If Work From Home becomes a thing...

22-07-2020 11:17PM

Cyrus wrote: »

I know a few people in Facebook who have done well, large part of their remuneration was in the stock based comp they got , they were all in sales or sales management .

If you think any of the brains of these companies are located anywhere but in the west coast you are codding yourself .

Well some of the key tech for Oculus is being developed in cork where Facebook bought out the company but retained it in cork so it’s far from the truth to say that none of the brains of these companies are outside the US.

Cyrus · 22-07-2020 11:20PM

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

Well some of the key tech for Oculus is being developed in cork where Facebook bought out the company but retained it in cork so it’s far from the truth to say that none of the brains of these companies are outside the US.

It’s the truth there may be a few pockets here and there but you are taking about an acquired company that’s working on a component of a bigger project , that’s not the norm it’s an outlier .

Danzy · 22-07-2020 11:21PM

Cyrus wrote: »

Absolutely not, but I know where these companies locate their top engineering talent , and it’s not Ireland .

But feel free to educate me.

And while you are getting down off your high horse , where did I say any of those jobs aren’t skilled ?

You admit you don't know and you demonstrate it as well.

Biker79 · 22-07-2020 11:21PM

maherhonda wrote: »

Network engineers, Storage engineers, Programmers, Cloud engineers, Data center engineers etc, Design engineers, Linux Engineers, Windows Engineers, Messaging engineers, Security, Pen testing

They are medium skilled. All of them require basic knowledge of a Third-party product with also enough knowledge to deal with unexpected behaviour.

By in large, these tech roles are the janitors and plumbers of the 21st centrury. Probably have a better chance of getting laid as a plumber, mind you :pac:

22-07-2020 11:30PM

Biker79 wrote: »

They are medium skilled. All of them require basic knowledge of a Third-party product with also enough knowledge to deal with unexpected behaviour.

By in large, these tech roles are the janitors and plumbers of the 21st centrury. Probably have a better chance of getting laid as a plumber, mind you :pac:

These are highly skilled roles, honestly I’m not sure you know what you are talking about. what are the highly skilled roles of it’s not these?

Edit: I say this as someone in a level above this again in skill level but I do not deny these are very skilled roles too.

Danzy · 22-07-2020 11:37PM

Biker79 wrote: »

They are medium skilled. All of them require basic knowledge of a Third-party product with also enough knowledge to deal with unexpected behaviour.

By in large, these tech roles are the janitors and plumbers of the 21st centrury. Probably have a better chance of getting laid as a plumber, mind you :pac:

They are highly complex jobs.

Biker79 · 22-07-2020 11:47PM

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

These are highly skilled roles, honestly I’m not sure you know what you are talking about. what are the highly skilled roles of it’s not these?

I wouldnt say so. Principally, because most of these products are well designed, meant to work out of the box with minimal maintenance and configuration.

High skill is programming a network from scratch on some open source platforms. Its developing a new product, making a new R&D discovery.

Installing a Palo Alto virtual firewall on a vcentre, building a server, migrating to the cloud etc.....are all medium skilled jobs with established processes. There is even support from the respective vendors if you make a bags of it.

Same level of ability as plumber/ electrician... I would say. Like either of those ...it can get complex , but for the most part it isn't.

Cyrus · 23-07-2020 08:41AM

Danzy wrote: »

You admit you don't know and you demonstrate it as well.

You’ll have to point out to me where I said those roles are unskilled

What I said was the higher paying roles in the tech cos here are in sales and they aren’t particularly skilled roles .

But don’t let that get in the way of your indignation

And if you are honest you know where the top engineering talent is .

23-07-2020 08:57AM

I don't understand why everyone has to pretend they are at cutting edge genius level .......... lots of well paid gigs out there that you don't need to be 14th dan level guru to plod along quite nicely without feeling like you underachieving.

fret_wimp2 · 23-07-2020 09:07AM

Biker79 wrote: »

I wouldnt say so. Principally, because most of these products are well designed, meant to work out of the box with minimal maintenance and configuration.

High skill is programming a network from scratch on some open source platforms. Its developing a new product, making a new R&D discovery.

Installing a Palo Alto virtual firewall on a vcentre, building a server, migrating to the cloud etc.....are all medium skilled jobs with established processes. There is even support from the respective vendors if you make a bags of it.

Same level of ability as plumber/ electrician... I would say. Like either of those ...it can get complex , but for the most part it isn't.

This is just categorically incorrect.

You know a few IT terms and managed to put them In a sentence but even then, the sentence "programming a network from scratch" doesn't even make sensse so I'm not sure you're in a position to comment.

Yes building an OS or cloud fabric from scratch is exceptionally high skill, or any product for that matter, but it's all done using a base set of tools and platforms to abstract people from low level operations, turning a task that could take 1000 likes of code in a lower level language into a single call.

Integrating or "plumbing" these systems together is no different from a skills perspective, the task in hand is simply a different one.

The cloud platforms you think are trivial to operate are designed to make tasks and implementation of processes easier but underlying knowledge of networking, architecture, data structures, performance profiles, security profiles, pros and cons etc of each technology are all still needed.

Just because something has a nice interface does not make it trivial to use.

And at the end of the day, these platforms are just tools, useless without the knowledge of how they work, how to implement on them, how to Integrate and link them, how to write new tools thst exist on these platforms etc.

The Spider · 23-07-2020 09:23AM

Mr Meanor wrote: »

According to this article If your in high paid middle management it seems the company didn't miss you!
Companies now saying maybe they don't need them back, ever.

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/this-billionaire-investor-says-white-collar-workers-jobs-are-in-jeopardy

I've been saying this from day one, the people who are screaming about going back to the office will be middle managers, who dont really do anything and know it, I've been one for years in a previous company, and if you're team is Good at what they do realistically there's not tyst much fof you to do except report in on how things are going.

Some managers try to compensate by getting involved, but then if you get too involved you're micromanaging.

It must be absolute hell, for a lot of them, not knowing who they're teams are dealing with over Skype, and thats the real reason they want people back in the office, not collaboration, its so they can keep an eye, and psychologically think they can prevent team members getting too close to their bosses if they're all in the same place.

Cyrus · 23-07-2020 09:44AM

The Spider wrote: »

I've been saying this from day one, the people who are screaming about going back to the office will be middle managers, who dont really do anything and know it, I've been one for years in a previous company, and if you're team is Good at what they do realistically there's not tyst much fof you to do except report in on how things are going.

Some managers try to compensate by getting involved, but then if you get too involved you're micromanaging.

It must be absolute hell, for a lot of them, not knowing who they're teams are dealing with over Skype, and thats the real reason they want people back in the office, not collaboration, its so they can keep an eye, and psychologically think they can prevent team members getting too close to their bosses if they're all in the same place.

yeah its the management, out to get the worker bees who do all the work i tells ya :P

if only they left them alone and didnt manage them, imagine what they could achieve.

if management is so unimportant why does it exist? and why hasnt someone figured out a way to get rid of all these useless managers? if they are paid more than everyone else surely its on someones agenda?

jrosen · 23-07-2020 09:50AM

Or the management who want a return are privy to information the average worker isn't and they can see the benefits to a return to the office in some capacity.
Anyone I talk to says how less productive they are, how its a struggle with their kids, connection, not a suitable office space Yet pop onto Boards and its the opposite.

Hopefully there is an increase in work from home for people especially those who commute but its not going to be the mass exodus people think it will be.

limnam · 23-07-2020 10:09AM

Cyrus wrote: »

yeah its the management, out to get the worker bees who do all the work i tells ya :P

if only they left them alone and didnt manage them, imagine what they could achieve.

if management is so unimportant why does it exist? and why hasnt someone figured out a way to get rid of all these useless managers? if they are paid more than everyone else surely its on someones agenda?

In order to get rid of them you need a way to filter out needy worker types.

It's the future.

beauf · 23-07-2020 10:16AM

Biker79 wrote: »

I wouldnt say so. Principally, because most of these products are well designed, meant to work out of the box with minimal maintenance and configuration.

High skill is programming a network from scratch on some open source platforms. Its developing a new product, making a new R&D discovery.

Installing a Palo Alto virtual firewall on a vcentre, building a server, migrating to the cloud etc.....are all medium skilled jobs with established processes. There is even support from the respective vendors if you make a bags of it.

Same level of ability as plumber/ electrician... I would say. Like either of those ...it can get complex , but for the most part it isn't.

Sounds like you don't know either the building industry or the IT industry, or indeed any of these roles.

I'd explain it only...

kippy · 23-07-2020 10:18AM

jrosen wrote: »

Or the management who want a return are privy to information the average worker isn't and they can see the benefits to a return to the office in some capacity.
Anyone I talk to says how less productive they are, how its a struggle with their kids, connection, not a suitable office space Yet pop onto Boards and its the opposite.

Hopefully there is an increase in work from home for people especially those who commute but its not going to be the mass exodus people think it will be.

Boards users are GENERALLY more techie, of a more specific age profile and probably working in an area where WFH may already have been in play or may have been well aligned to a WFH environment. It's not reflective of the wider populace.
My own close friends would generally be in those demographic types as well so all I tend to see are the positive spins.
Now, from what I am seeing in the wider sense - where a job leads itself to WFH in an ideal world MOST people, particularly younger and those early into their careers would prefer some "work environment" access and I can see why.
I personally, don't mind WFH, even in it's current guise, once you set some specific policies around it and you personally setup some boundaries and get kitted out. Even at that, I am a social person and I do like the engagement with other staff in person and I have to say you get to know people far better in person and have opportunities for non work related conversations or indeed less formal work related conversations in person. For that reason alone, I think a split week is an ideal scenario for most people.

Then there are the people who just cannot adapt to WFH at all, both on a staff and management side. In fairness when you drop WFH on an organisation that has never done it, you are going to have that!

Biker79 · 23-07-2020 10:22AM

beauf wrote: »

Sounds like you don't know either the building industry or the IT industry, or indeed any of these roles.

I'd explain it only...

beauf · 23-07-2020 10:28AM

jrosen wrote: »

Or the management who want a return are privy to information the average worker isn't and they can see the benefits to a return to the office in some capacity.
Anyone I talk to says how less productive they are, how its a struggle with their kids, connection, not a suitable office space Yet pop onto Boards and its the opposite.

Hopefully there is an increase in work from home for people especially those who commute but its not going to be the mass exodus people think it will be.

That's because boards isn't representative of Ireland in general.

To know how productive someone is, you have to measure and monitor it, output, objectives achieved etc. It surprising how few do that. Fewer still will have systems in place to do it remotely.

The other thing is that even where there difficulties with working from home. Perhaps they have a lot less impact than working in the office. So for example the distractions at home might add up to less time than commuting, or having to take time of to manage things at home.

I would expect in our office about 30~40% would prefer to be in the office. Some of that has nothing to do with productivity.

beauf · 23-07-2020 10:32AM

kippy wrote: »

Boards users are GENERALLY more techie, of a more specific age profile and probably working in an area where WFH may already have been in play or may have been well aligned to a WFH environment. It's not reflective of the wider populace.
My own close friends would generally be in those demographic types as well so all I tend to see are the positive spins.
Now, from what I am seeing in the wider sense - where a job leads itself to WFH in an ideal world MOST people, particularly younger and those early into their careers would prefer some "work environment" access and I can see why.
I personally, don't mind WFH, even in it's current guise, once you set some specific policies around it and you personally setup some boundaries and get kitted out. Even at that, I am a social person and I do like the engagement with other staff in person and I have to say you get to know people far better in person and have opportunities for non work related conversations or indeed less formal work related conversations in person. For that reason alone, I think a split week is an ideal scenario for most people.

Then there are the people who just cannot adapt to WFH at all, both on a staff and management side. In fairness when you drop WFH on an organisation that has never done it, you are going to have that!

I deal with quite a few people who much prefer unplanned and rambling ad hoc chats than writing things down. They are incredibly inefficient. These people can't wait to get back into the office.

radiotrickster · 23-07-2020 10:36AM

It’s not possible to judge whether people as a whole will be more or less productive working from home. There are too many variables, even from job to job.

I know one person who said they’re more productive and get a days work done in four hours because they haven’t got as many distractions (chatting in the office, random meetings that don’t need to be meetings, making tea to get a break from the work, etc).

I know secretaries who have said it’s easier to get anything on the computer done because they don’t have to deal with the distraction of calls as whoever is in the office manages that now. But when you’re in the office, you have to do things where if you’re disrupted, you won’t lose your train of thought as you’re dealing with lots of calls.

Wompa1 · 23-07-2020 10:45AM

Have worked 100% remotely for 3 years. I am definitely more productive at home but it's to a fault. Work life balance is terrible. I decided last year to make a change and rented an office in the city for myself, going out of pocket. I worked in the office 3 days a week and home the other two days. It was great to get out and socialize a bit. Also good to have a bit more variety for lunch at times. There was a lad during the summer who would busk just outside the building. It had a lovely vibe.

Unfortunately, the management company wouldn't allow me to renew my lease. They found a charity who wanted to rent the entire floor, not just individual offices. Turns out that was a blessing in disguise considering what has happened now.

If the virus gets completely eradicated, I hope to move into a co-working space in the nearest village. It seems these have become very common around the country.

I'm lucky. I live in the sticks but get 1Gbps broadband. I have an office in my house with a high quality chair and hardware.

Most tech jobs with multi-nationals in Ireland are support roles. I'm sure of that. They don't necessarily pay very well but are a great opportunity still and from speaking with executives in large US tech companies, the jobs in Ireland are much more secure than most of their other locations.

Dyr · 23-07-2020 10:49AM

kippy wrote: »

Even at that, I am a social person and I do like the engagement with other staff in person and I have to say you get to know people far better in person and have opportunities for non work related conversations or indeed less formal work related conversations in person. For that reason alone, I think a split week is an ideal scenario for most people.

Then there are the people who just cannot adapt to WFH at all, both on a staff and management side. In fairness when you drop WFH on an organisation that has never done it, you are going to have that!

There are drawbacks to WFH but I think companies are going to realise they can save a fortune on their facilities, insurance, HR and absenteeism if they can make it work. Long term it could mean the gig econmy comes to the office environment with a vengeance which is not ideal but there you are

I'm finding it funny that a lot of the peope I deal with who cant handle WFH at all are the serial desk ambushers and micro managers who now have to stand on their own two feet

23-07-2020 10:53AM

Cyrus wrote: »

You’ll have to point out to me where I said those roles are unskilled

What I said was the higher paying roles in the tech cos here are in sales and they aren’t particularly skilled roles .

But don’t let that get in the way of your indignation

And if you are honest you know where the top engineering talent is .

That actually came up in a meeting yesterday. There was a question regarding pay parity between tech and sales. The answer that came back was "Some of our sales guys make deals of a million+. If you work in tech but think you can make a similar deal, then movie to sales and you will earn more".

I've worked alongside sales guys for years. Many of them didn't know their arse from their elbow from a tech point of view, but were earning double or more than me. So why don't I move to sales? Because I couldn't do it. I'd be bored to tears. I'm an introverted techie. I can't talk the ears off a donkey like some of them can.

Cyrus · 23-07-2020 10:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That actually came up in a meeting yesterday. There was a question regarding pay parity between tech and sales. The answer that came back was "Some of our sales guys make deals of a million+. If you work in tech but think you can make a similar deal, then movie to sales and you will earn more".

I've worked alongside sales guys for years. Many of them didn't know their arse from their elbow from a tech point of view, but were earning double or more than me. So why don't I move to sales? Because I couldn't do it. I'd be bored to tears. I'm an introverted techie. I can't talk the ears off a donkey like some of them can.

yes id agree with most of that, sales skills while they can be honed, are generally within a person, some people are sales people some arent, and in that sphere academics comes secondary to the ability to do a deal, and the very good ones get paid a lot, and good luck to them.

so they are skilled in a way, but not a conventional way.

i would be awful at it too as it goes.

23-07-2020 11:06AM

Cyrus wrote: »

yes id agree with most of that, sales skills while they can be honed, are generally within a person, some people are sales people some arent, and in that sphere academics comes secondary to the ability to do a deal, and the very good ones get paid a lot, and good luck to them.

so they are skilled in a way, but not a conventional way.

i would be awful at it too as it goes.

I was out of work a few years ago and was considering as a stop gap being a floor worker in PC World. My partner at the time talked me out of it, because A) I'd be terrible, and

Probably wouldn't last very long because I'd be unable to push the likes of Norton Anti-virus for 70 odd quid on customer, instead I'd be telling them to download AVG which was free in those days. And C) I'd be unhappy. She was right.

Technocentral · 23-07-2020 11:09AM

andrew1977 wrote: »

Back to the office for the 23 or so of us 10th August , email sent today to everyone from the management
Redesign of the office , seats 2 metres apart , plastic screens at each work station, no gathering in the kitchen for lunch breaks etc .

Training on health and safety and Covid practices to be complete online week before we return .

Full crew of us all return same day and normal office hours again going forward .

We worked fine remotely all of us , everything done and more of our workload . The culture is “ have them in the office “, MD is old school .

Back to my 2 hour round trip commute per day and 55 euro or so a week on diesel .

Working from home made such a positive impact to my wellbeing , 19 years commuting , was such a difference the time back I gained at home ,leaving aside the running costs of the car .

But considering the jobs market and how things might look going forward for the economy, I won’t grumble too much compared to situations others are facing .

Sorry to here that, dinosaur thinking still alive and well.

Wompa1 · 23-07-2020 11:16AM

Bambi wrote: »

There are drawbacks to WFH but I think companies are going to realise they can save a fortune on their facilities, insurance, HR and absenteeism if they can make it work. Long term it could mean the gig econmy comes to the office environment with a vengeance which is not ideal but there you are

I have been the only 100% remote employee in my company for a while. They made an exception when I tried to give notice that I was leaving and moving back to Ireland.

For the last 18 months, the company has been working on a work from home strategy. Well before COVID and it's purely for saving money. They reckon that they'd save about 27 million in the first 5 years by just moving the tech and admin staff remote.

It's been interesting to see if play out. Before announcing any work from home initiative, they stopped paying a stipend to people for their phone bill. They had been paying it to anyone who was expected to work on-call. There was a lot of resistance and compromise just for that.

COVID expedited everything. It's been exhausting to keep up with and try to support.

Biker79 · 23-07-2020 11:16AM

Technocentral wrote: »

Sorry to here that, dinosaur thinking still alive and well.

Can you explain why this is dinosaur thinking? Afterall, its the thinking of someone who runs a business and keeps people in jobs.

Why would your opinion be better than theirs. Have you also successfully ran a company?

kippy · 23-07-2020 11:17AM

Bambi wrote: »

There are drawbacks to WFH but I think companies are going to realise they can save a fortune on their facilities, insurance, HR and absenteeism if they can make it work. Long term it could mean the gig econmy comes to the office environment with a vengeance which is not ideal but there you are

I'm finding it funny that a lot of the peope I deal with who cant handle WFH at all are the serial desk ambushers and micro managers who now have to stand on their own two feet

Companies can save a fortune IF and only IF - the go entirely WFH AND productivity/culture does not suffer. This does not suit every company.
I think most companies wont want to go entirely WFH and there are massive considerations around what resources (people and other) they need to have in a physical building.
(all of what I am saying btw, is in the context of those roles that re WFH friendly in the first instance, there are obviously roles that aren't)

beauf · 23-07-2020 11:57AM

Wompa1 wrote: »

....
Most tech jobs with multi-nationals in Ireland are support roles. I'm sure of that. They don't necessarily pay very well but are a great opportunity still and from speaking with executives in large US tech companies, the jobs in Ireland are much more secure than most of their other locations.

With every industry there is a pyramid of high paid and low paid also high skill sets and low skill sets. The vast majority of people in most industries will be the lower paid. That's why its a pyramid. Same with skill sets.

While the big multi-nationals have a lot of support jobs. A certain % of these are highly technical. Tier 3 and above. Its misleading to compare them with lower tech support jobs. They will take years of experience and training to acquire those skill sets. They get paid well because relatively few people will acquire these deep skill sets and experience.

Also the IT industry in Ireland is filled with lots of native development companies and a lot of their R&D is done here. Even when its outsourced it will be run operationally from the parent company in Ireland.

Obviously there are hotspots in the west coast of the US etc. But its a mistake to think this is the only place where R&D is done.

If Work From Home becomes a thing...

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