Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

Qaanaaq

Is the EI operation in Manchester also linked to this agreement or a completely separate entity from a payscale point of view?

kevinandrew

Talking about 3% a year from the previous pays deal is as misleading as some of the stuff management have been saying to be honest. It’s an irrelevant figure as that’s not what is being asked of the company today.

As it stands, pilots want 27% over three years. That’s a steep ask, no matter how you cut it or how many call backs to previous agreements from decades ago are made.

Management have handled this terribly but there’s a nasty reality check coming for all involved soon if no agreement is reached.

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031398#Comment_122031398

I’m not sure, I assume it’s the same but even if it was different IAG wouldn’t view EI UK as a separate entity when it comes to large scale investment like aircraft.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031414#Comment_122031414

The reality is IAG are competitive successful and profitable. And they will want to remain as such.
Personally do I agree with their approach, not necessarily but that’s got no relevance on anything.

A desirable cost base will be sought for stable profit and security going forward.

If it can’t be negotiated it can always be achieved other ways.

Look for example at Iberia Express, a classic example of where an efficient short haul cost base couldn’t be achieved with Iberia unions, so a new subsidiary was put in place. Look at BA Euroflyer or whatever it’s called over in Gatwick.
Lufthansa and SAS have done the same.

Aer Lingus management were more than happy to set up a new “airline within an airline” for the Manchester base.

What is there to stop them from doing the same again, Que “Aer Lingus Europe” a brand new company who’ll operate all Euro and UK a320/320neo flights.
Brand new market rate terms and conditions.
From a customer perspective nothing would be different.
From a management perspective cost would be lower.

I hope IALPA keep their eyes open in whatever they negotiate and sincerely hope things are resolved soon

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031516#Comment_122031516

I’ve always thought the only way for short haul to grow again was in fact an IB Express style carrier. Either that or an expansion of the Regional franchise clauses to included jets either via the current operator, an additional one or a wholly owned subsidiary.

Considering how difficult Aer Lingus has found securing A320neo’s from IAG (still only two directly from an order made nearly a decade ago) they were never going to get anything substantial without drastic change

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024804#Comment_122024804

I've seen posts here about the Ex QR 330 cabin layout,I've never flown with any of the ME3 and always assumed the cabin layout on all three airlines would be top notch.

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031739#Comment_122031739

Qatar traditionally uses its A330 fleet on lower yielding routes, often to India, Bangladesh and some smaller Chinese cities. Some of the A330s date from a 2003 order so there’s little incentive to put their latest products on them.

All the A330s feature a very mid-2000s tech cabin with old entertainment screens, first gen Recaro seats and the general wear and tear you’d see after 15+ years of flying and little investment.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031830#Comment_122031830

Ah right so I've only ever flown on an old EI 330 to MCO back in the noughties and they had the drop down screens no individual IFE in the headrests. So that type EI are operating that are ex QR.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031866#Comment_122031866

No they had seat back screens just not as up to date as the rest of the fleet.
They also didn’t have WiFi.

Thankfully both these aircraft are currently out of service having their cabins upgraded

Chris_5339762

I've booked a multi-city trip, going Cork - Heathrow, and then Heathrow - Shannon.

Its laughable. The Aer Lingus app does not support multi city trips, you have to do it on the website. Its absolutely archaic.

x567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031589#Comment_122031589

Couldn’t agree more. The EI ex DUB offer to Europe still seems to be more about trying to compete with Ryanair - an un-winnable war - than providing a focused service as part of a wider well-connected network. Other than for the well-trodden holiday routes and prime business services to LHR and a handful of other European cities from Ireland, which will still warrant decent A320-type services, trying to be a big-guy in the IAG competition for prime air frames will have limited success; whereas going for feeder traffic (including to a niche EI North America network as well as to BA/IB) with better scaled aircraft may be more financially sustainable.

IngazZagni

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031516#Comment_122031516

They effectively already do. It's called Aer Lingus regional operated by Emerald Airlines who have poor working conditions and pay. Many moving to Ryanair believe it or not.

I think people need to understand that when the pilots demand a certain amount that it's part of a negotiating strategy. If you want 12% you ask for 20% initially and then settle in the middle. Going to the labour court means the management offer was poor. I'm sure the labour court recommendation will be fair.

Again Aer Lingus management only have themselves to blame. They should have started the pay process much sooner if they knew there was a risk to investment from their parent company.

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034043#Comment_122034043

or maybe their plan all along was to use the IAG threat to get a better deal. Who knows.

jwm121

Is there still a chance at all a deal could be made with pilots before the deadline? Or a chance that they still might get the XLR in the end? Or is the XLR for Aer Lingus pretty much a goner

Jamie2k9

BA Operated by Emerald have added LGW. Looks to be on sale until late Sep so presumably a temp measure until maybe BA Euro Flyer take over.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1781027984511582686

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035846#Comment_122035846

seems mad this wouldn’t at least be an EI codeshare!

sandbelter

No, there’s a very logical reason for EI withdrawing from LGW and it relates to the conditions of EU’s approval authorising IAG’s acquisition of EI set back in 2015.

In my opinion it’s fair to say whilst IAG acquired EI, Virgin in particular had a big input on the conditions of the acquisition espectally when it came to traffic feed. Article 570 of the EU’s approval set out the SPA conditions for feeder traffic and required EI to continue feeding Virgin’s LAS, CUN, MCO and BGI services from LGW (article 570 ii) and to LAS, MCO and BGI (look familiar?) from MAN under (570iii) under the following terms:

»The terms EI carried these passenger could not be any worse than the were at agreed the time of takeover or any worse than which it offered its Oneworld or IAG partners under Article 577, and,

»Whilst Article 582 effective set this obligation in place until Sept 2022 at a minimum.

In plain English this means that EI were stuck feeding passengers into Virgin’s MAN and LGW at rates it would offer potential Oneworld partners. This both benefited Virgins operations but it also hobbled EI’s entry to Oneworld as effectively limited anything it potentially offer exclusively to the alliance. The other two airports EI had EU commitments to were AMS and LHR.

So, Virgin’s decision to exit LGW facilitated EI withdrawing from LGW without any legal blowback. Furthermore, it wouldn’t be under any potential hooks to feed Virgin at LGW going forward if/when Virgin decide to return to LGW.

There are important exemptions, neither BA nor Aer Lingus Regional are obliged to feed Virgin under the same conditions EI, but an EI codeshare potentially could, hence EI are probably playing it safe by not codesharing and why BA and Aer Lingus regional are combining on the route.

Personally, I’d be very surprised to ever see EI back at LGW.

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/cases/decisions/m7541_20150714_20212_4564413_EN.pdf

sherology

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037030#Comment_122037030

I love's me some facts. Appreciated 😊

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037162#Comment_122037162

Emerald is not EI. Also, already discussed above in any case.

jwm121

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037030#Comment_122037030

Does this mean EI may start some of these routes direct from Dublin in the coming years?

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037030#Comment_122037030

That's really great knowledge there, thank you.

It is possible that we will see BA LGW operating the route in time if they have an aircraft and properly linking (in both directions) the various routes on offer. The ATR has to be a stop gap for the time being.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035846#Comment_122035846

I’m just having flashbacks to 1995 when BA Cityfkyer used to operate ATRs from Dub to LGW. Surprised that it’s a worthwhile use of a slot. Back then the competition was a Ryanair 732, regularly the Jaguar branded one.

zone 1

when does the morning EI A330 to malaga start

dublin12367

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040681#Comment_122040681

started back the end of March. 07:20 EI580

HTCOne

This whole XLR threat all came about after the DUB cap enforcement was announced by Fingal. It wouldn't surprise me if that's the main factor in IAG considering re-alocation and they're just trying to use that as a bargaining chip with the Pilots that they otherwise wouldn't have.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041079#Comment_122041079

I’d have thought they’d have taken the aircraft anyway and sent them to Manchester base publicising this move to show up the government for their lack of serious action causing routes and jobs to be pushed outside of Ireland.

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041102#Comment_122041102

Maybe, but my understanding is the Manchester operation is a totally separate AOC, totally separate pay scale and agreements etc so wouldn't be affected by the IALPA issue?

john boye

Is this as close as it'll get to EI livery?

https://flic.kr/p/2pLc4GM

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041113#Comment_122041113

Yea, seems to be reported elsewhere Iberia will be taking XLRs now …

kevinandrew

Iberia has 8 on order, deliveries between ‘24-26 so they’ve been planning for its introduction for quite some time and reports of its potential routes are to be expected now anyway. Still, it looks increasingly likely they could take a couple a bit earlier than planned…

Judging by that photo, nothing has changed externally for over two months, either that’s the normal process for a new aircraft or things have been purposely stalled. We know they’ve pushed painting back to the end of April, the latest possible date according to IAG. It’s possible this recent outing is it making its way to engine installation which would be followed by full painting.

Certainly feels like time might be running out for Aer Lingus XLRs now.