Bewleys set to close

cson

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

My friend and I went into Bewley’s less than a year ago to escape torrential rain and got two hot chocolates. They were tepid. Went to pay. €13. €13 for two hot chocolates. Checked the menu to make sure that it wasn’t a mistake and it wasn’t. Resolved then to never set foot in the place again. Absolutely shameless gouging. I know their rent was high but that’s not the way to win repeat custom. I think anything I’ve ever had there has been bog-standard. It’s a good location and nice building so maybe if they focused on decent food at reasonable prices rather than trying to fleece tourists, they would have survived.

Deleted User wrote: »

This is it in a nutshell. The place was a disgrace: not very clean, expensive, mediocre quality and crap/outdated service and setup. People getting all misty-eyed about the place when, in reality:

1. they wouldn't darken the doorstep and part with their own hard-earned and
2. the place deserved to go under

Are the prices high and the quality questionable because they've a huge rent to pay and need to charge accordingly but manage costs to pay it? It's easy to take shots at this but looks like the business isn't viable at even 13 EUR a breakfast with current rent.

Hard to tell, without a look at their balance sheet. However, expecting people to pay more for a worse product with sh1ttier service is a completely unsustainable business model, and they deserve to go out of business if that is their only option. Simple as.

Darc19

cson wrote: »

Are the prices high and the quality questionable because they've a huge rent to pay and need to charge accordingly but manage costs to pay it? It's easy to take shots at this but looks like the business isn't viable at even 13 EUR a breakfast with current rent.

It wasn't viable even at zero rent.

Basically it wasn't a viable business.

At the end of the day it was a catering company trying to run a specialist café and they failed miserably

Great intentions and great ideas, but dreadful execution.

I've heard who is very interested in it and if it's true, they'll have no problem getting the use changed. (no its not a "fruit" company)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

cson wrote: »

Are the prices high and the quality questionable because they've a huge rent to pay and need to charge accordingly but manage costs to pay it? It's easy to take shots at this but looks like the business isn't viable at even 13 EUR a breakfast with current rent.

Is it not better to foster repeat custom? Like, I was shocked at that price (and crappy quality) and vowed never to return. They made €6.50 off me. Whereas, if I was went there even three or four times a year, I’d have spent a good deal more. We didn’t get food that time as we had just exited another restaurant and were just escaping from heavy rain but it’s a good location and if the food and prices were right, I’d have visited more often and bought more on each visit then just a hot chocolate.

Muahahaha

cson wrote: »

Are the prices high and the quality questionable because they've a huge rent to pay and need to charge accordingly but manage costs to pay it? It's easy to take shots at this but looks like the business isn't viable at even 13 EUR a breakfast with current rent.

Just looking through their 1 star reviews on Trip Advisor and the theme of the complaints is both high prices and bad service. Good few people saying the waiters are too busy and stuff like getting their food but no their drinks. Theres probably not much they could have done about the high prices due to the rent but theres no excuse for bad service really, thats a reflection of bad management.

While the prices are high many people dont mind paying extra for nice surroundings. Though personally if Im going to pay almost five euro for a cup of coffee Id prefer go to the Shelbourne

expectationlost

very confused by this does are Bewleys Coffe Company and Bewleys Cafe 2 seperate companies with no common ownership, I thought Bewleys Coffee company sold Bewleys Cafe during the last recession?


article keeps referring to artist paddy campbell owning the cafe, but apparently there is campbell catering group that bought bewleys

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/bewley-s-makes-offer-to-landlord-in-bid-to-save-grafton-street-cafe-1.4313092

Irish coffee group Bewley’s has made an offer to the landlord of its famous Grafton Street cafe that could save it from closure.

In a letter sent to Ronan Group Real Estate, which is controlled by Irish property developer Johnny Ronan, Bewley’s has offered to pay its rent arrears on the property, along with interest and legal costs.

The decision to close the café permanently was revealed by The Irish Times in May by the operator of the business, Bewley’s Ltd, which is owned by artist Paddy Campbell. On July 1st, the cafe’s 110 staff were informed they were being made redundant.

is the Irish Coffee group Bewleys the same as Bewley's Ltd?

L1011

Campbell Catering bought Bewleys in the 1980s

The Campbell family sold Campbell Catering except Bewleys (in its entirity) to Aramark. They own Bewleys outright

The cafe company is a division of the overall company.


They sold the physical building on a sale and lease back but didn't sell the cafe business at any stage.

They used to have franchised cafes in shopping centres, airports etc but that's all long gone.

The original lease is up for renewal soon and with the number of empty units in that area rocketing, footfall down etc they will likely be able to get the rent massively cut and the upward-only clause will inherently be gone; which is probably why they're looking at going back in now.

Muahahaha

I wonder what happened that they couldnt afford the rent in May but now are offering to pay all the rent arrears and interest and legal costs. 110 people lost their jobs in the meantime.

Caquas

Muahahaha wrote: »

I wonder what happened that they couldnt afford the rent in May but now are offering to pay all the rent arrears and interest and legal costs. 110 people lost their jobs in the meantime.

So bizarre, it smells. Especially that legal correspondence is copied to the Irish Times, including a settlement offer in a High Court case. And amazingly, the settlement is a total surrender.

Restaurants in Dublin are simply not viable at current rents and won't for the foreseeable future. Every commercial landlord in Dublin must have popped the champagne reading the Irish Times report but it doesn't add up. At least it means Johnnie Ronan doesn't have to write down the value of his investment, just yet.

Let's see how this plays out.

Rubberchikken

I never saw the attraction.
Went in once years ago with the kids when we were on a day out. Not impressed.

Tried it once more a couple of years back and walked out. Messy, overpriced and the staff/atmosphere left a lot to be desired.

As with clearys, people don't frequent it but then get misty eyed and sentimental about it.

It was a shop, bewleys was a cafe - who the heck cares.

3d4life

Rubberchikken wrote: »

......

It was a shop, bewleys was a cafe - who the heck cares.

I wouldnt have ( even had the opportunity ) to be a customer in the last several decades but I can tell you that in the 50s, 60s and 70s there was nowhere else in Dublin that could come close to it. The pure drama of coffee being roasted in the front window. The wonderful confectionary. Is there anywhere else - then or now - that sold goosberry tarts or Gugelhupf cakes ? Tea ? if you wanted anything other than Lyons or Barrys it was from Bewleys.

Maybe they were trading off their reputation ... but what a reputation it was !

Dempo1

This saga is not new and there's a long history of play acting by the Campbells who own the lease (of Campbell catering fame). I've lost count of how many spats they've had with their landlord and they seem to have forgotten they sold the building and lease it now. The parent company has a substantial cash pile, up to €70 million and this is not the first time there has been rent issues and disputes.

This time they've met their match and have come back grovelling, offer outstanding Rent, over €700k, interest and costs, and only because of a petition by the landlord to wind up the parent company. The Campbells have run out of excuses and any attempt to blame the Covid-19 19 lockdown is outrageous. They were very quick to make all their staff redundant and this seems lost in the media coverage.

Sad to say I hope they get their Justs desserts (excuse the pun), the landlord (another charming beaut) has the upper hand here and I believe he'll go all the way and rid himself of this troublesome tenant once and for all.

Rubberchikken

Rubberchikken wrote: »

I never saw the attraction.
Went in once years ago with the kids when we were on a day out. Not impressed.

Tried it once more a couple of years back and walked out. Messy, overpriced and the staff/atmosphere left a lot to be desired.

As with clearys, people don't frequent it but then get misty eyed and sentimental about it.

It was a shop, bewleys was a cafe - who the heck cares.

Ah it really was great once. It was one of the busiest cafes in the area, pre renovation. Even recently, you'd never have seen it empty. Nothing like Clery's.

The place did go downhill after the renovation, though. It looked more impressive, but lost atmosphere. The clientele changed a little bit, probably attracting customers from the likes of The Westbury (as opposed to students, which were a fairly sizable number of the clientele pre-renovation). It's generally a good idea to attract higher-spending customers, but I suspect Bewleys overestimated the revenue it would generate.

I think Bewleys/ Campbells' mistake was that it wasn't broken, they needn't have fixed it. Obviously that's just a blind statement, with no real knowledge of what games they're playing, if any.

Caquas

Once upon a time, up until the 1990s, it was one of the few places you could get decent coffee in Dublin. With steamed milk, not frothy like a cappucinno. And there was an atmosphere - people meeting, relaxing, talking.

But everything has to change if the rent is 30 K. a month. No more students nursing cheap coffees as they debate the great issues for hours. No more genteel ladies sharing a sticky bun.

A thousand euro every day before you even open the doors.

Muahahaha

Dempo1 wrote: »

This saga is not new and there's a long history of play acting by the Campbells who own the lease (of Campbell catering fame). I've lost count of how many spats they've had with their landlord and they seem to have forgotten they sold the building and lease it now. The parent company has a substantial cash pile, up to €70 million and this is not the first time there has been rent issues and disputes.

This time they've met their match and have come back grovelling, offer outstanding Rent, over €700k, interest and costs, and only because of a petition by the landlord to wind up the parent company. The Campbells have run out of excuses and any attempt to blame the Covid-19 19 lockdown is outrageous. They were very quick to make all their staff redundant and this seems lost in the media coverage.

Sad to say I hope they get their Justs desserts (excuse the pun), the landlord (another charming beaut) has the upper hand here and I believe he'll go all the way and rid himself of this troublesome tenant once and for all.

Yeah all of the above is what I feared and if it turns out to the be the case that the Campbells were trying to play hardball with Ronan in order to get a rent reduction whilst making their own staff the collateral damage then that is a really scummy move on their part.

It certainly seems strange that they were bleating the poor mouth in May and now in July they're waving cheques about the place. Those 110 staff are not going to find it easy to find new job in hospitality in the current environment.

Dempo1

Really quite disgusting, most media seem to be lamenting tragic downfall of this once iconic institution. When the sad reality is for years the company behind this cafe has been acting the maggot. The staff and indeed suppliers have been treated disgracefully.

Darc19

Muahahaha wrote: »

I wonder what happened that they couldnt afford the rent in May but now are offering to pay all the rent arrears and interest and legal costs. 110 people lost their jobs in the meantime.

No jobs have been lost yet. Whilst they said the store was not reopening, no notice was given to staff yet.

It's all gameplay

Imo, Campbell was using the lockdown as a bargaining tool to force down the rent and try and get people riled up.

Ronan couldn't give a rats arse what daily mail readers think and the plan backfired on Campbell when a lot of the comments were about poor service, high prices and insipid atmosphere.

Ronan also gave statements saying that Campbell had not informed him of the closure intent and that rent had not been paid despite millions in the parent company account. He also offered to sell the building at the market price.


Bewleys themselves are a large company. Ireland is a small part of it. But the iconic Cafe is something they use a lot in their marketing in the uk and USA

Dempo1

Darc19 wrote: »

No jobs have been lost yet. Whilst they said the store was not reopening, no notice was given to staff yet.

It's all gameplay

Imo, Campbell was using the lockdown as a bargaining tool to force down the rent and try and get people riled up.

Ronan couldn't give a rats arse what daily mail readers think and the plan backfired on Campbell when a lot of the comments were about poor service, high prices and insipid atmosphere.

Ronan also gave statements saying that Campbell had not informed him of the closure intent and that rent had not been paid despite millions in the parent company account. He also offered to sell the building at the market price.


Bewleys themselves are a large company. Ireland is a small part of it. But the iconic Cafe is something they use a lot in their marketing in the uk and USA

Perhaps I'm wrong but Bewleys themselves annouced all staff being let go

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/staff-at-bewley-s-cafe-on-grafton-street-are-made-redundant-1.4293787

Unfortunately the games commenced years ago with numerous rent disputes, I believe this latest debacle was cynically created by bewleys on the back of the Covid-19 crisis. I do however believe Ronan wants the property back and the Campbells have played their last deck of cards in this long running game. The real losers are both staff and suppliers. I'd rarely ever side with Ronan on anything but any right minded and objective bystander can see Campbells are completly out of order and wrong.

Darc19

Caquas wrote: »

But everything has to change if the rent is 30 K. a month. No more students nursing cheap coffees as they debate the great issues for hours. No more genteel ladies sharing a sticky bun.

A thousand euro every day before you even open the doors.

30k a month - that would be an absolute bargain. 30k a week is the rent.

High, but not outrageously high. The building is about 10,000 Sq ft.

To give an idea of rents in prime areas, Smiggle are paying €200,000 a year for their tiny shop in Dundrum (that's why they are so expensive)

Closer to bewleys, Victoria Secret is paying €1.8million for their store.

Market rent for bewleys building is certainly over €1m a year once covid issue is gone (vaccine will come and the world will get back to normal)

Dempo1

Darc19 wrote: »

30k a month - that would be an absolute bargain. 30k a week is the rent.

High, but not outrageously high. The building is about 10,000 Sq ft.

To give an idea of rents in prime areas, Smiggle are paying €200,000 a year for their tiny shop in Dundrum (that's why they are so expensive)

Closer to bewleys, Victoria Secret is paying €1.8million for their store.

Market rent for bewleys building is certainly over €1m a year once covid issue is gone (vaccine will come and the world will get back to normal)

This is not about historical rent, it's about the Tenant not paying it and not for the first time. I've no doubt rent negotiations will take place with new Tenants, although I suspect landlord as other plans for the premises

Caquas

Caquas wrote: »

Once upon a time, up until the 1990s, it was one of the few places you could get decent coffee in Dublin. With steamed milk, not frothy like a cappucinno. And there was an atmosphere - people meeting, relaxing, talking.

But everything has to change if the rent is 30 K. a month. No more students nursing cheap coffees as they debate the great issues for hours. No more genteel ladies sharing a sticky bun.

I wonder how much rent Starbucks on the Green is paying? It's essentially a breakout/study study area for RCSI at this stage.

They also do something very nice, or did pre Covid, which an assistant told me one night when I was grabbing a coffee. If a homeless person comes in and orders a coffee, they can stay for the night as long as they're keeping to themselves. He said other 24-hour premises in the area have agreed the same policy, like fast food places. Nice isn't it? I always go there for coffee now, even if it isn't great coffee.

That's a bit of an aside but just to show that others seem to be managing to cover their costs whilst Bewleys seems to have over reached.

Dempo1

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I wonder how much rent Starbucks on the Green is paying? It's essentially a breakout/study study area for RCSI at this stage.

They also do something very nice, or did pre Covid, which an assistant told me one night when I was grabbing a coffee. If a homeless person comes in and orders a coffee, they can stay for the night as long as they're keeping to themselves. He said other 24-hour premises in the area have agreed the same policy, like fast food places. Nice isn't it? I always go there for coffee now, even if it isn't great coffee.

That's a bit of an aside but just to show that others seem to be managing to cover their costs whilst Bewleys seems to have over reached.

Very nice gesture from them and its heartening to see any business doing the decent thing.

Darc19

Dempo1 wrote: »

This is not about historical rent, it's about the Tenant not paying it and not for the first time. I've no doubt rent negotiations will take place with new Tenants, although I suspect landlord as other plans for the premises

Commercial lease is different to residential lease. Once a tenant is in a unit for more than 5 years, they have entitlement to new lease unless they have signed a renunciation of the rights. (highly unlikely in this case)

So when the current lease ends, bewleys can walk away, but if they want a new lease, it must be given and if there's a dispute over rent, that can go to binding arbitration.

I suspect bewleys will be there for many more years, but the format has to change. It needs to go back to being a meeting place with atmosphere.

Darc19

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I wonder how much rent Starbucks on the Green is paying? It's essentially a breakout/study study area for RCSI at this stage.

€116,000 a year.
Originally was €81,000 when they took it in 2013.

Reviewed to €116,000 in 2018

Caquas

Darc19 wrote: »

30k a month - that would be an absolute bargain. 30k a week is the rent.

High, but not outrageously high. The building is about 10,000 Sq ft.

To give an idea of rents in prime areas, Smiggle are paying €200,000 a year for their tiny shop in Dundrum (that's why they are so expensive)

Closer to bewleys, Victoria Secret is paying €1.8million for their store.

Market rent for bewleys building is certainly over €1m a year once covid issue is gone (vaccine will come and the world will get back to normal)

Thanks, my point is stronger than I thought.

No amount of milky coffee is going to generate almost €4,300 of profit every day (even if they can get robots to replace all the staff they laid off).

If the customers are socially distanced, they’d each have to spend about four times more on average than in recent times, which was probably 10 times what the customers of yore would pay.

This rent is unsustainable during the pandemic i.e. for the next year at least.

Darc19

Caquas wrote: »

Thanks, my point is stronger than I thought.

No amount of milky coffee is going to generate almost €4,300 of profit every day (even if they can get robots to replace all the staff they laid off).

If the customers are socially distanced, they’d each have to spend about four times more on average than in recent times, which was probably 10 times what the customers of yore would pay.

This rent is unsustainable during the pandemic i.e. for the next year at least.

Their turnover last year was in excess of €5m.

30% of turnover as rent is not unknown in the food and beverages business, but the ideal target is 20%.

RCK1

I passed by it last night and the notices saying goodbye are gone and they windows uncovered. Various media reports says it due to reopen in the coming weeks.

Delighted if it does as its such an important part of the citys history and culture which I love visiting. Yes it was slightly more expensive but it was a great experience. In saying that the food menu could be more varied and better value with less focus on being fancy.

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

One of the reasons for the recent renovations was to help make it easier to run and more profitable. The Bewleys parent company is trading off the cafes name and reputation and their branding is based on the Harry Clarke windows so surely it's in their interest to keep it going? Johnny Ronan is a word that rhymes with anchor/bamker/tanker,the videos in South Africa prove that, but the Campbells created this situation by selling the building to make a quick buck when they took over the Bewleys company.

Strumms

RCK1 wrote: »

I passed by it last night and the notices saying goodbye are gone and they windows uncovered. Various media reports says it due to reopen in the coming weeks.

Delighted if it does as its such an important part of the citys history and culture which I love visiting. Yes it was slightly more expensive but it was a great experience. In saying that the food menu could be more varied and better value with less focus on being fancy.

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

One of the reasons for the recent renovations was to help make it easier to run and more profitable. The Bewleys parent company is trading off the cafes name and reputation and their branding is based on the Harry Clarke windows so surely it's in their interest to keep it going? Johnny Ronan is a word that rhymes with anchor/bamker/tanker,the videos in South Africa prove that, but the Campbells created this situation by selling the building to make a quick buck when they took over the Bewleys company.

Agreed, JR would buy the airport if he could and turn it into a casino in an ideal world... “ehhh JR you have shut Dublin Airport, the country’s major, travel, transport and logistics hub, what do you say?”... “yes, but it will make me richer, that’s all I care about, next !?”

yourdeadwright

RCK1 wrote: »

I passed by it last night and the notices saying goodbye are gone and they windows uncovered. Various media reports says it due to reopen in the coming weeks.

Delighted if it does as its such an important part of the citys history and culture which I love visiting. Yes it was slightly more expensive but it was a great experience. In saying that the food menu could be more varied and better value with less focus on being fancy.

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

One of the reasons for the recent renovations was to help make it easier to run and more profitable. The Bewleys parent company is trading off the cafes name and reputation and their branding is based on the Harry Clarke windows so surely it's in their interest to keep it going? Johnny Ronan is a word that rhymes with anchor/bamker/tanker,the videos in South Africa prove that, but the Campbells created this situation by selling the building to make a quick buck when they took over the Bewleys company.

I seen an article on Dublin live a few days ago

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/historic-bewleys-set-reopen-grafton-18667850

L1011

RCK1 wrote: »

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

Yes, it would be an entirely new lease

Unless the retail market massively improves, the new rent would be significantly lower not slightly lower. Rent would be set by arbitration, not RGRE and unlike last time the rent was recommended to be massively cut; there won't be a legal angle to appeal - that law is well settled.

Victorias Secret's awful deal keeps getting mentioned on here as if its a baseline for further leases - its not, its the modern equivalent of someones 2007 Tiger era lease. There are plenty of shops on Grafton Street that won't be reopening and more that may re-close.