlantic flights operated by the 747. The additional capability of the 747-200 variant would not really have been needed. If you can track down a copy of this highly-detailed Irish Air Letter monograph on Aer Lingus's Boeing operations, it will provide more information on the subject than is available from any other source.

HTCOne

The US carriers were prohibited from operating DUB without stopping in SNN. This was a major deterrent for them. They actively lobbied for years for the stopover to be abolished.

This was before de-regulation. In order for a US carrier to operate from XXX to Ireland, a reciprocal flight needed to be permitted by EI, who weren't interested. Everything was at the discretion of the Governments. Ours knew how weak EI were at the time and wanted to protect the stopover at all costs.

Astral Nav

Thr last few posters answered the previous question about routes very well but there was a lot of other factors too.

They 747s were beautiful, loved by passengers and crew but probably just too big for EI, often one was on charter to another airline in quite exotic locations. Kenya, Chile and Jamaica spring to mind.

The 767s were the ideal aircraft for the time but stymied by the SNN stopover as mentioned but also by being on a very expensive lease (how that came about was the subject of speculation!).

Bear in mind EI were one of the bigger operators on the N A for a stretch during the sixties, they served Montreal well into the 70s with 707s despite arriving late after the '48 Constellations were force sold to BOAC.

A combination of oil prices, Government decisions and choice of aircraft left them with a tenuous hold on the Atlantic, at one point down to five day a week service to JFK post Gulf War 1. At one point several journalists seemed to rejoice in calling for the Atlantic routes to be scrapped and I think I remember one saying that EI should only operate a feeder service to BA in LHR and no more. Strangely I think he went on to better things at least for a while…

The A330 was a great decision, apparently at a good price, vastly more fuel efficient, plenty of power and cargo capacity. The 321LR is less capable but nicely fills the smaller markets.

EI was a decent TA player and could have been bigger but also could have been a lot smaller. Hopefully badly thought out passenger caps don't stop it reaching it's potential.

Tenger

Keep in mind that the EI strategy over the last 10 years has been to use Dublin as a hub for USA-Europe-USA traffic.
This wasnt a consideration back in the 1980s.
Weekends in NYC werent a thing back then either.

wazzzledazzle

Still don't understand why EI haven't acquired any 350's(is it a financial decision?), them 321's are glorified 320's. Surely with TA travel increasing it's time they set their sights higher

john boye

The A330 is pretty much the perfect fit for EI. What benefit would the A350 bring really? Some extra capacity that they'd struggle to fill outside summer and a lot of extra range that they don't need. A330 ticks all the boxes in my view.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122771242#Comment_122771242

350 to SFO/LAX(Even JFK) increased seat numbers in J, more capacity in the back. It is a profitable route.

Use a 330(or even 321) as a regular to ACE, like what they have daily to FAO/AGP.

john boye

Is the extra capacity (and extra range you don't need) really worth the extra outlay? Especially when they can struggle to fill the A330 outside summer as it is?

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122771381#Comment_122771381

I don't know what the load factors are for their US west coast flights are, (i'm assuming 90%+ year round). Anyway, it's an investment, can they not have bigger ambitions than what they currently have?

Why not get in to the ME market? Offer competitive pricing against against their flag carriers.

MICKEYG

ME3 have the connections, EI don't.

My gripe with EI is not with the planes on TA but the lack of European connections. They seem to have either given up competing with Ryanair or are trying to be too like them

john boye

And it sounds like the EU network is only likely to get worse, not better.

All this A330/A350 talk is probably academic anyway as it doesn't sound like there'll be any investment in the wide body fleet any time soon.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122771422#Comment_122771422

Agreed, Iberia and their South American network would be prioritised anyway if the talk came up about further widebody investment within the group.

ohigg84

I appreciate everyone's feedback regarding my question regarding Aer Lingus of the 1970s/80s and 90s.

I do know that the 767s were very short lived and a huge financial burden on the airline, and the Gulf War which just started in 1990 triggered a world wide recession and the airline industry was severely impacted which culminated in the downfall and demise of Eastern and Pan Am, especially more so with Pan Am, which went bankrupt at the end of 1991.

I do know about the 767s as my father worked at EI, and he told me of how the LAX service was scrapped.

The 767s were therefore consigned to routes to Boston, New York and occasionally London Heathrow, but they were leased out to Air Aruba and TWA, SAS.

In fact, in 1990 I remember my family and I were on vacation in Seattle, and my dad knew some pilots from EI who were undergoing training on the 767.

When the first 767 arrived in 1991, my dad and some EI staff were allowed to walk around the newly delivered aircraft.

It's such a shame that the 767s didn't work out, and I really did hope that EI would have considered the 777, but that may have been a possibility, had the 767s worked out, a point which was made by one of your members on here.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122772219#Comment_122772219

Yeah it’s certainly interesting, and more likely they’d have stayed more loyal to Boeing, would also have possibly meant the short haul 737 would have been replaced with -800s instead of transitioning to 320s and overall the fleet today would have been very different.

Captain_Crash

Wasn’t it also a case of EI getting the 330’s at Airbus a ridiculous price and the transition began for the short haul fleet once they saw how good Airbus were?

ohigg84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122769703#Comment_122769703

Thanks for the insight, this looks like a very interesting read!

Tippman24

I saw something on youtube a while ago about EI and Airbus. Airbus had buit the A330 but had trouble getting Aurlines to accept as it was only with two engines. All planes on Atlantic run had 3/4 engines at rhe time and Airlines were afraid of using two engined planes over Oceans. Bernie Cahill was Chair of EI at the time and he did a deal with Airbus where planes, A330s, were provided very cheaply. I think first arrived early nineties as a few from my place went to World Cup in USA in 1994 on them.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122772652#Comment_122772652

There were plenty of 767 TATL services by then.

The 330, like the 300 it was developed from, was seen as a regional heavy hauler not a longhair frame. The 340 was the LH model. Airbus realised it made sense to have the 330 do both.

cson

I recall part of the A330 deal was that EI would do the ETOPS proving for Airbus hence the generous deal.

shamrocka330

Didn’t EI also get a couple of A330s from Air Inter for a low price as they didn’t need them anymore as they lost exclusivity on domestic flights within France and were then merged with Air France? I think 1 A330 flew with Air Inter and was then sold to EI and the second one was a cancelled delivery with Airbus who then sold it to EI - I think Airbus were eager to get this completed aircraft sold plus EI were also doing ETOPs flights at the time with other A330s so everything worked out for both parties.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122772219#Comment_122772219

The lease-outs of the 767s when with EI were (i) EI-CAL to Aeromexico as XA-RWW (06/91-10/92) and then to Air Aruba (probably operated by EI flight-crew) from 30/11/92-07/06/93. This was followed by the sub-lease to TWA from 03/94 to 04/96, following which the aircraft was returned to GPA, and that was the end of Aer Lingus's interest in EI-CAL; (ii) EI-CAM was immediately leased to Aeromexico from new as XA-RWX, without entering Aer Lingus service. This lasted from 12/91 to 02/93. After a period in EI hands, EI-CAM was also sub-leased to TWA from 02/94 to 10/96 and at the end of that period it too reverted to GPA.

sherology

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122773011#Comment_122773011

Yes to all three comment above. 747 too big and old and EI were nearly going under; Bargain prices for 330s in turn for EI flying the initial 330s closer to land for the first year to get the 330 ETOPs (maybe. From 120 to 180???) certified, and they took the Air Inter frames.

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122767764#Comment_122767764

Ahhhh another fluffy 'lets scare the employees' article written by managements mate!!!

sherology

Perhaps perhaps, perrrhaps:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airbus-deliver-first-a321xlr-tuesday-sources-say-2024-10-29/

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122776066#Comment_122776066

Flight IBE52, A21N registration EC-OIL, ETD from Finkenwerder to MAD 1600 on 30/10. (Source FR24)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122776253#Comment_122776253

Do you know when EI XLR will be delivered. Surely cant be two far behind EC OIL

basill

..

sherology

Delivered, with 14 Vantage Solo biz seats... Very nice (although one spilt Bloody Mary and there goes the covers 😜)

https://simpleflying.com/iberia-has-taken-delivery-of-the-1st-airbus-a321xlr/

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122779192#Comment_122779192

That Livery is such a bore, why can't airlines be more ambitious like Condor, or although straight forward for the choice ITA, that livery is beautiful