Nissan Leaf battery upgrade

Black_Knight

ReadySteadyGo wrote: »

"Would car Insurance still be valid" is a significant concern for me.

I'd assume under normal circumstances (ie. a crash) they'd not even look at the specifics, just the vin and it's factory spec. If it was the case where the battery went on fire something, they might look a bit closer.

You will have to notify your insurance, a battery modification is a major thing in an EV, that would be a foolish mistake to make by not notifying the insurance company.

Why should they pay out if this modified battery was the cause of a fire, causing a house fire in the process if the car is in a garage attached to the house etc ?

Paying 9K on a battery upgrade is risky enough, not notifying the insurance is foolish, they will look for any excuse not to pay out and one of the things they ask you when you sigh up is has your car been modified and they'd be well within their rights not to pay out.

So before spending money call them up and ask them can the car be insured with a battery upgrade and if they say yes make sure if you do get the upgrade that you notify them and they have it on record and to send you documentation that they have it on record.

SlowBlowin

Maybe one of the boards members with a leaf could call their insurer and ask if replacing the battery with a non-Nissan/non-automotive battery is OK.

unkel

ReadySteadyGo wrote: »

I think you could cross or upsell many folks
1. some form of chassis/mounting/container to easily use their old leaf battery as a solar battery for their house.

Good idea in theory, but not so easy in practice. There's a lot to this stuff. Best just give a discount off the price of a new battery. Or people can keep the battery and have a go at it themselves. Not rocket science either, but it will quickly turn into a bit of a hobby, I can tell you that much

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Maybe one of the boards members with a leaf could call their insurer and ask if replacing the battery with a non-Nissan/non-automotive battery is OK.

I thought you owned a Leaf?

SlowBlowin

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I thought you owned a Leaf?

You know I dont, you asked me that in post 98, and confirmed my answer as a no in post 105.

If you are not trolling then you need to seek medical advice about your memory.

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

You know I dont, you asked me that in post 98, and confirmed my answer as a no in post 105.

If you are not trolling then you need to seek medical advice about your memory.

Yes trolling.....that is exactly what my first thought was

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Good idea in theory, but not so easy in practice. There's a lot to this stuff. Best just give a discount off the price of a new battery. Or people can keep the battery and have a go at it themselves. Not rocket science either, but it will quickly turn into a bit of a hobby, I can tell you that much

There are ready made kits for solar conversion, just watching this now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlCz40bCZZM

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes trolling.....that is exactly what my first thought was

I think SlowBlowin made it pretty clear he doesn't own a Leaf but is thinking of buying one. He is also very experienced with all stuff to do with batteries and he has shown a lot of constructive criticism in this thread. Trolling is the last word I would pick for any of this, Shefwedfan.

unkel

SlowBlowin wrote: »

There are ready made kits for solar conversion, just watching this now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlCz40bCZZM

Nice and I like the form factor. And no cooling is no issue for a power wall (but you don't want to charge this below zero either). Very expensive for what they are though, particularly if you take into account many of them will be close to 50% degradation like the one Jehu was testing. Far too expensive per kWh for my liking.

If I could get my hands on a bunch of them for very cheap, I would have a go of them though

SlowBlowin

I have done some research and it seems regulation is in process, although everything seems to be a proposal.

There are dedicated third party services to confirm batteries meet EU safety requirements:

https://www.intertek.com/batteries/automotive-battery-ev-testing/

As I understand it (no expert) batteries must have type approval, meaning "modules" from Nissan/Tesla etc can be used, but any third party battery without type approval can not be used in an automotive application.

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Nice and I like the form factor. And no cooling is no issue for a power wall (but you don't want to charge this below zero either). Very expensive for what they are though, particularly if you take into account many of them will be close to 50% degradation like the one Jehu was testing. Far too expensive per kWh for my liking.

If I could get my hands on a bunch of them for very cheap, I would have a go of them though

Agreed, its too much of a gamble 50% is no good for me, I think the OPs LG cells would be a better starting point for stationary storage. But as you said if Leaf batteries were available on the cheap then it makes some sense..

Hopefully as more and more come on the 2nd user market more module/bms kits will appear too, as has happened with the 18650 format.

As always its the design/construction of the complete module that is the critical thing to keep the cells healthy...

charlieIRL

Deleted User wrote: »

You will have to notify your insurance, a battery modification is a major thing in an EV, that would be a foolish mistake to make by not notifying the insurance company.

I wonder how many people informed their insurance company if there ICE vehicle has its engine replaced??
Not identical but similar

SlowBlowin

charlieIRL wrote: »

I wonder how many people informed their insurance company if there ICE vehicle has its engine replaced??
Not identical but similar

True - that would be interesting to know.

There is no issue replacing a Nissan battery with another Nissan battery, the equivalent of replacing an ICE.

A better analogy would be making your own engine from non car parts, installing it and not telling insurance.

Still, despite being something many people might consider, one can not condone that notion, not least as it against boards rules to encourage illegal behaviour. Personally, if I had the cells, and the OPs knowledge of the Nissan BMS it might be something I would consider.

charlieIRL

charlieIRL wrote: »

I wonder how many people informed their insurance company if there ICE vehicle has its engine replaced??
Not identical but similar

That's not nearly the same at all, you're replacing like for like. If you're not that's a different matter.

If this new engine was modified then that's a different story, you could plead ignorance but it might not do any good that's if they bother investigating such Things matters in Ireland.

optimal

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not nearly the same at all, you're replacing like for like. If you're not that's a different matter.

If this new engine was modified then that's a different story, you could plead ignorance but it might not do any good that's if they bother investigating such Things matters in Ireland.

The more serious the accident the more likely Insurers will investigate. And the more serious the accident the greater your need for insurance. I know I would not be driving myself, or my family, in a car where there is any risk of a claim being refused by the Insurance company. And I have no doubt they will hunt for ways to get out of a claim, especially in times like this. Claiming ignorance will absolutely get you nowhere. The bottom line is that this will have to be done right for everyone's sake.

liamog

Let's say you take an L24 and fit an L40 battery to it, it's not really a like for like replacement.

Probably the bigger concern for the insurer will be the percieved value, you've either modified the car to increase it's value, and therefore should recieve more for a write off. Or it's not affected the value, and therefore will be paid out according to an L24 with a degraded battery.

slave1

Insurance premium has little to do with car value, more cost in case of accident

optimal

liamog wrote: »

Let's say you take an L24 and fit an L40 battery to it, it's not really a like for like replacement.

Probably the bigger concern for the insurer will be the percieved value, you've either modified the car to increase it's value, and therefore should recieve more for a write off. Or it's not affected the value, and therefore will be paid out according to an L24 with a degraded battery.

I don't want to labour the point but the biggest risk for me would be being in a serious accident and then being told I had invalidated my insurance with possibly a massive claim against me.

Pkiernan

The OP hasn't answered any questions around safety and certification.

At minimum a CE Declaration of Conformity is required to sell his product.

Pkiernan

Pkiernan wrote: »

The OP hasn't answered any questions around safety and certification.

At minimum a CE Declaration of Conformity is required to sell his product.

I'm not sure CE is relevant here, perhaps Type approval ?

CE is nothing anyway, it's just a stamp that's required by law to be placed on products which means the company themselves has declared their products meet the required spec etc but it's BS half the electronic products today don't meet regulations.

I'll give you a good example.

I hold a valid legal Amateur radio license which allows me to communicate on several bands on the Shortwave radio spectrum and above as set out by the International Telecommunications Union, this radio spectrum is protected by local and international law meaning if someone buys a dodgy cheap laptop power supply on ebay that interferes with this protected radio spectrum, I can contact COMREG and they can ask you to remove it, if you don't then they can take legal action, COMREG can get the ESB to fix a dodgy connection on an electric pole or get the neighbour to replace a dodgy cheap woodies no name LED Bulb etc.

All electronic goods are supposed to be tested to make sure they do not emit electromagnetic radiation which will cause interference to the use of another device which is illegal.

Just today I had the electric gates control board replaced for free because of a bad switch mode psu, It was drastically interfering with my radio operation when in my Mothers, the replacement came with a Meanwell PSU which is a quality manufacturer of power supplies. The company acknowledged the issue and replaced it, they have to by law because when they sell something it must comply with the law.

All this by the way can and does interfere with broadband connections too.

So anyway after all that, a CE mark is meaningless if the product itself does not comply with law.

And when buying replacement phone/laptop chargers etc, buy the original from a reputable source as you could be in for a surprise or worse, cause a fire!

Pkiernan

That's why I specified a CE DoC as opposed to marking.

This idea is a disaster waiting to happen without certification

As well as that I'd imagine for Automotive use there'd have to be crash testing, documentation confirming tests/results etc ? this is expensive, very!

SlowBlowin

The testing for type approval includes:

Cell/Module/Pack level testing
Cycle life (charge/discharge cycling)
Cycle life (simulated drive/usage profiles)
Calendar life
HPCC (Hybrid Pulse Power Characterization)
Abuse testing
Fire exposure
Safety certification testing
Overcharge
Short circuit
Crush/Nail Penetration
Mechanical shock
Thermal /Humidity cycling
Thermal shock
Altitude
Simulated environment: vibration, temperature, humidity
Failure analysis
BMS simulation and monitoring
Connector/Service disconnect cycling and durability

SlowBlowin

SlowBlowin wrote: »

The testing for type approval includes:

Cell/Module/Pack level testing
Cycle life (charge/discharge cycling)
Cycle life (simulated drive/usage profiles)
Calendar life
HPCC (Hybrid Pulse Power Characterization)
Abuse testing
Fire exposure
Safety certification testing
Overcharge
Short circuit
Crush/Nail Penetration
Mechanical shock
Thermal /Humidity cycling
Thermal shock
Altitude
Simulated environment: vibration, temperature, humidity
Failure analysis
BMS simulation and monitoring
Connector/Service disconnect cycling and durability

Yikes! yes, very expensive!

Whether it applies to aftermarket batteries I don't know.

SlowBlowin

From what I have read on old EU proposals they are worried about fitting non type approved batteries for garage mechanics safety as well as the driver safety.

zg3409

In terms of insurance you could chance it and hope you get away with it but the downsides are considerable.

In the event of an accident you could be charged by Gardai for driving without valid insurance, thus getting penalty points or a ban, and then have difficulty ever getting insurance again.

Insurers often use any excuse to not pay. One assessor I saw photographed the thread depth of each tyre when they all were OK, as they needed OK proof. They check vin numbers, engine numbers, modified air filters, non factory exhaust.... They can download car computer data to see the speed the car crashed at.

One insurer I spoke with said any modification of any type would invalidate insurance, including non factory fitted wheels.

I saw an assessor on TV refuse a claim because of a non factory bumper that was not notified.

So you would need to go down the modified car route, and then insurer may want an engineers report to say car is safe. You would end up paying a slight premium

Petrol/diesel cars converted to electric have been approved and insured in Ireland and are road legal, so it can be done.

As for the cost of upgrading versus selling your car to someone who can live with the existing range, and buying another car with the range you need, it may not make financial sense for most, particular as you would be reselling a modified car later which might not have the value you predict, and suspension and non battery parts may be 10+ years old. Irish people love cars with recent registration plates, so age of reg plate matters to resell value.

Having said all that an Irish guy I met swapped all his old leaf battery cells for newer less worn ones, and got increased range, no computers required, just a lot of spanner and cell swapping. After a few trips the car realised the cells held more charge and the reported range went up to match the cells installed.

See
https://www.tog.ie/2018/10/october-2018-social-battery-swap-in-electric-vehicle-talk/

If this could be a 2 hour pack swap, then labour would be minimal. Throw in a friendly engineers report, and a friendly insurance broker, then pedal to the metal.

SlowBlowin

zg3409 wrote: »

Petrol/diesel cars converted to electric have been approved and insured in Ireland and are road legal, so it can be done.

An informative post..

I have done many hours of research on this, but I have yet to find an insured legal converted (ICE car to EV, or EV to EV) that didn't use a module that was type approved by an auto manufacturer (most use Tesla modules).

Have you (or anyone else here) come across a conversion where someone used their own cells, and built their own modules as the OP is doing and managed to insure it ?

unkel

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I have done many hours of research on this, but I have yet to find an insured legal converted (ICE car to EV, or EV to EV) that didn't use a module that was type approved by an auto manufacturer (most use Tesla modules).

Have you (or anyone else here) come across a conversion where someone used their own cells, and built their own modules as the OP is doing and managed to insure it ?

That's interesting. How about Damien Maguire here in Ireland? I'm not quite sure what he uses for batteries, but he specifically mentions NCTing his cars once converted and I get the impression all his cars are 100% road legal, so presumably also fully insured and the conversion disclosed to his insurer

Linky

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

That's interesting. How about Damien Maguire here in Ireland? I'm not quite sure what he uses for batteries, but he specifically mentions NCTing his cars once converted and I get the impression all his cars are 100% road legal, so presumably also fully insured and the conversion disclosed to his insurer

Linky

Looks like he uses all Tesla or Nissan (Type approved) modules, I am unable to find anyone who has built their own modules and got the car legal.

pullandbang

zg3409 wrote: »

Having said all that an Irish guy I met swapped all his old leaf battery cells for newer less worn ones, and got increased range, no computers required, just a lot of spanner and cell swapping. After a few trips the car realised the cells held more charge and the reported range went up to match the cells installed.

See
https://www.tog.ie/2018/10/october-2018-social-battery-swap-in-electric-vehicle-talk/

If this could be a 2 hour pack swap, then labour would be minimal. Throw in a friendly engineers report, and a friendly insurance broker, then pedal to the metal.

The chap in that video, Jonathan, is a friend of mine. That battery swap was pretty easy for someone who had never done one before. Turned out a great job in the end and he's still driving his 2011 Leaf.

unkel

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Looks like he uses all Tesla or Nissan (Type approved) modules

Even for his €1000 BMW 3-series conversion?

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Even for his €1000 BMW 3-series conversion?

I have been watching his videos this morning and battery details are few and far between, but from what I have seen so far he only uses manufactured batteries.

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Even for his €1000 BMW 3-series conversion?

The "1000 euro" conversion uses these batteries:

https://lithiumwerks.com/products/modules/u-charge-xp/

Tested and certified batteries for commercial EV applications (buses etc)..

unkel

Valence! Told you they were good

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Valence! Told you they were good

I know, and I still have not got mine !! Hes under strict orders that we get any he has spare..

I wonder what the sub 1000 euros refers to ? Just the capacitor in the controller's not far off that !!! Hes currently running 12 of those batteries too, thats a few grand surely !

unkel

It was supposed to be sub 1000, everything included, even the donor car (in fairness he probably got that for EUR100 tops )

But I have my doubts about that although he does seem to get stuff as favours and re-uses pretty worthless stuff and he must have raided his own stock of stuff too

SlowBlowin

This thread has demonstrated 2 things to me:

1. There is a distinct lack of clarity about the legalities of making your own battery and installing it. It seems that this is a very risky avenue to pursue as a commercial service.

2. There is a demand from Gen 1 leaf owners (and prospective owners) for a solution.

The OP is obviously very skilled in dissembling the Nissan battery, and its general construction. To my mind, if he wants to make money from his skills, then the less risky way would be to establish a supply of suitable Leaf batteries (later generation) and offer the replacement/upgrade service. I wonder how many of the batteries find their way to scrap yards and battery recycling centres ?

Markcheese

He's hardly making his own battery though is he ? He's assembling a pack of lg chem cells ,
( Although if many cells make a battery then I suppose he is )
And if those cells are manufacturer (lg) approved to work in certain tolerances ,and the leafs existing infrastructure fits those then is there a problem ?
Is it the difference between using a Bosch part in your vw versus the Bosch part that comes in a vw box ...?

SlowBlowin

Markcheese wrote: »

He's hardly making his own battery though is he ? He's assembling a pack of lg chem cells

Yes he is.

He is using from Nissan BMS and charging system, but the battery he has made.

There are no details of how the modules and battery are constructed, and its the construction that makes a battery safe or unsafe (fire risk etc).

Do you remember a while back when Samsung released the phone with the dodgy battery that burst into flames ? Imagine something with over 1000 times the power going up in flames. Fire risk is generally cased by shorts (the cells he is using are prone to this as they have a very soft pouch, LG stresses this point), or thermal issues cased by poor heat conduction in the design or the cells being used out of spec.

I am not saying the OPs battery is going to burst into flames, I dont know, no one does as its construction is unknown and its not been subjected to the relevant testing.

Logged on to the boards the first time in a few months. This thread reminds me why I never login to boards anymore. I'll just log off now and leave yous to it.

OP, good luck with the business. I'm pretty sure I'll keep the current LEAF forever and at some stage it will need battery refresh which will will be a fraction of cost compared to a full new car. Much can be said about a mechanically very simple car that you can just keep driving and repairing as needed.

n97 mini

SlowBlowin wrote: »

This thread has demonstrated 2 things to me:

1. There is a distinct lack of clarity about the legalities of making your own battery and installing it. It seems that this is a very risky avenue to pursue as a commercial service.

Rather than speculate, it'd be better to be analytical. For example, a product can be self CE certified if all the components were already CE certified. There is probably more than just CE certification involved, so it'd be useful to know what that is.

n97 mini

samih wrote: »

Logged on to the boards the first time in a few months. This thread reminds me why I never login to boards anymore. I'll just log off now and leave yous to it.

OP, good luck with the business. I'm pretty sure I'll keep the current LEAF forever and at some stage it will need battery refresh which will will be a fraction of cost compared to a full new car. Much can be said about a mechanically very simple car that you can just keep driving and repairing as needed.

To be fair it's a lot more civilised in here than it is in most of the rest of the site, but there is a bit of nay saying. I'm sure the OP will find customers, maybe not mass market, but there is definitely a niche there.

SlowBlowin

n97 mini wrote: »

Rather than speculate, it'd be better to be analytical. For example, a product can be self CE certified if all the components were already CE certified. There is probably more than just CE certification involved, so it'd be useful to know what that is.

OK, so after reading your post I took your advice to end speculation and contacted several insurance companies advertising EV insurance. None would entertain quoting on the car without a full independent engineers report on the battery conversation and its construction, even then they said they would most likely not insure the car with the non Nissan/non automotive type approved battery.

The OPs first post was basically pay your money and I will do the conversion. No mention of the difficult/impossible task of insuring, the reduction in value of the car, and most importantly the safety aspects.

I guess all the flak on here is from people who dont mind having an uninsured car, are willing to risk peoples safety for the perceived financial savings, and happy to recommend that you keep it secret from your insurer (illegal). So please, rather than just give me grief, someone buy the conversation that you are so positive about and let us know your experiences.

It really would be a great to breath new life into early Leafs, but it seems the only legal route is to buy the OPs battery, hope its safe, and self insure the car (if you have a few million euros lying around). Alternatively buy a replacement Nissan battery conversation from the dutch companies.

It's amazing the negative comments towards the few of us who have questioned this venture and it's riskiness, will these who support the OP pay out if it all goes tits up for someone who shells out many thousands on an unproven battery not type approved and can't be insured ? or will they be the first to volunteer ? but perhaps it's all good info for the OP so he has something to think about. This could be an eye opener for him as to what to expect when dealing with the public not to mention a lawsuit should something happen.

So in reality this thread has been helpful to warn People of the risk so if they do install one of these batteries that to go in with their eyes wide open.

Stealthirl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Would you?

Do you need to inform your insurance if you put a bigger petrol tank on car?

Yes as it is a modification of the OEM spec and if you put a bigger petrol tank in an ICE it would be the same and might require an engineers report. Some insurance companies were freaking out over people putting winter/all season tyres on. Any excuse to not pay out....

pszemo

Just to be clear.... I'm not doing any conversations, I have replace old part from the car using original LG cells. No difference in power suspension, weight. If anyone can bring l40 or l62 leaf battery pack I can install
as well on older leaf.

kierank01

SlowBlowin wrote: »

It really would be a great to breath new life into early Leafs, but it seems the only legal route is to buy the OPs battery, hope its safe, and self insure the car (if you have a few million euros lying around). Alternatively buy a replacement Nissan battery conversation from the dutch companies.

What is it that the Dutch companies are doing differently that makes those ok?

I have only purchased a 2nd hand leaf, which has 12 bars of health(80% on leafspy), so not looking to do anything immediately.

have been looking at one Dutch company that are offering a number of upgrades including 11kw & 22kw charging options, the only mention, that I can see on testing/approval etc is one mention in a youtube video, that says they have got Dutch approval, which, they say, makes it EU approved.

pszemo

kierank01 wrote: »

What is it that the Dutch companies are doing differently that makes those ok?

I have only purchased a 2nd hand leaf, which has 12 bars of health(80% on leafspy), so not looking to do anything immediately.

have been looking at one Dutch company that are offering a number of upgrades including 11kw & 22kw charging options, the only mention, that I can see on testing/approval etc is one mention in a youtube video, that says they have got Dutch approval, which, they say, makes it EU approved.

They add extra batteries (using own modules) in the trunk as a extender battery.

SlowBlowin

kierank01 wrote: »

What is it that the Dutch companies are doing differently that makes those ok?

I have only purchased a 2nd hand leaf, which has 12 bars of health(80% on leafspy), so not looking to do anything immediately.

have been looking at one Dutch company that are offering a number of upgrades including 11kw & 22kw charging options, the only mention, that I can see on testing/approval etc is one mention in a youtube video, that says they have got Dutch approval, which, they say, makes it EU approved.

The difference is they replace Nissan modules with Nissan modules.

I posted a link to their web site earlier.